Rabbo Pro 12 Final thread(Teams included)

First topic message reminder :

Right, now, we know the teams, we know the venue, how do we think this one will pan out ? Although there is less at stake, I think that this game will be a lot better than HC final, and with Leinster having home advantage, it is hard to look past a Leinster win, but the Ospreys have been to the RDS this season and won so they will not fear going to Dublin, also Tandy has come in and breathed fresh air into the squad, but I still think Leinster will win but it will be very close, probably just a score in it. So I am going for Leinster by 3pts.

LEINSTER:

15: Rob Kearney 14: Fergus McFadden 13: Brian O'Driscoll 12: Gordon D'Arcy 11: Isa Nacewa 10: Jonathan Sexton 9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe 2: Sean Cronin 3: Mike Ross 4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN 5: Devin Toner 6: Kevin McLaughlin 7: Shane Jennings 8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Richardt Strauss 17: Cian Healy/Jack McGrath 18: Nathan White 19: Brad Thorn 20: Dominic Ryan 21: John Cooney 22: Ian Madigan 23: David Kearney

OSPREYS:

15 Richard Fussell
14 Hanno Dirksen
13 Andrew Bishop
12 Ashley Beck
11 Shane Williams
10 Dan Biggar
9 Rhys Webb
1 Paul James
2 Richard Hibbard
3 Adam Jones
4 Alun Wyn Jones (Capt)
5 Ian Evans
6 Ryan Jones
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Joe Bearman
Replacements:
16 Scott Baldwin
17 Ryan Bevington
18 Aaron Jarvis
19 James King
20 Tom Smith
21 Kahn Fotuali'i
22 Matthew Morgan
23 Tom Isaacs[/quote]

Ah one more for the Poite faux pas list! There was an ocaision close to Leinsters line were Leinster had clearly turned the Ospreys player over, Poite had signalled that Leinster had won the ball, then changed his mind and awarded a penalty to Ospreys!

I don't believe Leinster were robbed, Ospreys looked very dangerous all game and took their scores well, it was a 50/50 game. Poite was terrible though and his decisions and lack of them had a big impact on the game.

Rodders the S4C replays showed that AWJ was on his feet when he turned the ball over in a maul. He was then pushed to the floor in the ensuiing melee and tried to hand it back to the SH. It was fast but the replay deinately showed him on his feet - The ref agreed and said he should have let it go when he hit the deck. Penalty but no yellow card IMO.

whocares wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I think Ownes is better but he can have a brain fart re scrums as well.

Totally lost the plot in a recent Munster v Leinster game - the scrum was a farce. Horan refused to take contact and Ownes didn't know what to do.

so there is maybe something wrong with the rules if the decision making does not look so straightforward and a ref ends up in a difficult position (was watching this on a RTE stream and one of the commentator seemed to be implying that Poite was in a sort of dead end or that he couldnt award a penatly try easily ).

Agree with that.
I am not sure Horan actually did anything wrong.

The point of engagment does not require you to push.
An engagement problem does not allow you to award a penalty try.

These problems put referees in impossibly situations and need addressing.
I still think Poite was poor though.

sorry rodders, that whole post wasnt just directed at you!

Poite made some terrible calls, but all the calls that perplexed me were at the breakdown.

There was too many gaffes at the breakdown though, agreed he ruined (if that word can be used after such a great game) what could have been a game that would have gone down in history.

Not a bad game for such a meaningless competition

Err... One thing no one on here seems to have mentioned is that one of Bigger's kicks (the penultimate one I think) was given, when it looked from the TV that it was quite clearly wide by a metre or so. Always thought it's a bit weird that Leinster - now one of the biggest teams in Europe - still have a set of toothpick school ground-height posts, which make it very hard to call kicks from. I think they may want to invest in a full set for next season - particularly given how good the Welsh kickers are at striking the uprights!

Comfort wrote:sorry rodders, that whole post wasnt just directed at you!

No bother Comfort!

