Read the write up of each potential Springbok flyhalf then vote for your favourite.

These are the candidates Heyneke Meyer must use to build a squad from. I know the aim will be to build a team for 2015, but inbetween then and now roughly 50 tests will be played. I know Goosen is injured currently and won't be available for the June test window and will definitely not be available or selected for the Rugby Championship. However I included him in this poll, as his exposure to international rugby is imminent.

We know what Morne Steyn has done for SA, and we know what he has achieved. The reality is with Morne Steyn at the pivotal position of 10, we have won only 20 of the 34 matches he has featured in and lost 14. That is only a 58% success rate. In my opinion to continue with the mindset that he will win you matches is a fallacy and a 58% success rate with a limited flyhalf is not only unacceptable but shocking to think our coaching staff under Pieter de Villiers was so intent on playing a tired old gameplan with Steyn at pivot it is frankly embarressing to think what has happened to Springbok rugby.

Not only the results but a few matches come to mind where Morne Steyn was directly the culprit or cause of losses. In the 2010 Tri Nations test series, we lost two matches that we led on 70 minutes, one against the all Blacks and one against the Wallabies, where tired and inaccurate kicking, poor execution of penalties kicks that didn't go out, afforded the opposition to keep running at us and ultimately caused those losses. How many other matches did the same thing happen?

Here is some information regarding the four candidates as they went during the Super XV this year.

Kicks out of hand per match.
Morne Steyn 11
Johan Goosen 9
Patrick Lambie 8
Peter Grant 6

From this you can gather that Morne Steyn kicks the most, but it isn't just about how often you kick, it is also the purpose of the kick and whther the execution is there.

Clean Breaks and defenders beaten.
Johan Goosen 20 (8 matches)
Patrick Lambie 18 (9 matches)
Peter Grant 9 (7 matches)
Morne Steyn 2 ( 9 matches)

When you look at the effectiveness of Goosen and Lambie on attack, and then looking at the incumbent Steyn, it is clear that he stands to deep in the pocket to have any effect on atack, he is merely a link between the rest of his back line and his pack. When a Fly half takes the ball at pace or standing flat he has more options on attack and unpredicatability also play a huge role here. Lastly, when your pivot has the ability to break the line or beat defenders, you are already over the gain line, defenders must retreat and you can get offloads going into space.

Offloads.

Johan Goosen 12 (8 matches)
Peter Grant 10 (7 matches)
Patrick Lambie 5 (9 matches)
Morne Steyn 1 (9 matches)

This is probably the most telling atatistic of them all, it tells you Steyn almost never draws a defender to put somoene in space, and never offloads either.

Tackles succes rate
Patrick Lambie 91%
Morne Steyn 87%
Peter Grant 83%
Johan Goosen 79%

Surprisingly Lambie comes out on top here.

Kicking accuracy.
Peter Grant 83%
Johan Goosen 81%
Patrick Lambie 78%
Morne Steyn 75%

Lo and behold the Messiah of kicking isn't having a great season with the boot either.

In summary, the consideration for Pieter de Villiers was the kicking of Morne Steyn, but that's just it, when comparing the effectiveness of these four number 10's it is clear that even in the one area where Steyn has been the standout, he no longer leads the way. Is there any reason whatsoever for Heineke Meyer to select him?

Has to be the Scotsman, Lambie, biltong!

Finally, got a bite.

Thanks ASBO.

If it wasn't for Goosen's bad tackling stats I would easily choose him above the rest.

Morne seems to be the worst on that list.

Fern, he hasn't made a lot of tackles only a few per match, but missed at least one tackle per match.

It will improve, I am sure.

well going by this I think Goosen may be a bit raw for international rugby. You probably don't want Barritt and Tuilagi running all day at someone who struggles in the tackle. I'd go with Lambie personally. He seems to have the right balance.

For me Lambie is the kind of young player the boks could build a back line around for the forseeable future. He does the basics well and also has the vision, and pace, to exploit half chances either himself or by threading clever kicks for his backs. This is a dimenion that the Boks have rarely had and combined with their traditional power game could really rasie their performances to a different level.

Give the kid Goosen a go.. Looks great. Lambie or Steyn to bench.

