Rabbo Pro 12 Final thread(Teams included)

First topic message reminder :

Right, now, we know the teams, we know the venue, how do we think this one will pan out ? Although there is less at stake, I think that this game will be a lot better than HC final, and with Leinster having home advantage, it is hard to look past a Leinster win, but the Ospreys have been to the RDS this season and won so they will not fear going to Dublin, also Tandy has come in and breathed fresh air into the squad, but I still think Leinster will win but it will be very close, probably just a score in it. So I am going for Leinster by 3pts.

LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney 14: Fergus McFadden 13: Brian O'Driscoll 12: Gordon D'Arcy 11: Isa Nacewa 10: Jonathan Sexton 9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe 2: Sean Cronin 3: Mike Ross 4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN 5: Devin Toner 6: Kevin McLaughlin 7: Shane Jennings 8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss 17: Cian Healy/Jack McGrath 18: Nathan White 19: Brad Thorn 20: Dominic Ryan 21: John Cooney 22: Ian Madigan 23: David Kearney

OSPREYS:

15 Richard Fussell
14 Hanno Dirksen
13 Andrew Bishop
12 Ashley Beck
11 Shane Williams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Rhys Webb
1 Paul James
2 Richard Hibbard
3 Adam Jones
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt)
5 Ian Evans
6 Ryan Jones
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Joe Bearman
Replacements:
16 Scott Baldwin
17 Ryan Bevington
18 Aaron Jarvis
19 James King
20 Tom Smith
21 Kahn Fotuali'i
22 Matthew Morgan
23 Tom Isaacs[/quote]

The 2nd yellow seemed a bit daft. That was probably Poite trying to even it up after all the bail-outs he gave Leinster in the opening half. Don't forget he refused to answer Kahn after he had asked "is time up?!" about 10 times. It almost worked for you, almost.

like said didnt matter to me who won

Poite managed to be just as terrible for both sides. The breakdown was largely a free for all and to the Ospreys credit, they matched Leinster there. Not many teams do that.

Leinster didn't deserve the yellow cards they had, but did deserve cards for the high tackles on Beck and Williams in the act of scoring. It seems that I'm starting to favour this "it all evens out" theory (when I'm a neutral at least).

Poite was simply aweful all game with the scrums and breakdowns. He seemed to be guessing all the time. Clancy as one of his AR's was nowhere to be seen and gave him no advice. Neither side could understand his rulings at all. I still have no idea why White recieved the second yellow card.

I still think that (Jennings?) was lucky not to see a card for stamping early on in the match and i would not be suprised to hear that he will be cited.

I am very disappointed by the attitude's of SOME of the Irish posters on here, the Ospreys won because they were the better side on the day, fatigue cannot be an issue as plenty people on here were harping on about how Leinster did not go out a celebrate after the HC and they were going to be focused on the double, I have said on here before, the Ospreys are starting to get something special together and they will be a force to be reckoned with next season as they have one of the best packs in Europe, and the young backs will have had this season to know what to expect. Not many sides go to Dublin and come away with a win, but the Ospreys have done it twice this season.

don't blame it on the sunshine,
Don't blame it on the moonshine,
Don't blame it on recovery time,
Blame it on the bogey...

Lord, i am sure as hell not begrudging Osprey's win. There was nothing between the sides yesterday and it was a fantastic advert for rugby.
I just feel that Poite soured it somewhat with a totally inept display at the scrums and breakdowns, not really favouring any side but generally poor.

The last few months have seen the Osprey's grow and grow and they will be a very difficult side next season, in fact i would say that they have been one of the best NH sides these last few months. As much as i hated them beating Munster, i really enjoyed the game and there is something good about being simply played off the park rather than have dodgy decisions ruin a match and the Ospreys did just that against Munster, played them off the park.

There can be alot said about the belief in the Osprey's side after yesterday. I had them written off with 18 minutes to play but they just kept going and put Leinster under pressure which led to them winning the game. That shows great character and i cant wait to see how they progress next season because its looking good so far.

The biggest issue for me is why Shane was not awarded MOTM.