It's a good point about the posts at the RDS. If they were taller, Dan Biggar's late winning conversion there a few months ago probably would have hit the post and bounced wide, rather than hitting the top of the post and going over.

BOD under his own sticks was a stone cold yellow, but AWJ was a bit tighter, it was a 50/50 call as he could've been adjudjed to have won the ball on his feet before going to ground and was then wrestling the ball to present it, he wasn't actually competing for the ball on the ground, he'd already won it.

The 2 yellows were probably deserved, intentionally creating a situation where the opposition front row can't compete the scrum is what Leinster were trying to do to avoid ball loss, and on about 5 occasions the inevitable pushover/penalty try. I know you can't allow the pen try for an engagement infringement but the third scrum was sacked by Leinster as they were travelling backwards and was more than justified in a pen try awarded for that one.

Poite even said to Cullen at one point, I can't award the pen try but I can give you another yellow.

Poite was sadly as good as it gets these days, for any Leinster fans saying they were robbed... they were! but not by the ref, by the Ospreys determination!!

I've found it fairly interesting to see how much more activity this thread has than the Jeff final thread. Guess it tells us a lot about the demographic of this board, though I hope it also demonstrates how far the Celtic league has come during the last few years - this thread already has almost as much activity as the H-Cup final thread!

And as predicted by Mystic Ruby it was far better fare that the HC final, ref apart of course

Marcus

I'd take it as a sign of the quality of the game, and contraversy.

I watched all 3 games you speak of and this was better for a neutral than the other 2, not to mention the powerhouse of european rugby getting bested in their own back yard by an Ospreys team whos stars are leaving in droves... again!

thebluesmancometh wrote:BOD under his own sticks was a stone cold yellow, but AWJ was a bit tighter, it was a 50/50 call as he could've been adjudjed to have won the ball on his feet before going to ground and was then wrestling the ball to present it, he wasn't actually competing for the ball on the ground, he'd already won it.

The 2 yellows were probably deserved, intentionally creating a situation where the opposition front row can't compete the scrum is what Leinster were trying to do to avoid ball loss, and on about 5 occasions the inevitable pushover/penalty try. I know you can't allow the pen try for an engagement infringement but the third scrum was sacked by Leinster as they were travelling backwards and was more than justified in a pen try awarded for that one.

Poite even said to Cullen at one point, I can't award the pen try but I can give you another yellow.

Poite was sadly as good as it gets these days, for any Leinster fans saying they were robbed... they were! but not by the ref, by the Ospreys determination!!

Neither yellow card was even a penalty and the O's scored most of their points against 14 men so yes we were robbed by bad reffing.The 2nd was particualrly bad as it came out of nowhere and if anything we had got the better of the scrums in the 2nd half,there were at least 2 occasions we got a good shove on and the O's popped up but Poite didn't give us anything.

Hey ho it happens I'm still a bit angry about it but we'll get over it you won't see any Leinster fans calling for Poite to be banned from reffing against Leinster again.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Neither yellow card was even a penalty and the O's scored most of their points against 14 men so yes we were robbed by bad reffing.

This amused me .

"We woz robbed! "

Morgannwg wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Neither yellow card was even a penalty and the O's scored most of their points against 14 men so yes we were robbed by bad reffing.

This amused me .

"We woz robbed! "

I'm glad you got a laugh out of it,you're all class Morg

ASLS

Really?? Neither a penalty???

On your own 5 metre you shouldn't be risking allowing a scrum to drop unless you know you're going to get pushed over. The first 2 penalties were engagement issues, the third was a sack as the Ospreys got the shove on and the yellow and pen try should've been awarded. Then number 4 and 5 were engagements again and a pen try couldn't be awarded. ALL CLEAR PENALTIES, infact even the turnover pen should've been awarded to the Ospreys.

The 2nd half yellow was a bit more complex, but Poite had had enough of the Leinster tactic by then so he was always going to go.

Leinster had one decent hit in the whole game, and managed a yard or 2 on the O's, both front rows popped up due to Leinster getting excited and driving up.