Lambie would be the best option at 10 for South Africa IMO. Goosen to ultimately move to 12 IMO.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Lambie would be the best option at 10 for South Africa IMO. Goosen to ultimately move to 12 IMO.

Goosen wont play 12 not when Frans steyn is a bok . Besides he's never played 12 and i dont see that changing anytime soon . As for Morne Steyn , @Biltong its clear you're always going to be biased against him . Bok fans have notoriously short memories . The bulls are the top team in super rugby as it stands with a game in hand and they've scored the most points . not the sharks not the cheetahs . so its either Steyn is doing something right with that backline or hougaard passes straight to 12 and someone else kicks the points . Yes he had a bad season for the Springboks last year but who didn't ? It seems everyone once to blame last season on Morne Steyn , very unfair indeed imo

Bullsbok, you may want to believe I am biased against him. The facts speak for themselves.

By the way, I don't support any team, only the springboks, so I want to see the best possible candidate.

My reasoning behind Goosen at 12, is that he seems to be an attacking genius. A Lambie-Goosen partnership would be pretty magic.

yer see where you coming from , like a mauger carter axis

I cant see goosen as an international 12. In fact the thought never crossed my mind. Goosens a 10 though and through and could be one of the very best.
With injury looks out for this year but i didnt know steyns test rate was that bad.

Bullsbok with steyn hes effective at sxv we all know that but as an international ten for a top 3 country surely you can see the limitations he has on his team.

Compare him to Cooper and Carter and its obvious theres no width to his game. Then compare the attacking merits of all 3 backlines during the steyn era. Severely lacking in anything original or inventive on attack mainly due to steyns inability to direct or even want to get his backline involved to any degree.

From an ab point of view theyll want nothing more than to keep him there because hes largely ineffective, predictable and i cant recall one good performance from steyn against us. And if there was it will have been a goal kick most likely.

Taylorman wrote:I cant see goosen as an international 12. In fact the thought never crossed my mind. Goosens a 10 though and through and could be one of the very best.
With injury looks out for this year but i didnt know steyns test rate was that bad.

Bullsbok with steyn hes effective at sxv we all know that but as an international ten for a top 3 country surely you can see the limitations he has on his team.

Compare him to Cooper and Carter and its obvious theres no width to his game. Then compare the attacking merits of all 3 backlines during the steyn era. Severely lacking in anything original or inventive on attack mainly due to steyns inability to direct or even want to get his backline involved to any degree.

From an ab point of view theyll want nothing more than to keep him there because hes largely ineffective, predictable and i cant recall one good performance from steyn against us. And if there was it will have been a goal kick most likely.

Funny you should say that i do distincly remember a good perfomance by Steyn against the all blacks . twas the year 2009 when he scored 31 points to send the blackness packing in Durban?

It was between Goosen and Lambie for me.

But went for Goosen due to his better kicking stats and his ability to get the backline moving.

I'd also have Lambie at full back because of his tackle percentage and his ability to fill in at 10 when needed.

Where does Lambie normally play for the Sharks?

Had durban on my mind when i posted. 9 Goal kicks. Steyns legacy is if and when the abs allow 9 shots at goal then SA can win through steyn. How many tests have SA kept him on and lost since that test?

Im fine with keeping him on in that role. The more the better I reckon. And I can see why hes still there. Its only a matter of time before a repeat of that test happens again.. So lets just stay with him....just.....in.....case.

look for carters old records and tell me the name tht replaced em

What record? most test points? or smaller records? Carters value on the field cant just be measured only by the points he scored from kicks but thankfully...steyns can.

How many times have SA chosen to extract another steyn penalty for his little gold collection rather than...run the ball.

We look forward to meeting him again this year. Hes right up there with ogara.

Zander wrote:It was between Goosen and Lambie for me.

But went for Goosen due to his better kicking stats and his ability to get the backline moving.

I'd also have Lambie at full back because of his tackle percentage and his ability to fill in at 10 when needed.

Where does Lambie normally play for the Sharks?

Lambie plays at 10 for the Sharks

I'm a little concerned with all this talk about Lambie playing fullback/no.12/flyhalf...as long as he is allowed to settle into one position at both provincial and international level then it's fine. But playing him a bit here a bit there, "he's a 'utility back"', is the kind of thing that ruined Ruan Pienaar. He's (pienaar) done a lot better when allowed to play in one position for several seasons.

