Rabbo Pro 12 Final thread(Teams included)

First topic message reminder :

Right, now, we know the teams, we know the venue, how do we think this one will pan out ? Although there is less at stake, I think that this game will be a lot better than HC final, and with Leinster having home advantage, it is hard to look past a Leinster win, but the Ospreys have been to the RDS this season and won so they will not fear going to Dublin, also Tandy has come in and breathed fresh air into the squad, but I still think Leinster will win but it will be very close, probably just a score in it. So I am going for Leinster by 3pts.

LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney 14: Fergus McFadden 13: Brian O'Driscoll 12: Gordon D'Arcy 11: Isa Nacewa 10: Jonathan Sexton 9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe 2: Sean Cronin 3: Mike Ross 4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN 5: Devin Toner 6: Kevin McLaughlin 7: Shane Jennings 8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss 17: Cian Healy/Jack McGrath 18: Nathan White 19: Brad Thorn 20: Dominic Ryan 21: John Cooney 22: Ian Madigan 23: David Kearney

OSPREYS:

15 Richard Fussell
14 Hanno Dirksen
13 Andrew Bishop
12 Ashley Beck
11 Shane Williams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Rhys Webb
1 Paul James
2 Richard Hibbard
3 Adam Jones
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt)
5 Ian Evans
6 Ryan Jones
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Joe Bearman
Replacements:
16 Scott Baldwin
17 Ryan Bevington
18 Aaron Jarvis
19 James King
20 Tom Smith
21 Kahn Fotuali'i
22 Matthew Morgan
23 Tom Isaacs[/quote]

Marcus, that's a great post!

Anyway, I'm off. Thanks for your company folks. Let's do it all again for the Baabaas game next weekend.

Oh and those of you who an get BBC Wales - Scrum V is on at 7pm on BBC 2.

Rodders I wasn't really paying attention for the second yellow, nor know a whole lot about scrummaging (something I hope to change). Why was the second yellow the wrong call, and why should it have gone to Leinster? Because that was a game changing decision.

rodders
It's not a case of who goes down first the ref has to decide who is guilty of collapsing the scrum

Oh, just before I go, I think the Ospreys poor showing in Europe was partly due to all the problems they had up until January. They really should've got shot of Johnson and Holley earlier. The squad came together under Tandy. He's done a fab job considering he's a novice coach.

I agree dreamer but the way I see it is he warned Leinster it would be yellow and then Jones deliberately drops the scrum whilst Poite is on the other side to get the yellow. He did it repeadedly and finally got pinged a few scrums later.

What are the touch judges doing? Jones should have went to the bin and it would have been a different game.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Calmed down a bit now... Fair play to the Leinster fans on here - on the whole both gracious and honest about how much winning this would have meant to them (no devalued league rubbish!). They are a remarkable team - but the Ospreys really seem to have the "Indian sign" over them at the moment. Hate to keep banging on about the ref, but he did his best to ruin a fabulous match today. Have always been bemused by people who big Poite up, he's always seemed rubbish to me.

Well done to Shane - two brilliant ties (that actual dummy pass to himself for the second was pure Hollywood!). Nice to finish with something meaningful and not just a forward roll in a defeat!

Ospreys have really developed as the season went on. Huge impact from Ryan J, Adam, AWJ and Ian Evans as they came back from 6N, and Beck, Biggar, Tupiric, Dirksen and Fussel have been great all season. Bishop played very well today.

Hope they all have a great night in Dublin! Nice to have some silverwear at the regions after a rather depressing regional season up until now!

Bravo Ospreys!

Well said

You can pretty much get away with anything when it comes to Poite and scrums. It was the same in the final v Northampton last year. Jones was very cynical got away with an awful lot at scrum time and managed to get two Leinster players carded for absolutely nothing. Very crafty. Ospreys are a good team and it was always was going to be tough but can't help but feel a little cheated.

Cari wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Anyone who says the Rabo doesn't mean anything to the Irish teams doesn't know what they are talking about. Great ad for the league.

Absolute.
Great ad for the League and a great ad for Rugby. Same as the Premiership final yesterday.
And some people still don't get the excitement and benefit of a playoff and One Big Final.
.