When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

thebluesmancometh wrote:ASLS

Really?? Neither a penalty???

On your own 5 metre you shouldn't be risking allowing a scrum to drop unless you know you're going to get pushed over. The first 2 penalties were engagement issues, the third was a sack as the Ospreys got the shove on and the yellow and pen try should've been awarded. Then number 4 and 5 were engagements again and a pen try couldn't be awarded. ALL CLEAR PENALTIES, infact even the turnover pen should've been awarded to the Ospreys.

The 2nd half yellow was a bit more complex, but Poite had had enough of the Leinster tactic by then so he was always going to go.

Leinster had one decent hit in the whole game, and managed a yard or 2 on the O's, both front rows popped up due to Leinster getting excited and driving up.

When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

Oh great we have a scrum expert over here...thanks for clearing everything up...i now dont feel so angry at the ref anymore

Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

thebluesmancometh wrote:
When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

Yeah, and makes you wonder why a so superior scrum can't knuckle into the other sub-superior scrums (but better than Leinster's!) in Europe? Don't go saving superior scrums for Pro12 would be my advice, Bluesman. Share it around Europe. They like to see that kind of thing.

I'm glad you get such a kick from this sort of thing..

thebluesmancometh wrote:ASLS

Really?? Neither a penalty???

On your own 5 metre you shouldn't be risking allowing a scrum to drop unless you know you're going to get pushed over. The first 2 penalties were engagement issues, the third was a sack as the Ospreys got the shove on and the yellow and pen try should've been awarded. Then number 4 and 5 were engagements again and a pen try couldn't be awarded. ALL CLEAR PENALTIES, infact even the turnover pen should've been awarded to the Ospreys.

The 2nd half yellow was a bit more complex, but Poite had had enough of the Leinster tactic by then so he was always going to go.

Leinster had one decent hit in the whole game, and managed a yard or 2 on the O's, both front rows popped up due to Leinster getting excited and driving up.

When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

You can't stop a scrum dropping when your opposite number is pulling it down.Poite as you say had his mind made up and gave a yellow card with no warning and if you look at the incident it was Jones who went down first taking White with him so should have been a penalty to Leinster and that's the game over right there.

The thing about all the engagement issues is you're assuming that Leinster were causing them when it was both teams acting the maggot.I swear you guys must never watch Leinster playing against anone else or you'd realise our scrum isn't weak and the only time we've struggled like that in the last year was against Northampton in the HC final last year.Who was the ref that day do you think?

Morgannwg wrote:Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

Let me guess..please let me guess. I like guessin' games! Is it coz...................., em,............. coz the Welsh cry all year about mafia refs?

Are you expecting me to share your schadenfreude, Morgannwg? Sorry to break this to you, but you don't speak for your nation.

Morgannwg wrote:Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

Again full of class man your mother must be beaming with pride.

bod under the posts was a yellow that i have to agree with.

2nd sin binning was a joke and the key error among poites many other errors. holding out with 14 men last game of the season in a baking hot day was just too much. especially against a good in form side. A real pity but there you go.

Well done Ospreys. Steve Tandy has done a terrific job and vintage Shane Williams for both trys.Will you ever see the likes over there with the absolute monsters in your back division.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Are you expecting me to share your schadenfreude, Morgannwg? Sorry to break this to you, but you don't speak for your nation.

Luckless, thank you man.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

Again full of class man your mother must be beaming with pride.

Jeez. I comment on the Irish crying about the ref on an internet forum even though they were the ones recieving bail-outs and you come out with that. BTW, isn't this the third time you've used the class line this morning?

Leinsterfan

Firstly why are you angry at the ref, he wasn't great but he made mistakes for both sides, and IMO Ospreys fans would be screaming murder had they lost!

Fly
Not sure what your getting at, O's have a solid platform in the scrum, and have done in europe this season. They have had a shocking backline Beck aside this year, and the defence was awfull until Tandy put some gusto back into them. That is now 2 games where Leinster had the ascendancy over the O's in every area bar the scrum and lost both!