Who got it?

Nacewa

Ok, thats fair enough, he had a great game and it was probably picked before the last try

Give my regards to Gibson Billy, tell him I'm thinking about him with my sore but happy head

I think I now know what the cockney rhyme and slang is for Poite'

Pretty sure that Gibbo has a sore head now, i will text him your regards shrink

Cheers Billy, like the Murphys I'm sure he's not bitter, a little psychotic perhaps but not bitter

Gibbo loves his rugby and that was a match that i am sure he will have appreciated

Well done Ospreys. Some team you have there. Some doggey reffing decisions but thats par for the course.

Why is Williams retiring again? Age is it? Hmmmm. Not so sure. He has another 2 years left in him at least.

I said it last week that the double is impossible because of fatigue, unless your opponents are the the ones you face in the other final. The heat was mad. Too much energy sapping stuff.

Hopefully for the Os they can push on and make an impression in Europe. No reason why they are not a semi final / final team.

BoyneRFC wrote:
Hopefully for the Os they can push on and make an impression in Europe. No reason why they are not a semi final / final team.

I concur. Regardless of whether or not Leinster were firing on all cylindars or not in any of the 3 games, Leinster have shown that they are exceptionally difficult to beat, no matter who takes the field, yet Ospreys have managed it 3 times. Not one team in the HEC managed it. That is very impressive. I can't recall Munster ever being demolished in that manner either.

Ospreys need to set their sights beyond the Rabo and should be expecting much more in Europe because they are certainly good enough to be serious HEC contenders.

I'd like to start by saying that I managed to go all yesterday without being tempted to look at the internet and find the score and have watched the game 'live' this morning (on a recording of course).

I wouldn't say I'm neutral as I wanted Ospreys to win but as I'm a Scarlet I am perhaps more neutral than some of the posters on here.

The yellow cards were both justified. The Leinster front row was pretty poor in that first sequence and was driving down. I'm pretty sure the second one was for repeat offences.


The breakdown was ridiculous with players all over the place. Ospreys could have had much better ball had they realised what was going on and committed players to clear out properly. Poite wasn't brilliant but I've seen much worse performances.

Biggar had a good game from the boot but lets not get ahead of ourselves. He gave the ball away on a number of a occasions. I don't know who it was that said about him playing in tougher games than Scarlets but he's never played in a world cup or won a grand slam so that argument is irrelevent. I think that as long as Priestland doesn't have to kick goals he is the better player.

Kahn wasn't to blame for that last turnover. He was trying to keep it at the base until he coule find out how long was left, like a scrum half should but Poite ignored him. Ospreys should have protected it better.

Finally what a superb game. I have to say I watched both the Prem final and the Rabo and both games were superb adverts for rugby. Leinster should be very proud of the season they had but should also be proud to have been in a final against such a good Ospreys team. If that game had been in Swansea it would have been a bigger score.

mckay1402 wrote: The yellow cards were both justified. The Leinster front row was pretty poor in that first sequence and was driving down. I'm pretty sure the second one was for repeat offences.

The first yellow was a joke VdM did nothing wrong.
I agree that that Leinster were struggling big time on the LH side and should have been pinged more.
However there was one flagarant boring in by Jones that went unpunished (I have seen him get away with that a few times), also Hibbard popped up on another occassion and wasn't pinged.

Basically Poite wasn't coping with the scrums at all.

If that game had been in Swansea it would have been a bigger score.

...or a week later, Leinster would have won. It's all speculative. Just enjoy the win.

Poite was a complete joke, I agree.

Poite was very poor at the scrums and the breakdowns but he was also not getting any help from his AR's on the decisions. I though that his reffing in general was'nt to bad away from the scrums and breakdowns.

I though that his reffing in general was'nt to bad away from the scrums and breakdowns.

Well, scrums and breakdowns will be about 80% of the officiating. That's like saying that I love cheese cake, except for the cheese and the cake parts....

I would'nt say that 80% but it is a large chunk granted. He was also not getting any assistence from his AR's which was an even bigger issue for me as it led to him guessing far too much.

