Corbisiero or Marler for the loosehead shirt

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Thought i would see what common consensus is on a position of strength for England, with two young and highly promising props in Corbs and Marler could be set for a battle which could continue for a very long time.

I was impressed with Corbs in the Six Nations and I rate him as a good international player with the potential to improve into one of the world's best in a few years. His scrummaging was good, so thats the bread and butter covered, but he also showed up well around the park with a number of good carries and a high tackle count. I have'nt seen him for LI in a while so can anyone give me anything on how he's done since the 6N?

Despite Corbs' good show, Marler is really making a case for me. His club form has been superb and, vitally, his scrummaging seems to have improved from a bit dodgy into a real weapon. Tonga'uiha and Mujati aren't quite the same force as last year but they are still a formidable unit and Quins really showed up well there for me. PDJ is renowned as a strong scrummager but when he came on Marler gave him a real pasting. I have always thought that Marler's work around the park, inparticular his carrying, was not far off world class already and that if his scrums improved he could be the best loosehead in the world. For me he also has a better mentality than Corbs. Although he has gone over the top and been sent off etc I like my front row to intimidate the opposition. As a TH i would rather go to war against Corbs than Marler. Not saying Corbs is soft, but he doesnt seem as in your face as the Quins lad.

IMO Marler's case is helped by Jannie Du Plessis not being the best TH around. I would hesitate to throw Marler into a test against Adam Jones or Castro but despite its sll-round superb quality TH is one position where the Bok pack is lacking.

Wondered what your thoughts were on the question? has Marler done enough to mount a serious challenge or is he still a work in progress?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Lindsay looks a real talent but his lineout throwing is just not progressing.

He's a beast of a scrummager (Wasps scrum always looks very impressive with him in there compared to Webber) and he is great around the park.

Why can he not throw!?!?!? I'd have him in the England set-up with ease if he could.

I think his throwing, and Wasps' lineout, has come on massively this season.

Is Stevens even in the top 5 looseheads in the country?

Maybe Stevens is playing for his place? If he does Poopie (fingers crossed) he might get dropped off the bench for Doran-Jones (if he has a good game). I'd rather them find this out in barbarians game rather than the 1st test

ChequeredJersey wrote:Is Stevens even in the top 5 looseheads in the country?

I don't think he is, in my opinion he is behind Corbisiero, Marler, Ayerza, Tonga'uhia and Mullan and he doesn't even play loosehead regularly for Saracens!

[quote="ChequeredJersey"]Is Stevens even in the top 5 looseheads in the country?[/quote

all looseheads or english ones?

1. Ayerza
2. Corbisiero
3. Marler
4. Tonga'uiha
5. Mullan

English

1. Corbisiero
2. Marler
3. Mullan
4. Golding
5. Mercey

whether Golding and Mercey are better is definately an area of contention, but to be honest I would rather them than stevens. Golding is only a year older than stevens according to wiki and he has proved himself a good scrummager with a high work rate. both of which are absent in stevens. Mercey is young and has potential so I would rather he toured to get some experience and playing time, same with Keiran Brookes.

with my most unbiased head though I would probably say that Stevens is better right now than Brookes or Mercey, but I would rather they went on tour. For me stevens is far enough down the pecking order, probably 5th choice prop overall for the position to be given to a promising youngster

Stevens is probably the 4th best LH currently available, although I wonder if Alex Waller isn't better as well (don't know why anyone is talking about Mercy, who doesn't make the Saints matchday 23). I just think not starting Mullan is daft.

On the TH side there are players coming through (Brookes, Palmer-Newport, Thomas, Collier, Sinkler), but they tend to be 2-3 year younger than the LH's who have just broken into international contention, so we may have to make do with PDJ and maybe Rupert Harden as back up to Cole for a while.

Vunipola is also an interesting one. A huge talent. I'd like to see him focus on TH, but think Sarries may see him more as a LH.

While I perfectly understand the 'currently Corbs holds the shirt' view, it's not one I subscribe to.

Corbs is a good player playing well but for my money Marler is a good player playing better. It's the coaches job to make those calls but if he believes that Marler can play better, he needs to back himself and pick him. It's the main difference between a top coach and the rest and it's something that England have been terrible at. I sometimes wonder whether it's an innate conservatism that exists in our general culture and therefore unfortunately prevales in our sporting one. In my view, it helps little but hinders a lot.

Marler has this season been gaining a reputation as a good scrummager while still being excellent in the loose where his carries, ruckwork and tackling have been immense. I also think he's fast becoming a huge player for Quins, in that he's a natural leader, not necessarily in the captaincy sense, but in so far as someone who raises their own performance when it matters and manages somehow to raise others with him.