Leinster have been masters of avoiding the engage in recent years, they are no paying for that, and they have to do something before next season or it might become a trend.

Morg
I couldn't disagree with you more!!!

dublin_dave wrote:bod under the posts was a yellow that i have to agree with.

2nd sin binning was a joke and the key error among poites many other errors. holding out with 14 men last game of the season in a baking hot day was just too much. especially against a good in form side. A real pity but there you go.

Well done Ospreys. Steve Tandy has done a terrific job and vintage Shane Williams for both trys.Will you ever see the likes over there with the absolute monsters in your back division.

+1

Yeah it is the third time he has used it, so maybe he has a point?

Morgannwg wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

Again full of class man your mother must be beaming with pride.

Jeez. I comment on the Irish crying about the ref on an internet forum even though they were the ones recieving bail-outs and you come out with that. BTW, isn't this the third time you've used the class line this morning?

How many times have you used the crying about the ref line this morning.Again you're all class

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:ASLS

Really?? Neither a penalty???

On your own 5 metre you shouldn't be risking allowing a scrum to drop unless you know you're going to get pushed over. The first 2 penalties were engagement issues, the third was a sack as the Ospreys got the shove on and the yellow and pen try should've been awarded. Then number 4 and 5 were engagements again and a pen try couldn't be awarded. ALL CLEAR PENALTIES, infact even the turnover pen should've been awarded to the Ospreys.

The 2nd half yellow was a bit more complex, but Poite had had enough of the Leinster tactic by then so he was always going to go.

Leinster had one decent hit in the whole game, and managed a yard or 2 on the O's, both front rows popped up due to Leinster getting excited and driving up.

When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

You can't stop a scrum dropping when your opposite number is pulling it down.Poite as you say had his mind made up and gave a yellow card with no warning and if you look at the incident it was Jones who went down first taking White with him so should have been a penalty to Leinster and that's the game over right there.

The thing about all the engagement issues is you're assuming that Leinster were causing them when it was both teams acting the maggot.I swear you guys must never watch Leinster playing against anone else or you'd realise our scrum isn't weak and the only time we've struggled like that in the last year was against Northampton in the HC final last year.Who was the ref that day do you think?

I saw Leinsters scrum get demolished in Claremont, until Healy went off, I then saw the same players get demolished against England.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Leinsterfan

Firstly why are you angry at the ref, he wasn't great but he made mistakes for both sides, and IMO Ospreys fans would be screaming murder had they lost!

Fly
Not sure what your getting at, O's have a solid platform in the scrum, and have done in europe this season. They have had a shocking backline Beck aside this year, and the defence was awfull until Tandy put some gusto back into them. That is now 2 games where Leinster had the ascendancy over the O's in every area bar the scrum and lost both!

Leinster have been masters of avoiding the engage in recent years, they are no paying for that, and they have to do something before next season or it might become a trend.

Morg
I couldn't disagree with you more!!!

That's just so wrong you obviously haven't watched us much over the last few years.

Tom Court plays for Leinster now, does he?

Nope, against England, Court was playing at tighthead.

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:ASLS

Really?? Neither a penalty???

On your own 5 metre you shouldn't be risking allowing a scrum to drop unless you know you're going to get pushed over. The first 2 penalties were engagement issues, the third was a sack as the Ospreys got the shove on and the yellow and pen try should've been awarded. Then number 4 and 5 were engagements again and a pen try couldn't be awarded. ALL CLEAR PENALTIES, infact even the turnover pen should've been awarded to the Ospreys.

The 2nd half yellow was a bit more complex, but Poite had had enough of the Leinster tactic by then so he was always going to go.

Leinster had one decent hit in the whole game, and managed a yard or 2 on the O's, both front rows popped up due to Leinster getting excited and driving up.

When a scrum is so inferior to the other it's hard for refs to give them any credit when they actually do something that isn't negative!