The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

If the two packs came together and bound without shoving until the ball was fed, I swear there's be no problems in the scrums. With this 'hit' nonsense, the props have a split-second, with the full weight of their packs behind them, to try and bind onto a skin-tight jersey. It's no surprise they fail a lot of the time.

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I think thats because what he did bad had a huge impact on the game. I still believe both yellows were incorrect, although the 1st one was perhaps understandable because Leinster were so close to their own line. I believe he should have checked the LH side before giving the yellow and he would have seen that Jones was dropping his shoulder to slip the bind.

If there were any yellows to be shown they should have been to BOD for infringing under the sticks and AWJones for blatently and cynically handling whilst lying on his back.

I'm not sure I buy the 'fatigue' thing. I haven't checked, (and therfore could be making it up entirely) but I bet if you looked at the games played per player this season, the Ospreys figures would be significantly higher than Leinster's.
As for the ref, Well, there are SEVERAL glaring errors with his performance.

1. Rightly or wrongly he was penalising Leinster at scrum time 5m out. Once you've gone from warning, to penalty, to penalty, to yellow card, to penalty you HAVE to award a penalty try. A 5m scrum with an extra man in the scrum IS a clear cut try scoring opportunity.

2. Leinster scrambling like mad to get back after Bishop's break, and they kill the ball 2m out, under the posts. Again, has to be a yellow card.

3. Nacewa clearly knocks the ball on in the act of scoring - should be a scrum to the Ospreys. However, Ospreys take a quick throw in - into the in-goal area - which you cannot do, they get hauled down, and he gives the scrum to Leinster.
I think I counted 3 times that the Ospreys took a quick one into their own in-goal area, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

I don't know if a ref is duty bound to tell a scrum half when time is up in open play, but they ususally say "time is yours" don't they?

Away from the scrums (and aside form all that) he was ok.

In other news, I really like the way Leinster move the ball out wide with wrap-arounds and offloads, and Rob Kearney is the best fullback in the world.

As for Biggar, can't see why he shouldn't displace Priestland now. He's finished the season in exceptional form, and with his goal-kicking is the better player in my opinion. Scarlets fans won't like it, and I'm sure Priestland would have a lot to say about it, but if I was picking the team tomorrow, I'd pick Biggar.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the two packs came together and bound without shoving until the ball was fed, I swear there's be no problems in the scrums. With this 'hit' nonsense, the props have a split-second, with the full weight of their packs behind them, to try and bind onto a skin-tight jersey. It's no surprise they fail a lot of the time.

They can't stand up even when they are hitting (ie. using the resistance of the opposition to hold the bridge up...so I don't see that they'd be in any mood to stand up whilst hovering their upper bodies in mid air without shoving.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I think thats because what he did bad had a huge impact on the game. I still believe both yellows were incorrect, although the 1st one was perhaps understandable because Leinster were so close to their own line. I believe he should have checked the LH side before giving the yellow and he would have seen that Jones was dropping his shoulder to slip the bind.

If there were any yellows to be shown they should have been to BOD for infringing under the sticks and AWJones for blatently and cynically handling whilst lying on his back.

I know the one you mean Rodders, but if you look at the replay, AWJ was the tackler, got up, stole the ball on his feet, and was then tackled to the floor, he just got turned, but I thought he could place the ball immediately in any direction? As memory serves it was somewhere in the Leinster half, and didn't warrant yellow I don't think. Considering for Leinster's 1st penalty of the game he shouted 'Ball out!" before penalising the Ospreys player for picking it up. I forgot about that.

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I feel indeeed a bit sad for some of you guys if 5 minutes of messy refereing ends up ruining a perfectly very good game of rugby but then I understand the frustration if you are not a neutral. it's not like it's the first time we see a poor refereing performance and unless you can clone Nigel Owens or clarify the scrum/ruck rules you ought to get used to it

I'd have to watch it again. I recall that the ball was on the deck and AWJ grabbed it and rolled over to his side with it despite lying on the deck. I thought it should have been yellow at the time.