Funny you should mention that, weren't the favourites to win yesterday, Leicester? Leinster were the favourites today too. Just goes to show how unpredictable rugby is!

Makes the sport even better (except if you are a fan of the team that lost).

Cymroglan wrote:rodders
It's not a case of who goes down first the ref has to decide who is guilty of collapsing the scrum

Yes it is, the prop who goes down 1st is the one should be penalised and that is Jones. Hes deliberately dropping his shoulder whilst the LH is trying to keep the scrum up.

I don't think the 3 wins against Leinster prove Ospreys are the better side as said previously. Do not forget, that we had an almost identical scene to the previous game, where the Leinster front row ended up undergoing huge changes, due to the first choice players suffering from injury. Couple that with the Ospreys having one of the best tight 5s around, and clearly you are going to be at a huge disadvantage. Yet Leinster still almost won there.

Its a hard loss to take but i suppose you cant win every game at the end of the day

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Rodders I wasn't really paying attention for the second yellow, nor know a whole lot about scrummaging (something I hope to change). Why was the second yellow the wrong call, and why should it have gone to Leinster? Because that was a game changing decision.

Jones dropped his bind and pulled the scrum down.

Rodders
He was not down first if anything they went down at the same time.
You need to accept that the ref is the man on the spot and continually criticising him when decisions go against you is not the way forward.

Look its done now. Ospreys are deserving champions because they had more points on the board, Shane Williams finishes were exceptional.

Leinster have every right to feel cheated for those yellow cards.

If that sounds contradictory, well thats just how I feel and can't express it any other way. I don't believe the better side won today.

Leinster wanted to play rugby and the Ospreys wanted to milk cynical penalties at the scrum and Poite fell for it.

That is a pretty patronising post there Cymroglan. Where is rodders "continually criticising" the referee?

Did you not see the build up to Shane's first try Rodders? If that's not playing rugby then I don't know what is.

Rory if the post was addressed towards you I would have put your name in there.

Ospreys played some nice stuff dreamer but they set their stall out with the scrummaging. Very poor sportsmanship.

Cymroglan wrote:Rory if the post was addressed towards you I would have put your name in there.

I don't care who you were addressing it to, stop being so condescending towards people and I won't have to point it out.

All the hulabaloo over the scrum shouldn't be overshadowing the brilliant skills on show from both sides. But it is. Because the scrum is clearly the biggest problem in rugby. Two yellow cards? Do we really know if they were deserved? No. Does the ref? I think he's guessing.

In pretty much every match is normal now for the commentators to spend a while talking about how it's a blight on the game, as scrum after scrum goes down and the crowd boo's.

Remove the hit? Have an extra scrum ref for the other side? I dunno. I just wish they'd do something. They said the would after the world cup. It didn't happen.

Look I'm being a bit unfair on the Ospreys, they are deserved champions.

I just feel that the game was decided largely on the referee's interpretation of the scrums, which in my view was incorrect.

Have a good evening everyone

Rory stop being so immature Rodders would not have been offended by my post because he knows full well there was no malice in it.
All you are doing is trying to cause trouble when there is no need for it,

rodders wrote:Ospreys played some nice stuff dreamer but they set their stall out with the scrummaging. Very poor sportsmanship.

Completely disagree Rodders. Sorry but I think you just highlighting the scrums and not commenting more on all the rugby the O's did play (which was a heck of a lot) is doing them a big disservice.

THat was a cracking final with a load of tries, from some great play. There was more to it than scrums. Poite might have got one of the yellows wrong but as has been pointed out, he could easily have yellowed Reddan for a high tackle on Shane. (And Ryan and AWJ could also have seen yellows too for some of their infringements)

THat's the way the game pans out.

Leinster had a big lead and let it slip, credit where it's due to the O's I think.

Didn't most of you guys get a feeling this was going to be the O's game from the 20th minute onwards - They just always looked like they could move up a gear when they needed to - Great resilience and a huge credit to Steve Tandy who is looking like a great coach in the making

Pot. Kettle. Black..

3rdGrandslamCame wrote:The Ospreys were poor in Europe because a large chunk of the squad are young and inexperienced in that sort of environment.

Wales winning the grand slam and the Ospreys beating Leinster and Munter 3 times each shows that the future is bright and the talent is definitely there.