You can't stop a scrum dropping when your opposite number is pulling it down.Poite as you say had his mind made up and gave a yellow card with no warning and if you look at the incident it was Jones who went down first taking White with him so should have been a penalty to Leinster and that's the game over right there.

The thing about all the engagement issues is you're assuming that Leinster were causing them when it was both teams acting the maggot.I swear you guys must never watch Leinster playing against anone else or you'd realise our scrum isn't weak and the only time we've struggled like that in the last year was against Northampton in the HC final last year.Who was the ref that day do you think?

I saw Leinsters scrum get demolished in Claremont, until Healy went off, I then saw the same players get demolished against England.

Really that seems a bit harsh from my memory,Clermont were on top but hardly demolished us.And then the player who came and changed it,that player was suddenly unable to scrum today how did that happen?

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Fly
Not sure what your getting at, O's have a solid platform in the scrum, and have done in europe this season. They have had a shocking backline Beck aside this year, and the defence was awfull until Tandy put some gusto back into them. That is now 2 games where Leinster had the ascendancy over the O's in every area bar the scrum and lost both!

What I'm getting at is exactly what you've gone on to explain. Takes more than a superior scrum to reach the heights in Europe. It's all about (like every game) playing to your strengths and trying to avoid your weaknesses. Nobody in Leinster has ever said we have the perfect team... and on this occasion Osprey's proved it. You get caught out, you get ramrodded, you also (although some Welsh are having no part in this one even though they used it to excuse some regional play earlier in the season) simply become tired and can't respond as aggressively in a game as you might want to. Many reasons why sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Leinster lost...congratulations Ospreys - four times Pro12 champions.... no small feat. To Osprey fans, enjoy it.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Seeing the Irish cry about the ref at the tail-end of the season is music to my ears to be fair. Anyone Welsh will know why .

Again full of class man your mother must be beaming with pride.

Jeez. I comment on the Irish crying about the ref on an internet forum even though they were the ones recieving bail-outs and you come out with that. BTW, isn't this the third time you've used the class line this morning?

How many times have you used the crying about the ref line this morning.Again you're all class

Just the once. I think I'm gonna go and catch some rays now anyway as it will likely be raining next week. . Morg gets more girls when he's tanned.

ASLS

I'm not sure you biased eyes are the best placed for this type of job. When a scrum goes down it can look very unclear as to whos dropped it, but biomechanically speaking there are certain tools to tell.

All leinster fans will be scratching their heads as to why and how they were geting pinged, all Ospreys fans will be scratching their heads as to why they didn't get a pen try, but ultimately Poite was correct and following the letter of the law. He doesn't have to issue a warning for a yellow or a pen try, and after so many infringement by the same players in the first half and a warning after the 1st yellow the 2nd yellow was awarded for persistant infringements.

From my point of view, and I stress as a neutral the only foothold the Ospreys had in the game was the scrum, and it was nice to see a far superior scrum rewarded for their efforts, rather than fobbed off because it's too difficult to deal with, and thats coming from a Blues fan!!

thing is, if the 2nd yellow wasnt given, then the scrum would have just kept being rest, and pinged and either a penalty try was coming or another yellow anyway?

the leinster props were taking a battering, I felt sorry for whoever had to play at TH, you could see Paul James meant it everytime he crouched.

like i said, im no scrum expert, but i thought it was easy enough to see which side was in the ascendancy in that area all game long.

some of you irish guys have been posting such crass-sore-loser-type comments the welsh regularly get lambasted for on here, blaming everyone but the team.....

thats probably why some of the welsh guys are getting a kick out of it. it seems that wales/ospreys cant actually beat ireland/leinster without it being down to a helping hand from the ref.

give it a rest, ur normally such balanced posters.

Has there been any citings from the match? I was sure that Jennings would get cited for stamping.

Morgan, that is some cringeworthy material right there.. stay in the sun as long as you can.

Leinster don't have the best scrum around in Europe but you don't win 3 HEC trophies with a weak scrum.

That is nonsensical to even suggest that they do.

