Quins Scrum

I have not been able to watch any of Quins lately and have to admit to some surprise at reading of their powerful scrum. What is going on and why has it improved so much? Earlier in the season Marler was struggling and we saw the Quins scrum getting pushed back against decent opposition. I am amazed therefore that they apparently got the upper hand against Northampton and other good front rows in recent weeks. Has Marler improved or is Johnston becoming a genuine beast?

can you please move this to the club section?

To be honest, I think it was pretty much 50/50 at scrum time for the first 2/3 of the match, which suprised me actually. It wasn't until the last 1/3 of the match that Quins began to gain a tangible advantage.

EQ - not untill Mujati and Soane were subbed off really.
The replacements were Waller and PDJ who both seemed to struggle.

Agree that scrums were 50/50 for most of the match. But against a big Northants pack that is still a massive improvement for quins who traditionally have really struggled at the scrum.

There are definate improvements to Johnstons and Marlers performances at the business end of the season.

Part of the reason is I believe that Tonga'uiha is a pale shadow of the power house last year.

It will be a lot harder against Leicester

Agree. Last time quins played at home Quins managed to hold Ayertza/Chuter/Cole till 60-65mins gaining parity and a few cheeky pens. It was Castro coming on and a hoard of other really good bench options (Mafi ect) that was the ending for Quins.

The Tigers' scrum replacements arguably strengthen the pack. Which is a nice position to be in.

It will be harder vs the Tigers but at the same time in the last AP meeting Quins boxed clever and were rotating the scrum or crabbing in order to try and nullify the Tigers drive as Ayerza isn't the biggest hitter. Not technically legal but hey it worked so depending on the ref they might well try similar in the final.

To be honest I thought the Saints scrum lacked go forward for the majority of the game and the replacements didn't offer much if anything. Quins seem to have a big initial shunt and then try and either turn the scrum to release the 8 for a move with the scrum half or slow to a stop so Care can whip it away to 10. Whoever, is working on that Quins scrum has got them drilled very well indeed as Saints were really struggling.

Equo Troiano wrote:To be honest, I think it was pretty much 50/50 at scrum time for the first 2/3 of the match, which suprised me actually. It wasn't until the last 1/3 of the match that Quins began to gain a tangible advantage.

I'd disagree, from what I saw Quins had a clear edge in the scrum from the first whistle. It may have become more pronounced when the replacements came on, but to my mind it was there all game.

Johnson isn't binding on the arm (or at least isn't being picked up for it). And Kohn's been playing. Those two things have a much bigger impact on Quins' scrum than anything else. Marler hasn't given many penalties away in the scrum all season. Johnson having an off day and the lack of power in the second row are the big problem.

Thanks for the responses. Even parity against Northampton is good, but as some say Soane is not at last season's level. PDJ is often put forward as an England player so to do well against him when he came on as a sub is still pretty impressive. Leicester will ask questions again in the front row battle but 2 weeks preparation should see both sides fit and rested and the battle will be interesting. Maybe Marler has/will improve his scrummaging enough, over time, to make it in the England team? This summer will be interesting.

Cumbrian wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:To be honest, I think it was pretty much 50/50 at scrum time for the first 2/3 of the match, which suprised me actually. It wasn't until the last 1/3 of the match that Quins began to gain a tangible advantage.

I'd disagree, from what I saw Quins had a clear edge in the scrum from the first whistle. It may have become more pronounced when the replacements came on, but to my mind it was there all game.

Cumbrian is right Quins I dont think took a backward step all game in the scrum were as Saints scrum squeaked at times then got destroyed with the changes and essentially cost them the game

Maybe Marler has/will improve his scrummaging enough, over time, to make it in the England team? This summer will be interesting

Corbisiero isn't showing particularly great form for LI and Mullan is in a pretty average team in Worcester. Marler has a great chance to put his name forward with a good showing in the AP Final. It'll be a high pressure situation and if he demonstrates his loose game combined with good temprement and improved scrummaging skills Corbs will be sweating. He might not make the first test but if form and temprement allow Marler could sneak in for the second test and from there it would all be down to him to try and make the shirt his own.

Agree that Johnstons binding - and the referee's interpretation plays a big factor in how the scrums go for Quins.
Johnston is a lump and if he is allowed to scrummage straight and get a bind there isnt a lot that opposing LH's can do about it.
But, when Johnston comes up against a technically able LH he can struggle and will be pinged a number of times.

As huge handoff says - Tigers will ask a lot of questions, and 2 weeks is plenty for all to do a full analysis and be prepped for what I hope will be a really exciting final. Got my tickets already.

Earlier in the season, JJ was being pinged a lot for not binding / binding on the arm. But often this was because the opposing loosey was crumpling under the force of his hit so there was nothing to bind on. Quins have worked on two things with him: teaching him to deploy his power more gradually, and explaining to the refs (offline) what's going on. Apparently they want him to improve his core strength in the off-season at which point they feel he might make a half-decent prop.

At one point on Saturday, Tongahuia missed his bind and started to go down, and JJ just levered him back up and carried on pushing, because the scrum was moving in the right direction.

Marler has never had a problem with binding (he has the longest bind of any LH I've seen, almost on the shorts), but it looks as if Wig has got him to change his body angle and he's gone from being solid to destructive.

As Thunor says, Kohn is the glue that makes it all work, though. He's become a really top notch enforcer over the last season or so - shame that his knee injuries mean he's hit his peak too late to have an international career. Quins are currently less effective without him, but Charlie Matthews showed enough in the early season (before a broken ankle) to suggest that in a couple of years he will be a very capable replacement (and more of an all-rounder).

I covered the Quins-Tigers game for Comeallwithin, and the Quins pack was more effective than I'd expected. Tigers opted for a scrum at the earliest opportunity and Quins promptly won a pen against the head. Allowing for the vagaries of refereeing, Quins never looked like they had less than parity, even after Castro came on (and Castro got so worked up about Marler that he punched him, even if the assistants and TV cameras didn's catch it). I'd agree that Mafi had a huge game and almost certainly turned the tide, but I didn't think Castro had much impact.

Where Tigers will have the edge in the final is that Quins don't have much bench strength at prop. Lambert is a solid LH but much shakier at TH, and our other non-academy THs are injured. COS will be hoping that Marler, JJ and Kohn last the full 80.

Tigers are still favourites, but I don't expect them to win through forward dominance. I think they will punch enough holes in the Quins defence through their backs to come out ahead. Quins can only really win by coming out with the intensity that they had against Toulouse and Sarries away, and either building a lead they can defend, or somehow staying in touch until the dying minutes. I'm pretty sure they will spend a big part of the match hanging on for dear life.

I'm pretty sure they will spend a big part of the match hanging on for dear life.

Judging by the game at the Stoop that will apply to both teams.

I have no worries about our pack handling the Tiggers. It's our backs which are the worry.

Do we go defencive with JTH & Lowe and hope to keep it tight or do we try to open up with JTH and Hopper?

Either way the pack will do it's job.

Oh please let it be sunny and on firm ground!


If Quins play as well as they can, I think they might scrape a win. We can't really afford a poor performance from more than a couple of players though

Chequered, we could actually do better in the rain... a damp pitch that limits Tigers backs and means an arm wrestle in the forwards for me makes it 50/50.

A sunny day with firm ground would massively favour Tigers.

Assuming last match's form was just a blip, we go with Lowe. He is still a very strong attacker and Manu might have a field day if Hopper starts. Also if Hopper's attacking instincts lead to a try, Leicester have less French "moodiness" than Toulouse and will reply with a vicious attack once they get the ball which could expose Hopper defensively, as opposed to the French side who either would have a mini-collapse or the kind of indignant assault that none of our midfield players could withstand. Lowe is better suited

Yeah but I also want this to be an advertisement for what English rugby had to offer. The backs can be spectacular in the sun and it would be nice to be reminded of that now that the forwards look capable of winning us matches in the damp (as long as none of the front 5 need subbing!)

Whilst Quins have improved their scrummaging and have done well this season, they're still not anywhere near 'stronger' than the Tigers pack. The starting 8 might gain parity but that'll probably be as good as it gets, and if Tigers begin to make replacements up front, look out.

I tend to think its the Quins backs that could be the difference, they do have some intelligent runners and with Evans at 10, a very good tactical kicker.

Graham rowntree has been working his magic with marler this season...i belive this has given marler a real improvement at scrum time.

As the season's wore on our backs seem to have run out of steam while the packs stepped up to take over from them.

I can't see us out running Tigers in the final, what we'll need is some hulk-esq defence and plenty of forward power. And Evans to get one over his oppo.