I just hope we finally crack europe in the next season or two.

The Ospreys arent poor in Europe, we have had a lot of bad luck overall, this season we lost at home to Saracens because the ref had no idea how to referee a scrum, while the Draw in Italy was probably our Waterloo. It could of easily been so different, but then again if Johnson was stil coach we wouldnt of even been in the final today.

We will see next season what the Tandy effect has on the Ospreys.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Pot. Kettle. Black..

Here you go, saw this on a different forum, very useful.

Thank you..

RubyGuby wrote:Didn't most of you guys get a feeling this was going to be the O's game from the 20th minute onwards - They just always looked like they could move up a gear when they needed to - Great resilience and a huge credit to Steve Tandy who is looking like a great coach in the making

I felt we had a chance in the 58th minute when I posted on here, I thought I could see Leinster start to tire. Also the referee seemed to have figured out Leinsters tactics to deal with our scrum. There isn't much credit on here for the Ospreys front 5, but Hibbard, Adam ássey, Ianto, and Alun Wyn are a fearsome unit, very big, and nasty to be honest. Very few people can mix it with Adam Jones in the scrums.

Scrums were pretty even. Leinster drove O's back a few times O's drove Leinster back a few times. Jones however was very savvy and knew Poite is clueless and knew exactly when to collapse the scrum. Maybe that makes you a better scrummager but with a more clued in ref I think there would have been nothing in the front 5 and the penalty/card count would have been more even. It really was the difference today as Leinster had the edge almost everywhere else bar the lineout possibly.

Alyn - there will be plenty of credit for the O's - if its not coming now its mostly cause people are hurting - it was a game any team could have won just like Ireland v Wales. I'm begiining to think the world needs to rethink the "Luck of the Irish" saying and rebrand it with anoher nation!

From a Welsh perspective I am just glad there were no injuries to key payers

Cymroglan wrote: From a Welsh perspective I am just glad there were no injuries to key payers

I'm just glad there were no unjuries Cymro

leinsterbaby, I don't know if Jones cheated at the scrums. I actually think very few people know what they're on about in there. I think it's funny, and convenient, that all the Welsh people are so sure that Jones did nothing wrong and all the Irish are so sure that he was cheating. I ye really sure?

But we always get into this scrummaging mess with Poite. I think it was a very even game. The fact is Leinster lost by a point. So it's obvious the Leinster side are gonna be upset about Poite and the scrummaging. I was also astonished that the 2nd yellow came without warning. That's unusual.

All we can do is accept the result though guys. Leinster are Europe's number 1 team still. Osprey's got the result. There was a bit of controversy. But there's no room on the trophy to engrave the pro's and con's of Poite's performance in detail. And we have at least two chances for revenge next year. That's the beauty of sport. It never ends.

I am Welsh and from Swansea, but I agree with the Irish posters here today. The Ospreys scrum tactic appeared to be hit hard and downwards causing dangerous scrum collapses, they have been doing it all season. I suspect that Poite had no idea what was going on, certainly for the second sin bin it was Adam Jones who slipped his binding so it should have been penalty to Leinster.

Well done to the Ospreys though the were by far second best for most of the match but took full advantagle of some clueless refereeing.

so the 'heineken cup' leinster aren't unbeatable after all.

and its not only the welsh who bang on about referees after tight losses.

great game of rugby, the ospreys front 5 are one of the best units in the world and shane finished twice brilliantly to remind everyone whats going to be missing next season.

im not sure what was going on in the scrum, but one side got 2 yellows, and the other side seemed to be going forward when it stayed up, so i dunno if banging on about being robbed by the decisions in that area is actually fair. its way too strong a criticism....

Leinster European champions, but no luck in the league. I thought they had it in the bag at halftime if I'm honest.

Along with the Jeff final, what a great wknd of club rugby. who said the nh sides wouldn't mix it with the SH clubs?

What Jones does in the scrum is no different to what McCaw does at the breakdown. Is it cheating? That's down to interpretation. At the end of the day, it's part of the game, everyplayer does it and the best players get away with it.

Well done both sides! That's how all finals should be, intense game, with a photo finish Here's to more intense match ups next season!