They've only been dominated a few times in the last 3 or 4 seasons and not always by legitimate means.

They don't have a destructive scrum but they have a decent one and a very good pack.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Morgan, that is some cringeworthy material right there.. stay in the sun as long as you can.

I might burn.

People seem to forget that the past two Ospreys wins against Leinster, they were up against a second/third choice front row.

thebluesmancometh wrote:ASLS

I'm not sure you biased eyes are the best placed for this type of job. When a scrum goes down it can look very unclear as to whos dropped it, but biomechanically speaking there are certain tools to tell.

All leinster fans will be scratching their heads as to why and how they were geting pinged, all Ospreys fans will be scratching their heads as to why they didn't get a pen try, but ultimately Poite was correct and following the letter of the law. He doesn't have to issue a warning for a yellow or a pen try, and after so many infringement by the same players in the first half and a warning after the 1st yellow the 2nd yellow was awarded for persistant infringements.

From my point of view, and I stress as a neutral the only foothold the Ospreys had in the game was the scrum, and it was nice to see a far superior scrum rewarded for their efforts, rather than fobbed off because it's too difficult to deal with, and thats coming from a Blues fan!!

Lol it wasn't unclear for the 2nd yellow Jones very clearly went down first dragging White with him so there's your biomachanics.Clear as the big blue sky over the RDS yesterday,Poite had however already made up his mind and gave an unwarranted card.
Maybe your biased eyes are the ones with the problem.

Comfort wrote:thing is, if the 2nd yellow wasnt given, then the scrum would have just kept being rest, and pinged and either a penalty try was coming or another yellow anyway?

the leinster props were taking a battering, I felt sorry for whoever had to play at TH, you could see Paul James meant it everytime he crouched.

like i said, im no scrum expert, but i thought it was easy enough to see which side was in the ascendancy in that area all game long.

some of you irish guys have been posting such crass-sore-loser-type comments the welsh regularly get lambasted for on here, blaming everyone but the team.....

thats probably why some of the welsh guys are getting a kick out of it. it seems that wales/ospreys cant actually beat ireland/leinster without it being down to a helping hand from the ref.

give it a rest, ur normally such balanced posters.

Thing is Jones pulled that scrum down so it should have been a Leinster penalty,a relieving kick and pretty much game over as 9 points up with 8 minutes to go and 15 men on the pitch we wouldn't have let it slip.

Fly

I totally agree, it was a boiling hot day, and Leinster have played a few more games this season. However they also have rotated their squad far better than Ospreys too, and have much more quality in reserve and depth. I don't buy into phisiological factors really, but I'd go as far to say that after winning the 'big one' how difficult it must be to get yourself up for a lesser trophy the weak after?!

Rest and recovery are part of the game, management at Leinster deal with that better than anyone, and have arguably the best tools to do so. Leinster were the better team, they have the classier players, the bigger squad and superior resources, they won the biggest club trophy on the planet and the week after had to face an O's side who had little chance, playing the underdog role, losing stars to France and facing financial doom and gloom, at Leinsters home ground.

Sometimes when players buy into that kind of facing adversity role they are unstoppable, and the O's defence and willingness to do what it takes was just enough.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:People seem to forget that the past two Ospreys wins against Leinster, they were up against a second/third choice front row.

Bit of stretch Leisnter started 1 player down - Healy and he doesn't always start

eirebilly wrote:Has there been any citings from the match? I was sure that Jennings would get cited for stamping.

I think Poite' has been cited Billy - Hopefully no where near Dublin though - I heard he's having counselling from Allain Rollain

geoff998rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:People seem to forget that the past two Ospreys wins against Leinster, they were up against a second/third choice front row.

Bit of stretch Leisnter started 1 player down - Healy and he doesn't always start

Nope. Ross went off after 13 minutes Geoff. Then McGrath had to play after the first yellow. What age is McGrath? I've seen him twice now. As for the previous game, McGrath (a loosehead) had to play at tighthead. Against one of the best front rows around.