Please don't misunderstand me, Corbs is a good player. I just happen to think that Marler will be a great one given the chance and I think he will be over the duration of the tour.

judging from his performance today im actually going to say joe marler should get the shirt. i reckon he could be the best in the world in 2 years. he and cole could be by far the best two props in a single international team by the next rwc. and they could partner each other for a decade

dont get me wrong I see Corbs as potentially in the top 4 in the world as well, so we could be in the absolutely fantastic position of having 2 world class looseheads with the likes of mullan and vunipola providing backup!

and to think we relied on tim payne a couple of years ago

I agree, Marler has the all round game to become the best loosehead in the world in a few years time. It's amazing the strength in depth we are going to have at loosehead in the future.

Beaker wrote:While I perfectly understand the 'currently Corbs holds the shirt' view, it's not one I subscribe to.

Corbs is a good player playing well but for my money Marler is a good player playing better. It's the coaches job to make those calls but if he believes that Marler can play better, he needs to back himself and pick him. It's the main difference between a top coach and the rest and it's something that England have been terrible at. I sometimes wonder whether it's an innate conservatism that exists in our general culture and therefore unfortunately prevalent in our sporting one. In my view, it helps little but hinders a lot.

Marler has this season been gaining a reputation as a good scrummager while still being excellent in the loose where his carries, ruckwork and tackling have been immense. I also think he's fast becoming a huge player for Quins, in that he's a natural leader, not necessarily in the captaincy sense, but in so far as someone who raises their own performance when it matters and manages somehow to raise others with him.

Please don't misunderstand me, Corbs is a good player. I just happen to think that Marler will be a great one given the chance and I think he will be over the duration of the tour.

Would you still give him his first cap in the first test of the SA tour though? I generally think it's best to bring frontline, specialised players off the bench in their first test, particularly if it's a high pressure game, you never know how they are going to react to international rugby and that sort of hostile environment.

Having said that, with him on a high from winning the AP final and if Corbisero remains injured for another week, I'd probably err on starting him in Durban.

Yes definitely. To me he's the sort that thrives the more pressure is put on him. That said, what probably will occur is he will get a chance in the midweek team and take it from there.

mattraven wrote:judging from his performance today im actually going to say joe marler should get the shirt. i reckon he could be the best in the world in 2 years. he and cole could be by far the best two props in a single international team by the next rwc. and they could partner each other for a decade

dont get me wrong I see Corbs as potentially in the top 4 in the world as well, so we could be in the absolutely fantastic position of having 2 world class looseheads with the likes of mullan and vunipola providing backup!

and to think we relied on tim payne a couple of years ago

I was nodding my head in agreement until your final sentence. Then I had to hold it in my hands while I sobbed!

Zander wrote:I agree, Marler has the all round game to become the best loosehead in the world in a few years time. It's amazing the strength in depth we are going to have at loosehead in the future.

Aye, we just need decent back-up to Cole and Hartley and i'll be a happy sinner

Beaker wrote:Yes definitely. To me he's the sort that thrives the more pressure is put on him. That said, what probably will occur is he will get a chance in the midweek team and take it from there.

Players can certainly thrive under pressure, but I think there is a limit to that and under normal circumstances I think that would be poor player management and a step too far to test an inexperienced 21yo under, a first test of a tour a long way from home in an arena baying for blood (I even reckon an opening 6N match in Cardiff or Dublin would be a more favourable first cap).

However, given that the more experienced options will be a player that hasn't had a game in 2 months and has only been training a week, or Stevens, it's a chance I'd take in this case.

I'd like to say I think Wood is up there too

niwatts wrote:
Players can certainly thrive under pressure, but I think there is a limit to that and under normal circumstances I think that would be poor player management and a step too far to test an inexperienced 21yo under, a first test of a tour a long way from home in an arena baying for blood (I even reckon an opening 6N match in Cardiff or Dublin would be a more favourable first cap).

However, given that the more experienced options will be a player that hasn't had a game in 2 months and has only been training a week, or Stevens, it's a chance I'd take in this case.

Are we are presuming that players are not ready based on age/experience as opposed to character? SL knows Marler through the age grades and will doubtless have had many talks with O'Shea and even Robshaw about the type of player Marler is and the mindset he has. If his form is deserving and he has the right attitude (and i'm arguing that I think he has) than he should be picked. That said, perhaps SL has had those conversations and simply doesn't think he's ready just yet.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'd like to say I think Wood is up there too

I thought Wood looked great for much of the season but when I saw him a couple of times before his injury, he seemed to be struggling at scrumtime. Perhaps he was carrying a niggle or something.