CurlyOsp wrote:What Jones does in the scrum is no different to what McCaw does at the breakdown. Is it cheating? That's down to interpretation. At the end of the day, it's part of the game, everyplayer does it and the best players get away with it.

Well done both sides! That's how all finals should be, intense game, with a photo finish Here's to more intense match ups next season!

Going in from the side and handling on the floor are, I agree, also illegal but neither is likely to result in a player being seriously injured, possibly breaking his neck. Deliberately collapsing the scrum is dangerous play and indefensible! Adam Jones is one of the best props in the World, he does not need to adopt these tactics.

The sooner the laws are amended and Referees adopt a far more strict application the better. The game will be a far more attractive spectacle without endless scrum resets and certainly a lot safer!

Comfort wrote:so the 'heineken cup' leinster aren't unbeatable after all.

and its not only the welsh who bang on about referees after tight losses.

Difference is when the Welsh do it they're whining. When the Irish do it, it's justified

Nice to see no-one cares that the rucks are a mess with players lying all over the place, going off their feet, offside and handling in the ruck. The reffing of that has a much better effect than the scrum.

CurlyOsp wrote:What Jones does in the scrum is no different to what McCaw does at the breakdown. Is it cheating? That's down to interpretation. At the end of the day, it's part of the game, everyplayer does it and the best players get away with it.

Well done both sides! That's how all finals should be, intense game, with a photo finish Here's to more intense match ups next season!

Yea that's true and I don't blame him but the fact that two Leinster players were carded because of it was what grates on me. It made it too difficult in the end.

first of congratulations to the ospreys. I'm not a Leinster fan so have no axe to grind. I thought Leinster missed Brad thorn in the scrums. I've also very rarely even seen a match were 2 players from the same side were yellowed for scrum offences. I'm also seriously surprised that the Ospreys didn't end up with a man in the bin for a number of breakdown offences. The yellow cards essentially decided the game playing with 14 men for 20 mins in that heat against a top level side proved too much. I also thing that the try the Ospreys got in the second half from the line out may of featured a couple of forward passes. All in all it was a very enjoyable match to watch. I still think however that Leinster are by far the best side in the Rabo as was illustrated by the fact that they nearly snatched it at the end

HammerofThunor wrote:

Comfort wrote:so the 'heineken cup' leinster aren't unbeatable after all.

and its not only the welsh who bang on about referees after tight losses.

Difference is when the Welsh do it they're whining. When the Irish do it, it's justified

Nice to see no-one cares that the rucks are a mess with players lying all over the place, going off their feet, offside and handling in the ruck. The reffing of that has a much better effect than the scrum.

You mean Leinster players lying all over the place - Lucky not to get a third yellow in front of the posts When bishop broke through, even a Leinster arm popped up to stop the pass by the scrum half so another yellow there. That makes 4 justifiable yellows - oh and while I'm at it....

...sorry, being silly

tecphobe wrote:first of congratulations to the ospreys. I'm not a Leinster fan so have no axe to grind. I thought Leinster missed Brad thorn in the scrums. I've also very rarely even seen a match were 2 players from the same side were yellowed for scrum offences. I'm also seriously surprised that the Ospreys didn't end up with a man in the bin for a number of breakdown offences. The yellow cards essentially decided the game playing with 14 men for 20 mins in that heat against a top level side proved too much. I also thing that the try the Ospreys got in the second half from the line out may of featured a couple of forward passes. All in all it was a very enjoyable match to watch. I still think however that Leinster are by far the best side in the Rabo as was illustrated by the fact that they nearly snatched it at the end

That old cliche. I'm not Irish-biased but, but, but..... yawn. I think Ospreys are the best team in the Rabo, by far. Munster and Leinster beaten 3 times in the year with their name on the trophy for a record 4th time. Not sure how one could say they aren't!

Morgannwg wrote:

tecphobe wrote:first of congratulations to the ospreys. I'm not a Leinster fan so have no axe to grind. I thought Leinster missed Brad thorn in the scrums. I've also very rarely even seen a match were 2 players from the same side were yellowed for scrum offences. I'm also seriously surprised that the Ospreys didn't end up with a man in the bin for a number of breakdown offences. The yellow cards essentially decided the game playing with 14 men for 20 mins in that heat against a top level side proved too much. I also thing that the try the Ospreys got in the second half from the line out may of featured a couple of forward passes. All in all it was a very enjoyable match to watch. I still think however that Leinster are by far the best side in the Rabo as was illustrated by the fact that they nearly snatched it at the end

That old cliche. I'm not Irish-biased but, but, but..... yawn. I think Ospreys are the best team in the Rabo, by far. Munster and Leinster beaten 3 times in the year with their name on the trophy for a record 4th time. Not sure how one could say they aren't!

The fact that there is so little between the best teams in the Rabo (despite what any emotion filled fan says) shows how strong the league is becoming.

Oh I agree and I think the Ospreys are very good. Im glad they got rid of their dead wood and foreigners because they have some very good players.

A ten point cushion between Leinster and Ospreys at the top of the table would suggest that Leinster are the better team over the course of a season. Once again though in a one off game Ospreys got the better of them and were well deserved winners. But the hyperbole here is laughable over this victory.

Morgannwg wrote:

tecphobe wrote:first of congratulations to the ospreys. I'm not a Leinster fan so have no axe to grind. I thought Leinster missed Brad thorn in the scrums. I've also very rarely even seen a match were 2 players from the same side were yellowed for scrum offences. I'm also seriously surprised that the Ospreys didn't end up with a man in the bin for a number of breakdown offences. The yellow cards essentially decided the game playing with 14 men for 20 mins in that heat against a top level side proved too much. I also thing that the try the Ospreys got in the second half from the line out may of featured a couple of forward passes. All in all it was a very enjoyable match to watch. I still think however that Leinster are by far the best side in the Rabo as was illustrated by the fact that they nearly snatched it at the end

That old cliche. I'm not Irish-biased but, but, but..... yawn. I think Ospreys are the best team in the Rabo, by far. Munster and Leinster beaten 3 times in the year with their name on the trophy for a record 4th time. Not sure how one could say they aren't!

I live in Cardiff support Munster i'm not a Leinster fan. So what part of what i said isnt true? Leinster missed Brad Thorn in the scrums undoubtedly true. Its rare for a side to get 2 guys yellowed for scrum offences true or false ? That the yellows cards decided the match? hard to dispute as the opsrey's scored 17 points when Leinster were down to 14. The fact that i believe Leinster are the best side in the Rabo is the only part of that which is subjective i.e my opinion. The rest of it is based on fact

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:A ten point cushion between Leinster and Ospreys at the top of the table would suggest that Leinster are the better team over the course of a season. Once again though in a one off game Ospreys got the better of them and were well deserved winners. But the hyperbole here is laughable over this victory.

That's tree (3) one-offs actually.

Hyperbole? All in the name I guess. It's been coming from Leinster fans trying to defend their bail-outs from Poite all afternoon.

Feckless Rogue wrote:leinsterbaby, I don't know if Jones cheated at the scrums. I actually think very few people know what they're on about in there. I think it's funny, and convenient, that all the Welsh people are so sure that Jones did nothing wrong and all the Irish are so sure that he was cheating. I ye really sure?

But we always get into this scrummaging mess with Poite. I think it was a very even game. The fact is Leinster lost by a point. So it's obvious the Leinster side are gonna be upset about Poite and the scrummaging. I was also astonished that the 2nd yellow came without warning. That's unusual.

All we can do is accept the result though guys. Leinster are Europe's number 1 team still. Osprey's got the result. There was a bit of controversy. But there's no room on the trophy to engrave the pro's and con's of Poite's performance in detail. And we have at least two chances for revenge next year. That's the beauty of sport. It never ends.

For the second yellow in particular there was nothing to be gained by Leinster collapsing the scrum. Indeed as far a Leinster are concerned time spent on multiple scrum resets is time they could be spending in open play which is what they do best both in attack and in defense. You can also clearly see Jones drop the bind on that one.

It was a clear tactic from the O's to spend as much time at the scrum as possible to both frustrate Leinster and fish for pens and cards. It worked. They would have see the '11 heineken cup final where Northampton did the same v Leinster. Who was ref that day? Leinster were mugged and for 60 minutes they played the match with 14 men which is too hard even for a team as good as Leinster.