I agree with the BOD one under the sticks. Has to be yellow. I think the final turnover was illegal too though.

Higher_Ground wrote: I'm not sure I buy the 'fatigue' thing. I haven't checked, (and therfore could be making it up entirely) but I bet if you looked at the games played per player this season, the Ospreys figures would be significantly higher than Leinster's.

It is not matches played. The crucial difference was the fact Leinster palyed a HC final the week before - Ospreys had a rest.

Higher_Ground wrote:1. Rightly or wrongly he was penalising Leinster at scrum time 5m out. Once you've gone from warning, to penalty, to penalty, to yellow card, to penalty you HAVE to award a penalty try. A 5m scrum with an extra man in the scrum IS a clear cut try scoring opportunity.

According to the RTE guys you cannot award a penalty try if the scrum issue is one at the point of contact.
It can only be awarded if the attacking side is going forward. I think they are correct.

Higher_Ground wrote:3. Nacewa clearly knocks the ball on in the act of scoring - should be a scrum to the Ospreys.

He didn't knock on

Higher_Ground wrote:However, Ospreys take a quick throw in - into the in-goal area - which you cannot do, they get hauled down, and he gives the scrum to Leinster.
I think I counted 3 times that the Ospreys took a quick one into their own in-goal area, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

I think you are wrong

Jesus, even when they win, the Welsh wont stop whinging.

Higher_Ground wrote:I'm not sure I buy the 'fatigue' thing. I haven't checked, (and therfore could be making it up entirely) but I bet if you looked at the games played per player this season, the Ospreys figures would be significantly higher than Leinster's.

??? This always gets an airing. "Hmmm, this 'fatigue' thing is a little over done."

Here's an exercise for you when you have a free year to prepare the ground. Run five marathons spread over six months and see how you feel, write it down. Then sometime in the following six months choose a week and run three of them. Get back to me.

Leinster had much the tougher run in to the final both in trying to manage player fitness and in the grinding mental and physical fatigue of having played a bigger series of games than Ospreys. It's logic at work. You did see the growing list of seize ups both before the game and during it? AP followers say their players play more games than Pro12 players...but that is their decision over the course of a year. At the business end, you have your championship players and they have to be involved for an intense and truncated period.

Meanwhile Leinster lost and Ospreys won. Pro12 champions are Ospreys. Some Osprey's fans seem to need more than the win - they need mental capitulation from the vanquished knights. I'm afraid that's not on our agenda.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I think thats because what he did bad had a huge impact on the game. I still believe both yellows were incorrect, although the 1st one was perhaps understandable because Leinster were so close to their own line. I believe he should have checked the LH side before giving the yellow and he would have seen that Jones was dropping his shoulder to slip the bind.

If there were any yellows to be shown they should have been to BOD for infringing under the sticks and AWJones for blatently and cynically handling whilst lying on his back.

I know what you are say rodders but i do think that he let the game flow alot more than some other referee's would. As i said earlier, the glaring issue for me was the lack of contact and information that his AR's supplied him with.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I think thats because what he did bad had a huge impact on the game. I still believe both yellows were incorrect, although the 1st one was perhaps understandable because Leinster were so close to their own line. I believe he should have checked the LH side before giving the yellow and he would have seen that Jones was dropping his shoulder to slip the bind.

If there were any yellows to be shown they should have been to BOD for infringing under the sticks and AWJones for blatently and cynically handling whilst lying on his back.

I know what you are say rodders but i do think that he let the game flow alot more than some other referee's would. As i said earlier, the glaring issue for me was the lack of contact and information that his AR's supplied him with.

He let the game flow and then ...didn't.

He stalled the game in the area he seems to have had a sweat-and-heatstroke melt-down in and then had the audacity to ask for heavy help from his runaway ARs? He should have had the courage of his conviction - if he wanted to be pedantic in the scrum he should have had the mental tools to handle it. On that day he didn't...but still insisted on stalling and fussing.

Anyways I'm done on this one, this will rumble on forever I think.....

The bottom line is that Leinster are shoite and the Ospreys are unofficial kings of Europe .......

whocares wrote:

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I feel indeeed a bit sad for some of you guys if 5 minutes of messy refereing ends up ruining a perfectly very good game of rugby but then I understand the frustration if you are not a neutral. it's not like it's the first time we see a poor refereing performance and unless you can clone Nigel Owens or clarify the scrum/ruck rules you ought to get used to it

Nigel Owens?! The same Nigel Owens who awarded the Ospreys a penalty try against the Dragons even though the Ospreys had shoved early and the ball was still in their scrum half's hands?

Im praying to get ospreys in the our group of the HC

Oh well, everyone will have their own opinion i guess. I just enjoyed the game and thought that it was a great win for the Osprey's

Well if you are going to be all sensible Billy

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Im praying to get ospreys in the our group of the HC

I'd say be careful what you wish for. You may get the chance to sort out your bogey side early, or just cement the monkey to your back.



It would be cracking for the neutral though!

Well played Ospreys

Hold the press, the RaboDirect Pro12 has just come of age!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

whocares wrote:

eirebilly wrote:The thing is, what he did bad seems to be all that is focused on which is a little sad.

I feel indeeed a bit sad for some of you guys if 5 minutes of messy refereing ends up ruining a perfectly very good game of rugby but then I understand the frustration if you are not a neutral. it's not like it's the first time we see a poor refereing performance and unless you can clone Nigel Owens or clarify the scrum/ruck rules you ought to get used to it

Nigel Owens?! The same Nigel Owens who awarded the Ospreys a penalty try against the Dragons even though the Ospreys had shoved early and the ball was still in their scrum half's hands?

well I mentioned his name because I thought he was rated quite well amongst the 606v2 population ... was trying to bring some consensus but looks like I failed miserably

But is it right that Leinster topped the table by 10 points only to lose it to the Ospreys?

More Disney than Pro!

I think Ownes is better but he can have a brain fart re scrums as well.

Totally lost the plot in a recent Munster v Leinster game - the scrum was a farce. Horan refused to take contact and Ownes didn't know what to do.

It was a valiant effort!

BoyneRFC wrote:Jesus, even when they win, the Welsh wont stop whinging.

mate, as bad as some of the welsh fans have been on here, maybe look at your own countrymens posts....

the ospreys front 5 is one of the best scrummaging units in the world, and id fancy them to take on a lot of the top 10 test teams scrums. they took leinster apart in the front row, by hook or by crook, the leinster front row was demolished. I actually think they were lucky not to give away a penalty try at the end of the first 40, they werent going backwards cause they kept going down. Im not a scrum expert and dont claim to be, but how i saw it was the ospreys were dominant in that area, 2 yellow cards, numerous penaltys and the props having to be subbed off regulalry it seemed, tells the story on its own.

It was a very tight game, with either side deserving the win, it just happened to be a 1-point win to the ospreys. Leinster fans arent used to losing, they'll have a moan, but lets be very clear, Leinster were not robbed.

If you want to look anywhere for terrible refereeing, look no further than the breakdown. That was a shambles all game for both sides, with inconsistencies and the ref actually blowing his whistle after saying "ball out" for gaaawdsake!

It was a great game, tries from both sides, Leinster lost by 1 point. It seems the O's may have a bit of a hoodoo over Leinster at the moment!

Did it remind anyone else a bit of Wales vs Ireland without the big welsh wings?

geoff998rugby wrote:I think Ownes is better but he can have a brain fart re scrums as well.

Totally lost the plot in a recent Munster v Leinster game - the scrum was a farce. Horan refused to take contact and Ownes didn't know what to do.

so there is maybe something wrong with the rules if the decision making does not look so straightforward and a ref ends up in a difficult position (was watching this on a RTE stream and one of the commentator seemed to be implying that Poite was in a sort of dead end or that he couldnt award a penatly try easily ). As for Poite he normally tends to favour the team that goes forward in the scrum (and yes he doesnt mind giving penalty tries away in france at least) but since it wasnt even the case, he kept guessing on what to do next.