Had to vote for the Eastbourne lad.He happens to be pretty useful in open play.

Beaker wrote:

niwatts wrote:
Players can certainly thrive under pressure, but I think there is a limit to that and under normal circumstances I think that would be poor player management and a step too far to test an inexperienced 21yo under, a first test of a tour a long way from home in an arena baying for blood (I even reckon an opening 6N match in Cardiff or Dublin would be a more favourable first cap).

However, given that the more experienced options will be a player that hasn't had a game in 2 months and has only been training a week, or Stevens, it's a chance I'd take in this case.

Are we are presuming that players are not ready based on age/experience as opposed to character? SL knows Marler through the age grades and will doubtless have had many talks with O'Shea and even Robshaw about the type of player Marler is and the mindset he has. If his form is deserving and he has the right attitude (and i'm arguing that I think he has) than he should be picked. That said, perhaps SL has had those conversations and simply doesn't think he's ready just yet.

As I've said, in normal circumstances I don't think it is good practice to start a player for his first cap in what will be a substantially different and hostile environment when the incumbent has been performing well, it's lumping more pressure than is necessary on them. Far better to give them their first cap from the bench in such an environment.

Taking it to the extreme, would you start a player for their first cap in a WC final when the incumbent had been playing well for you? Or would you speculate that even the best attitude could be surmounted by the occasion?

As it is, with Corbisero injured for the Barbarians and not having played for 2 months I would start Marler in the first test. However, if Corbisero were fit and playing in the Barbarians and performed well again I'd retain him in the shirt for the first test. There would certainly be a valid argument that Marler has been playing better for his club (though that is more demonstrable in a far better performing club environment) and would be deserving, and if it were a home test or Corbisero hadn't been doing well for England I'd more readily go that way.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'd like to say I think Wood is up there too

oh yeah I completely forgot about wood! I also rate him better than stevens, and have heard good things about his club form. from what I understandhe isn't yet at the level of Marler or Corbisiero, but along with Mullan certainly provides even more strength in depth. I reckon he and Mullan are slightly unlucky, as a few years ago they would really have been pushing for the strating position when we had an injury prone sheridan then tim payne, but unfortunately for them thay now have marler and corbs to knock out the way, who are both very young

niwatts,

Forgive me but I see no point in making extraneous suppostions about debuts in WC finals. It is what it is, SA vs England in a summer tour and I hope he gets his chance to play. If he does, while I agree that it will be hostile, I also happen to think Marler will acquit himself well.

As you rightly say, Corbs hasn't played much so Marler's opportunity may well come by default...unless SL brings back Payne to add some much need years and experience to the side

Anyway, I can't see us agreeing much on this, which is no biggie and why these boards are such fun!

Castro has stated that Nick Wood is the best scrummager he has faced. He is probably the best of the bunch technically but he is significantly older than Corbs and Marler (though still not old for a prop) and also a bit smaller. Wood is a fine player and I'm sure he would do an admirable job for England were he selected, but I think the younger guys have the potential to be some of the top props in the world. I'd stick with them for now.

On the topic of Corbs v Marler, I think it depends on the mindset of the selectors. Some would say Corbs is the man in possession and has done nothing to merit being dropped. Others would say you should select the best available guys for each match independently. I tend to agree with those who say let Corbs continue in the starting role and give Marler his debut off the bench - he'd certainly make an impact. Marler showed his appetite for a big game today but away in SA is a different prospect. However I also agree with those who have said that unless Corbs gets back into training soon athen Marler should get the nod. I'd rather risk a hostile debut than an injury liability. Going forward though it's great to have 2 strong options, I have no issue with rotation in the front row and I think this is the way we should go.

Wood has a quality all round game, but a significant downside has been that he was one of the most heavily penalised props in the league this season (2nd only to Johnson I think), 26 penalties in 17 games.

Beaker wrote:niwatts,

Forgive me but I see no point in making extraneous suppostions about debuts in WC finals. It is what it is, SA vs England in a summer tour and I hope he gets his chance to play. If he does, while I agree that it will be hostile, I also happen to think Marler will acquit himself well.

I wanted to establish the degree to which we differ in opinion, if you didn't believe that an occasion has the potential to present unnecessary pressure for a first cap start or just that you thought SA in Durban wasn't significant enough an occasion to do so.

I also think Marler would probably come out in credit, but just that if Corbisero were fit and playing to the standard he showed in the 6N it would be better player management and Marler would be better served coming off the bench for his first cap in such an environment.

I'd start Marler and bench Corbs, if Marler does struggle then bring on corbs.

For what it's worth I don't think Marler will struggle, but this isn't because of his character, more because Cole seems to make life massively easy for any one he props with, he is the real talent in that scrum.

Vickery said it was nightmare waiting on the bench for your first cap. Not knowing when it will happen, the pressure building and building. He didn't get on and started the game for his first and he said it was a lot better (in terms of preparing for it, etc). The 'best' way, arguably, is to come on for a couple of minutes at the end of a 'won' game just to pop the cherry.

Beaker wrote:While I perfectly understand the 'currently Corbs holds the shirt' view, it's not one I subscribe to.

Corbs is a good player playing well but for my money Marler is a good player playing better. It's the coaches job to make those calls but if he believes that Marler can play better, he needs to back himself and pick him. It's the main difference between a top coach and the rest and it's something that England have been terrible at. I sometimes wonder whether it's an innate conservatism that exists in our general culture and therefore unfortunately prevales in our sporting one. In my view, it helps little but hinders a lot.

I think if you start to feel that you may be dropped, despite playing well, just because someone out of the team might do a better job you start to really destabilise team spirit. What's the point of playing well if you face being dropped for someone who might be better? Corbs was excellent in the 6 Nations. If he isn't match fit he shouldn't play, if he is he should start until he gets injured, plays badly or needs a rest.

Let's be honest, it's not like Marler is facing a wait of years before he gets a start. He will get a chance and if he takes it he will also expect to keep the shirt until injury or a poor game.

yappysnap wrote:I'd start Marler and bench Corbs, if Marler does struggle then bring on corbs.

For what it's worth I don't think Marler will struggle, but this isn't because of his character, more because Cole seems to make life massively easy for any one he props with, he is the real talent in that scrum.

really???

How come when Stevens propped on the loosehead side with Cole against Scotland in the world cup they both got their heads shoved up their orses then???

It's all about how individuals work together as unit in the front row and we know that as a pair of props Cole and Corbisiero work. In simple terms, although it's more complicated really, Corbs works well with Cole as Cole is very good at taking the hit and not having that moment of initial instability. This works for Corbs as he is able to get the initial bind quickly and attack quickly. I haven't watched enough of Marler to know how he scrummages, but I am in agreement with DaveM that the shirt is Corbs to loose given how well he has played in his last few outings for England.

There were suggestions from a couple of commentators etc yesterday that Marler's binding is wrong/illegal. I.E that he binds on the arm, rather than the shirt. Is anyone in a position to say whether that's true, or whether it could cause him problems.

He usually binds very long on the opponent, near their shorts. If he was going on the arm then it was probably planned.

Binding on the arms tends to be tightheads. Most do it but it's only given on the whim of the ref.

Marler's bind is the most obviously and flamboyantly legal of any loosehead I've seen. He binds with a straight arm to the back of the shirt, near the shorts, and I've never seen him bind any other way.

Bizarrely, some refs have pinged him in the past for binding on the arm, but they have stopped since the IRB added basic anatomy to the refereeing syllabus.

The long bind doesn't leave the opposing TH many places to hide; they're not going to con a ref that he's dropping his bind, because he visibly isn't. I suspect he'll work well with Cole, for all that they had a titanic battle on Saturday.

The Quins prop whose bind is questionable is JJ. He binds on the armpit - but then most modern THs do.

DaveM wrote:
I think if you start to feel that you may be dropped, despite playing well, just because someone out of the team might do a better job you start to really destabilise team spirit. What's the point of playing well if you face being dropped for someone who might be better? Corbs was excellent in the 6 Nations. If he isn't match fit he shouldn't play, if he is he should start until he gets injured, plays badly or needs a rest.

Let's be honest, it's not like Marler is facing a wait of years before he gets a start. He will get a chance and if he takes it he will also expect to keep the shirt until injury or a poor game.

If you're dropped because someone is playing better, (yes, even for their club) than I hope the coach carefully explains why and assures you that you will get all the support required to improve your own game. Hopefully you on your part will man up. This is top level sport! Striving for excellence should be the first consideration that the coach(es) and players buy into and clearly how you achieve this is the main dispute here.

As is clear, I disagree with many on here. That said to an extent i'm playing devils advocate. I think Marler will be given chances over the duration of the tour, not necessarily a start in the first test. I also think he will take whatever opportunity offered. Whatever happens however, I hope he never feels comfortable or settled or believes that the shirt is his. