Ospreys don't need NWQ players.

First topic message reminder :

Watching the Os this season, reading the same comments by the fans about the players they don't want and there is little recognition for the NWQs.

Could we do without them next year?

The English employ residency qualifying players as do the Irish.
Ther project system has made absolutely no difference to the Irish set up as not one players has graduated to the full national team.
The system is being droped as pointless.
No difference is made in Ireland between players who are qualified through residency and those via birth/parenting either.
I have no doubt Strauss or Diack would get selected by Ireland if they were deemed the best in their positions - they are not selected for the sole reason there are better player eligable through other means.

I suspect there is no meaningful difference here - just one of perception due to our different organizational structures; with respect to the professional game.

I feel the same way as biltong. I'd like to see Leinster with an all Irish squad, and I don't really want to see foreign players playing for Ireland. But the IRFU saw the reality of the rules. Other nations are playing foreign born players. So they put a system in place to make sure they can take advantage of the residency rule too if necessary.

The general idea of the new IRFU rules is a good one. Reduce the number of foreign players in the Irish game, particularly ones who cannot qualify to play for Ireland, and are therefore useless to the IRFU's biggest money spinner, the Irish test team. As usual they did it in a top down, autocratic way which is frustrating for the coaches of the provinces. Their rigid rules on how much game time a player can have are annoying. But I particularly hate it when they meddle in who should play what position. Leave that to the experts, the coaches.

The IRFU should get away from the obsession with the day to day minute details of player selection etc. and concentrate on broader things like growing the game. They're becoming like a school headmaster who busies himself with answering phones, putting out minor fires, and becoming to involved in the day to day stuff, and loses focus on his broader job of driving up education standards in general.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I feel the same way as biltong. I'd like to see Leinster with an all Irish squad, and I don't really want to see foreign players playing for Ireland. But the IRFU saw the reality of the rules. Other nations are playing foreign born players. So they put a system in place to make sure they can take advantage of the residency rule too if necessary.

The general idea of the new IRFU rules is a good one. Reduce the number of foreign players in the Irish game, particularly ones who cannot qualify to play for Ireland, and are therefore useless to the IRFU's biggest money spinner, the Irish test team. As usual they did it in a top down, autocratic way which is frustrating for the coaches of the provinces. Their rigid rules on how much game time a player can have are annoying. But I particularly hate it when they meddle in who should play what position. Leave that to the experts, the coaches.

The IRFU should get away from the obsession with the day to day minute details of player selection etc. and concentrate on broader things like growing the game. They're becoming like a school headmaster who busies himself with answering phones, putting out minor fires, and becoming to involved in the day to day stuff, and loses focus on his broader job of driving up education standards in general.

I don't think the Irish rendition is too dissimilar to the Welsh version. Expensive overseas non welsh players are being gradually subtracted from the regional equation, there are project players at some regions, Pretorius and Dirksen spring to mind. Both good players.

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

geoff998rugby wrote:The English employ residency qualifying players as do the Irish.
Ther project system has made absolutely no difference to the Irish set up as not one players has graduated to the full national team.
The system is being droped as pointless.
No difference is made in Ireland between players who are qualified through residency and those via birth/parenting either.
I have no doubt Strauss or Diack would get selected by Ireland if they were deemed the best in their positions - they are not selected for the sole reason there are better player eligable through other means.

I suspect there is no meaningful difference here - just one of perception due to our different organizational structures; with respect to the professional game.

You seem to be missing the point again. It's not about employing people who may attain qualification. It's about having a system that 'encourages' it. The fact it's never brought in any decent players is irrelevant (it's rather obvious since the Provinces tend to bring over the best foreign players they can and they tend to be capped, the 'lesser' players are the ones eligible as they haven't been capped). It has been a rather pointless exercise that just makes them look bad (to me).

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

No I think Bill is saying that he doesnt want to see players imported from other countries taking the places of young local guys that he would rather see play for his team. Many would also agree with him.

There is a certain sense of pride every time you watch your club and the latest local lad you may even know in person pulls on the shirt he dreamed of playing in all his youth.... That is a very important part of the game.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

No I think Bill is saying that he doesnt want to see players imported from other countries taking the places of young local guys that he would rather see play for his team. Many would also agree with him.

There is a certain sense of pride every time you watch your club and the latest local lad you may even know in person pulls on the shirt he dreamed of playing in all his youth.... That is a very important part of the game.

Yeah, I don't care about that. I welcome people into my community

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

No I think Bill is saying that he doesnt want to see players imported from other countries taking the places of young local guys that he would rather see play for his team. Many would also agree with him.

There is a certain sense of pride every time you watch your club and the latest local lad you may even know in person pulls on the shirt he dreamed of playing in all his youth.... That is a very important part of the game.

Yeah, I don't care about that. I welcome people into my community

We are talking about the regional rugby club not the community...

You're getting me a little confused. What do you mean by "Regional club rugby"? Are you on about union lead teams such as the Irish Provinces? Or do you mean merged private clubs such as the Welsh regions and London Irish, or do you mean clubs, such as the English, French, Welsh, etc clubs?

Other than the union lead teams are they not for the community to play in? You know, move to an area for work and play for the rugby team. Or are your teams local teams for local people? You'll have none of that round there.

Hammer your 'encourage' is my 'allow'.

Bit of a 'dots on a pin head' to be honest.

As I say being ditched anyway

HammerofThunor wrote:You're getting me a little confused. What do you mean by "Regional club rugby"? Are you on about union lead teams such as the Irish Provinces? Or do you mean merged private clubs such as the Welsh regions and London Irish, or do you mean clubs, such as the English, French, Welsh, etc clubs?

Other than the union lead teams are they not for the community to play in? You know, move to an area for work and play for the rugby team. Or are your teams local teams for local people? You'll have none of that round there.

We are talking about the Ospreys. It is in the title of the thread.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about that. I welcome people into my community

It is really polite that you do, however it is a bit different working in sport and playing for your local team or country than working in manufacturing, hospitals, etc.. Next you'll be accusing people of racism when that isn't the case.

I suppose in England and France you can afford to have foreign players and still get a lot of test level representatives due to the number of professional teams and the size of their squads. In other nations you can't. Sometimes you need a couple in Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc... South Africa's depth is ridiculously good. If they kept all the SA players in SA then they might not need help from outside. But sometimes even they do, as do the other benchmark rugby nations Aus and New Zealand. It is perfectly normal to want to see a reduction in help from outside, as you do in all types of work. Developing sports and athletes just varies compared to what you say though.

Morgannwg wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:
Yeah, I don't care about that. I welcome people into my community

It is really polite that you do, however it is a bit different working in sport and playing for your local team or country than working in manufacturing, hospitals, etc.. Next you'll be accusing people of racism when that isn't the case.

I suppose in England and France you can afford to have foreign players and still get a lot of test level representatives due to the number of professional teams and the size of their squads. In other nations you can't. Sometimes you need a couple in Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc... South Africa's depth is ridiculously good. If they kept all the SA players in SA then they might not need help from outside. But sometimes even they do, as do the other benchmark rugby nations Aus and New Zealand. It is perfectly normal to want to see a reduction in help from outside, as you do in all types of work. Developing sports and athletes just varies compared to what you say though.

Mostly for financial reasons

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

No I think Bill is saying that he doesnt want to see players imported from other countries taking the places of young local guys that he would rather see play for his team. Many would also agree with him.

There is a certain sense of pride every time you watch your club and the latest local lad you may even know in person pulls on the shirt he dreamed of playing in all his youth.... That is a very important part of the game.

I don't think hammer wants to get me. It is really simple.

South Africa has a great history and tradition of rugby. we have fables, legends and history only surpassed by the all blacks, when you are a boy at birth, the first thing your father buys you is a rugby ball, our babies where Springbok jumpers, their rooms are painted with springbok heroes on the wall, the forst thought of a father is my son will one day be a springbok.

When we grow up our fathers (and me now with my son) run next to the field, willing our kids on, giving them advice, scream at the referee when he misses something, as kids we are heroes at our schools because we play rugby, the prettiest girls in school date rugby players. It is our life, and the ultimate is the springbok jumper. It is in our blood. It is in our genetics.

There are no prouder moment for a father when hs son is selected to play for his school. Sunday Braai's are dominated with rugby discussions, and you can see the pride of a father a mile away when his son runs out for his team, we walk more upright, our knuckles stop dragging. For me to think that there are South African rugby players even considering the option of representing another country is sacraligious. It goes against every grain in my soul.

HammerofThunor wrote:the RFU give money to the clubs based on the numbers of EQ players. If they go some for NEQ who may qualify one day then fair enough, but they don't.

Thats not true. The RFU do pay clubs for project players, but they do not disclose how much they pay them.

biltongbek wrote:To further elaborate.

Playing professional rugby is a job, like anything else. you perform and make a name for yourself and you make money out of it.

That's all good.

When representing you country it is an honour. different story.

Representing your local club, province, or region is an honour to Bill. Its just the first step on the honours list at the upper echelons of the game.

I thing this whole thing could be looked at another way around and I will ask, which foreigners, (Non Welsh Qualified players) do the Ospreys actually need?

I dont think any of their NWQs benefit them or make them a stronger team.

I don't know but what would most Ospreys supporters prefer or more realistically would have preferred.

1) A successful region in the league & HC with a small blend of top quality NWQ players to compliment the 'local boys' or

2) A team solely of Welsh players & continued lack of progress in the HC & probably a future struggle against the relative cash rich Irish Provinces?

Will either of these options bring more supporters in or is the problem disinterest & financial?

If I want to see a team full of academy players/local lads I can watch our 'A' team. Although this season at Wasps it seems most of our academy lads were in the fist team squad!

biltongbek wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

What do mean by domestic rugby? Do you mean non-representative rugby (i.e. not international)? I'm pretty happy that people from other countries want to come here to work (in any industry). If they want to stay more the better. I'm generally against saying that someone who immigrates as an adult cannot be considered a full class citizen (which is what you are saying if you say they cannot represent that country).

No I think Bill is saying that he doesnt want to see players imported from other countries taking the places of young local guys that he would rather see play for his team. Many would also agree with him.

There is a certain sense of pride every time you watch your club and the latest local lad you may even know in person pulls on the shirt he dreamed of playing in all his youth.... That is a very important part of the game.

I don't think hammer wants to get me. It is really simple.

South Africa has a great history and tradition of rugby. we have fables, legends and history only surpassed by the all blacks, when you are a boy at birth, the first thing your father buys you is a rugby ball, our babies where Springbok jumpers, their rooms are painted with springbok heroes on the wall, the forst thought of a father is my son will one day be a springbok.

When we grow up our fathers (and me now with my son) run next to the field, willing our kids on, giving them advice, scream at the referee when he misses something, as kids we are heroes at our schools because we play rugby, the prettiest girls in school date rugby players. It is our life, and the ultimate is the springbok jumper. It is in our blood. It is in our genetics.

There are no prouder moment for a father when hs son is selected to play for his school. Sunday Braai's are dominated with rugby discussions, and you can see the pride of a father a mile away when his son runs out for his team, we walk more upright, our knuckles stop dragging. For me to think that there are South African rugby players even considering the option of representing another country is sacraligious. It goes against every grain in my soul.

Bilton, are you sure you were not secretly brought up in Wales, and that in fact you are Welsh ? Because, everything you have just mentioned, has happened to me and is still happening here Are our countries really that fanatical ? All you have to do is change the words from springbok to to Welsh international and South Africa for Wales and seriously you could paint a picture of Wales with it.

Lordowlais, then you get exactly where I am coming from.

biltongbek wrote:Lordowlais, then you get exactly where I am coming from.

Too right, and that is why I agreed with you at the start of this thread. Rugby is much more than just a sport in this country, everywhere you find a patch of grass there are rugby posts on it, every village has a rugby club, infact there ar so many rugby clubs to support, that is why the regions do not get as much support because everybody are supporting their local village sides, but we all come together for Wales and that is what is important. It is more or less a religion to the most people of this country.

Sorry, it was another thread I agreed with you on, the one with the poll about foreign players.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I don't know but what would most Ospreys supporters prefer or more realistically would have preferred.

1) A successful region in the league & HC with a small blend of top quality NWQ players to compliment the 'local boys' or

2) A team solely of Welsh players & continued lack of progress in the HC & probably a future struggle against the relative cash rich Irish Provinces?

Will either of these options bring more supporters in or is the problem disinterest & financial?

If I want to see a team full of academy players/local lads I can watch our 'A' team. Although this season at Wasps it seems most of our academy lads were in the fist team squad!

Trev, I think most would want option 1, but option 2 seems to be working well for the Scarlets attendance wise. I think both options would see a very very big leap in attendances. I think the Scarlets' attendance have increased 10%+ this season, and that's mostly down to us playing the local lads that come from the region, which is what the supporters wants to see.

Biltong, we seem to be having cross wires here. I thought we were talking about domestic rugby (which to me is not international representative rugby). I understand other people's views on representative rugby even if I don't agree with them. I was talking about domestic rugby. I have no problems with foreign players playing in domestic rugby. I understand that unions need to ensure that they have a healthy supply qualified players so they may limit or discourage large numbers of foreign players but that's for practical reasons.

Thats not true. The RFU do pay clubs for project players, but they do not disclose how much they pay them.

Do you have any evidence of that whatsoever? Or is it another of your fabricated claims?

As for the Ospreys, if they are weak in any particular area then they have decision. In a sensible order for financial and international reasons:

1) Is there someone in the academy good enough?
2) Is there someone in a feeder club good enough?
3) Is there someone in another region good enough?
4) Then look into foreign based players (Welsh exile first if you wish). Balance the costs and benefits and if there isn't anyone out there you need to bring in a sub-par player from above.

HammerofThunor wrote:As for the Ospreys, if they are weak in any particular area then they have decision. In a sensible order for financial and international reasons:

1) Is there someone in the academy good enough?
2) Is there someone in a feeder club good enough?
3) Is there someone in another region good enough?
4) Then look into foreign based players (Welsh exile first if you wish). Balance the costs and benefits and if there isn't anyone out there you need to bring in a sub-par player from above.

I think the hardest position to be filled with local younger players is prop where generally you would peak at around 26-30 years. It would be a big ask for a young lad of 18-20 to prop against an established top notch experienced prop and nowadays you would be looking at 2 in each position because they are subbed around 60 mins generally.
To constrict your choice ignoring NWQ players will make it tough to comete at the higher levels of the game.

If we want to compete on two fronts then yes we need NWQ players. They are there all year round and are experienced seasoned professionals. Like others have said with possibly more of our squad been called up for Welsh duty next year the last thing we want to do is get rid of NWQ's. To be honest i don't care about how many NWQ's there are if they are helping the Ospreys win. I'd like us to sign some better ones though! If we want to do an Edinburgh (do crap in the pro12, which i don't want us to do) then i guess we don't need them...

We need some quality outside backs and if we could afford to buy some from the SH then you bet your bottom dollar that i'd want them to. Our forward pack is fine as it is though imo, another no.8 and lock would be good though.

In a dream world i'd love to see squads like this rotated.

1.Bevington
2.Hibbard
3.A Jones
4.AWJones (C)
5.Evans
6.R Jones
7.Tipuric
8.Bearman
9.Fotualih'i
10.Biggar
11.Lelia Masaga (new signing, Chavangha would have been good though!)
12.Beck
13.Waylon Murray (new signing, Kahui in my dreams!)
14.Dirksen
15.Cameron Shephard/Mark Gerrard (new signing)

1.D Jones
2.Baldwin
3.Rees
4.Gough (getting old...)
5.(new lock)
6.King
7.Lewis
8.JT (get rid of Stowers)
9.Webb
10.Morgan
11.Fussell
12.G Owen
13.Bishop
14.Walker/Phillips (please start playing well Phillips!)
15.R Jones