But who ever we may want at flyhalf, I'm with Biltong in thinking that Meyer will go with M. Steyn for the England tests.

Agree as well. And he'll be suited to an england series at home, behind his big pack against a similarly styled team. Right in his comfort zone with all the security of a wsrm blanket.

Then theyll go into the 4N...Eden park and all the usual old misery will kick back in.

Question is whether he should.

Morne is just as deadly as players like Carter IMO... if used correctly.

His boot is a real weapon and come the big games he always delivers.... I for one have often sat in the stands of Newlands with my head in my hands due to that man alone.

Teams know they can't give away any penalties to a Morne side whether it be the Boks or the Bulls. They won't give away intentional penalties if they know everytime they do so they will leak 3 points. The man has real ice in his veins... the bigger the game, the better he will get.

He gets a lot of stick for his time with SA but lets be honest, if a player is being coached a certain way (i.e. by PDV) then they will have limitations.

I for one have found a new respect for Morne this season... his team have been on the backfoot more times this season then probably the whole of his Bulls career put together yet he has done well and the Bulls are surprising everyone by leading the S15 midway through the season.

It reminds me of the time when Cipriani was challenging JW in 08 and everyone said JW days were numbered... in the end true class always comes through and I expect Morne to be in the mix as long as he plays in SA... and probably as long as Meyer is coach.

Morne will play 10 for the whole of the test season IMO. It would have been interesting to see who was dropped out of Morne, Frans, Lambie and Goosen if Goosen was fit....... Perhaps we could have seen them all in a side... Morne at 10, Goosen at 12, Frans at 13 and Lambie at 15???

Although it wouldn't have been my test choice given Frans is a little too bulky for OC but its possible.

Anyhow for me Goosen is the future of SA rugby at 10. Lambie is good but Goosen is a potential JW, a potential Carter. Lambie is a good leader and may form a deadly partnership with Goosen with Lambie at 12... however it will be Goosen calling the shots.

fa0019 wrote:Morne is just as deadly as players like Carter IMO... if used correctly.

His boot is a real weapon and come the big games he always delivers.... I for one have often sat in the stands of Newlands with my head in my hands due to that man alone.

Teams know they can't give away any penalties to a Morne side whether it be the Boks or the Bulls. They won't give away intentional penalties if they know everytime they do so they will leak 3 points. The man has real ice in his veins... the bigger the game, the better he will get.

He gets a lot of stick for his time with SA but lets be honest, if a player is being coached a certain way (i.e. by PDV) then they will have limitations.

I for one have found a new respect for Morne this season... his team have been on the backfoot more times this season then probably the whole of his Bulls career put together yet he has done well and the Bulls are surprising everyone by leading the S15 midway through the season.

It reminds me of the time when Cipriani was challenging JW in 08 and everyone said JW days were numbered... in the end true class always comes through and I expect Morne to be in the mix as long as he plays in SA... and probably as long as Meyer is coach.

Morne will play 10 for the whole of the test season IMO. It would have been interesting to see who was dropped out of Morne, Frans, Lambie and Goosen if Goosen was fit....... Perhaps we could have seen them all in a side... Morne at 10, Goosen at 12, Frans at 13 and Lambie at 15???

Although it wouldn't have been my test choice given Frans is a little too bulky for OC but its possible.

Anyhow for me Goosen is the future of SA rugby at 10. Lambie is good but Goosen is a potential JW, a potential Carter. Lambie is a good leader and may form a deadly partnership with Goosen with Lambie at 12... however it will be Goosen calling the shots.

Couldnt have put it better myself , Morne does not choke. Even the great DC choked now im not saying morne is better than Carter(God no !) but people shouldnt discount or look down on him because he prefers kicking than running .His kicking works and wins games simple as that . Everyone seems intent on blaming the crappy Bok seasons on Steyn even though the entire backline was up to Poopie . The Springboks are not the all blacks or the wallabies . We have never prided ourselves on a flashy backline , instead its always been brute force , a beastly pack and a dead eyed kicker at 10 . As long as the rest of the team does their part , Morne will continue to win us games and @Taylorman unless i'm mistaken O'Gara has long been known as a match winner for Ireland which is why when they need to win a game they call on Ronan so if that was meant as an insult its sadly failed .

We ll obviously O'Gara hasnt been a matchwinner against us and has been particularly poor in fact with 11 attempts I think it is but thats fair enough, views well made and point taken.

I guess this is the more likely view of SA fans in general and with Meyer so closer to Bulls stock/ Bulls performing the way they are/ Goosen injured etc Steyn is probably the better bet- definitely the safer one.

I guess a NZ view is that a Steyn approach is half a rugby match. Reliance on forward power, kicks for territory, pressing mistakes is worn and out of place in the modern game.

Todays rules will not see Steyn ever lining up 10 kicks at goal against the AB's again so basing a game around 'waiting' for mistakes through pressure is at best, sad.

We wouldnt tolerate that approach here. Its boring, the players hate it and the fans hate it. They would boo our 10 off the field if they all played the Steyn way. So I guess its a passion for Kiwi's to see good, open, fast rugby and its similarly annoying to see that suppressed elsewhere.

But its clear its each to his own and all I can say is good luck with it. Steyen will most likely be the 10 this year and the AB's will welcome it with open arms, as they have last couple of years.

Since 2009 Steyn and the Boks have struggled with this approach, particularly against the AB's and I see that continuing.

Taylorman wrote:We ll obviously O'Gara hasnt been a matchwinner against us and has been particularly poor in fact with 11 attempts I think it is but thats fair enough, views well made and point taken.

I guess this is the more likely view of SA fans in general and with Meyer so closer to Bulls stock/ Bulls performing the way they are/ Goosen injured etc Steyn is probably the better bet- definitely the safer one.

I guess a NZ view is that a Steyn approach is half a rugby match. Reliance on forward power, kicks for territory, pressing mistakes is worn and out of place in the modern game.

Todays rules will not see Steyn ever lining up 10 kicks at goal against the AB's again so basing a game around 'waiting' for mistakes through pressure is at best, sad.

We wouldnt tolerate that approach here. Its boring, the players hate it and the fans hate it. They would boo our 10 off the field if they all played the Steyn way. So I guess its a passion for Kiwi's to see good, open, fast rugby and its similarly annoying to see that suppressed elsewhere.

But its clear its each to his own and all I can say is good luck with it. Steyen will most likely be the 10 this year and the AB's will welcome it with open arms, as they have last couple of years.

Since 2009 Steyn and the Boks have struggled with this approach, particularly against the AB's and I see that continuing.

Year in year out we here about this mythical modern game which has no place for kicking , i say to hell with it . I watch rugby for the variety not for the uniformity .No wonder SArugby is the only one which makes a profit year in year out in Sanzar . google it . its all well and good to play your open brand of rugby but we can only see a certain amount of tries before they get boring .

Not just about money Bullsbok, not just about money. More people watch rugby in the NH as well but that doesnt make the rugby any better either.

And I'd certainly rather get bored to death by tries than goal kicks.

Taylorman wrote:Not just about money Bullsbok, not just about money. More people watch rugby in the NH as well but that doesnt make the rugby any better either.

And I'd certainly rather get bored to death by tries than goal kicks.

well liek you said each to their own , i cannot wait to go to loftus after the June tests to watch Morne boot the bulls into the super playoffs

What ever way you look at it South Africa will be always be healthy when it comes to flyhalves,but I dont really understand the suggestions of playing Lambie or Goosen at 12.

My mind is horse for the course.

I think Steyn to play the big dominate forward game and defense arranged combinator that make springboks so strong style and lambie can making more expansive running playing style more like danciel carter.

aucklandlaurie wrote: What ever way you look at it South Africa will be always be healthy when it comes to flyhalves,but I dont really understand the suggestions of playing Lambie or Goosen at 12.

Not sure why it is hard to understand. Just look at the crusaders who have Carter playing 12 right now. Many 10s can play 12, and personally I prefer a clever 12 with a kicking game. South Africa have two extremely talented 10s. Might as well have both on the field.

None of them are 12's though . Would be silly to play a flyhalf out of position at 12 when you already have a brilliant 12 in Frans Styen .Carters playing 12 because he's semi injured and cant kick . but he did play 12 at the beginning of his career so its an easy transition for him

Rory

The reasons why Blackadder has Carter at 12 are purely to nurse him back from injury whilst keeping him involved.
But also carter has played a lot at 12 as well as 1st 5 in the past.
I do understand playing Lambie further back,like they did last year,(like how The Reds and Australia play Quade Cooper), and bringing him back up for the set plays and when in possession.

There are a ton of 10s who play 12 and visa versa. For example, in Australia right now there is Barnes and O'Connor, both have played 10 and 12 recently. Before them there was Giteau. Carter did play 12 early on yet the transition from that and 10 seems natural to him. McAlister plays 10 and 12. Here in Ireland we have Paddy Wallace who can play 10/12, and the young JJ Hanrahan, a 10 who is playing 12, and might be even better there. The positions are often interchangeable IMO.

Rory
I think the point is that yes there have been and are plenty of 10s that can play 12, however their names arent Lambie and Goosen.
As Bullsbok says why would you put one of them at second 5 when you have Frans Steyn,and others?
The Australians are a different scenario altogether,they play all over the place, half the time I dont think they even know what numbers on their backs,but thats what the Aussies do,thing is they do it well.

imo lambie should play 10 and F Steyn 12.

after the next super rugby season have

10. Goosen
12. Steyn
15. Lambie

and there should be 3 world class players in the side for the next rwc and beyond. have a strong quick 13 eg. JPP or Habana, Hougaard at 9, and 2 strike runners on the wing and thats a fantastic blend of kicking, running, power and sheer footballing ability

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rory
I think the point is that yes there have been and are plenty of 10s that can play 12, however their names arent Lambie and Goosen.
As Bullsbok says why would you put one of them at second 5 when you have Frans Steyn,and others?
The Australians are a different scenario altogether,they play all over the place, half the time I dont think they even know what numbers on their backs,but thats what the Aussies do,thing is they do it well.

Ja the aussies just put 7 backs on the park lol they all play multiple positisons anyway, JOC has played everywhere if i'm not mistaken ,Kurtely beale moonlights in all positions except the wings,AAC plays everywhere except flyhalf etc .I think its customary for aussie players to try out the various positions before settling

I think what happens in the Aussie changing room is that Robbie just tips all the jerseys on the floor and the players just grab the one thats closest.

If I remember right Beale started as a ten but got shifted out because of a lack of consistency. So they bought Cooper in instead.

Anyway Beale is getting better at 10 but he is their best 15, JOC is probably better at 12 or wing, AAC for 13 I think for his size and strength

Barnes is just not good enough to start I reckon

nganboy wrote:

Barnes is just not good enough to start I reckon

Really?
I reckon Deans will have him one of the very first on the list such was his post world cup form.

I get where Bullsbok and Taylorman is coming from.

Bullsbok have seen a Bulls team dominate for all intent and purposes as the most successful Super Rugby Franchise of the past five years. What he sees is a Bulls forward pack that dominated lineouts, used immense pressure with their forwards, used the kick tactic to great effect when chasing them having a superior arial skill by their wings. Matfield and Botha in the mauls and line outs.

The accurate kicking boot of Morne Steyn and an attitude of slowly murdering the opposition into submission.

What he forgets is that 5 years down the line, Steyn is set in his ways, predictable and had little or no competition for his place (which is now under threat by a number of younger more unpredictable players). Matfield and Botha is gone, the Bulls are no longer dominating with their forwards, and only Basson is remotely competent under the high ball. The breakdown law was in their favour with the method they played, whereby the tackler had all the rights to the ball and had free reign. The law has changed, it favours the attacking team.

I agree with Taylorman regarding Steyn's conservative and predictable approach, however I think he is going a little overboard with the "style" of rugby the All Blacks have been playing. He forgets the Franks brothers are past masters at being offside at any given ruck, and that McCaw is a master at reading and playing the referee. He also forgets that often in the last two years the All Blcks themselves fell back into a format of kick chase, pick and drive. So the format of the Springboks are not alien to them, and they do not always play the "exciting" game.

As an appreciator of all things rugby and enjoying every facet of play, I can tell you now that one is not better than the other if executed to perfection. Our stats of 5 out of 11 wins will bear evidence of that.

I have said this for some time now, I don't want us to be the All Blacks, I don't want us to be australia either. I want us to keep our methods of structure, our forward domination, our line out superiority and defensive mindset.

What I want to see changed is the mindset of waiting for mistakes to score points. It is a reactive manner in which to win games. What if the opposition do not make mistakes? Well simple really, we don't have a plan B.

Currently SA score points via the boot and either on counter attack or mistakes, mainly from set pieces, which should all remain. We do however have a situation whereby our wings are not utilised, we dampen the natural flair of players because as PDV said to the sporting Committee last year, "we have a fear of failure". By having a fear of failure you limit the expression of why we all played rugby in the first place.

If we have Morne Steyn, who clearly can't break the line, and doesn't show any vision, with Jean de Villiers outside him, it means our ball goes from 9 to 10 to 12, with ZERO variation.

How can you earn the right to go wide, and then have only one move?

WE NEED VARIATION. Currently Lambie in my view is the players who does that best, he can chip, hit the gap, pass, draw defenders, offload and most importantly has vision.

Lastly, I am surprised that when looking at these stats above and realising that in his last 34 tests, Some are still hung up on him, Morne steyn has not been the Messiah, he almost lost as many games as he won.

This is 2012, 50 years ago, our genetics was enough to dominate rugby, now we need some intelligence as well. We cannot keep running the same plays, year in and year out and expect different results.

We are supposed to dominate teams such as Ireland, Wales, scotland etc. We have in the past, the other fact is, we will never dominate New Zealand with this current mindset. We have to play our game to perfection, but also use the players we have, to beat them at their own game.

Carter, SBW/Nonu, Smith, whoever Hansen picks, these guys have no hesitation whatsoever when they face us in defence, purely because they know exactly what is coming.

Based on the kicking stats above, we gain three points per match from steyn over other Fly halves in SA, due to his kicking accuracy. How many do we lose, becuase of predictability?

mattraven wrote:imo lambie should play 10 and F Steyn 12.

after the next super rugby season have

10. Goosen
12. Steyn
15. Lambie

and there should be 3 world class players in the side for the next rwc and beyond. have a strong quick 13 eg. JPP or Habana, Hougaard at 9, and 2 strike runners on the wing and thats a fantastic blend of kicking, running, power and sheer footballing ability

Matt, I think you have it spot on. Right now Lambie at 10, frans steyn at 12 is what would change our game. Unfortunately Meyer won't look past Morne Steyn for now.

Next year, I am praying your combination is the one that is picked.

For now we can only hope the most likely combination of Steyn at 10, Frans at 12, and Lambie at 15, will be changed in attack, giving Lambie the opportunity to vary play when inside the opposition half.

When goosens back the whole point is mute anyway. The guy is far and away the best talent in the position for years. Has the complete game and he should move to another franchise next year to be able to gain experinece in running backlines into winning positions.

My point re steyne is well versed here so i wont go on only to say that SA will suffer with him at as they have consistently since beginning 2010.

biltongbek wrote:I get where Bullsbok and Taylorman is coming from.

Bullsbok have seen a Bulls team dominate for all intent and purposes as the most successful Super Rugby Franchise of the past five years. What he sees is a Bulls forward pack that dominated lineouts, used immense pressure with their forwards, used the kick tactic to great effect when chasing them having a superior arial skill by their wings. Matfield and Botha in the mauls and line outs.

Bulls win 3 of last 5 super rugbies. But worth to mention that two of five were 09 and before. Probability 09 is true about "dominate" when bulls pumpelled the chief in embarassing final. But there is also true that IRB changing the laws interpolation and encourage the more attack combinator. Make the game of kicking and chasing and defending and win the penalty less affective. And since then win by Australian team who doesnt playign this style at all, who were previous finish almost last to the table ranking under old interpolation laws.

Also Springboks struggling to understand the new style and implementing properly and find the right combinator indicating lost trinations and also worst equal finish to world cup campaignment.

SA need to pick Lambie, Goosen is still raw and has a lot to be worked on especially his tackling.

Rugby has moved on and SA under PDV didn't they stuck with the 10 man rugby that Steyn plays and as a result have fallen behind Aus and NZ.

To win games you need to score tries and have a solid defense. Lambie is good with ball in hand and while is defense is not one of his strengths its not a weakness.

I am not anti Steyn i still think he has a place on the bench or in the squad to provide some experience i just don't think his style of play suits international rugby since the aerial ping pong was stopped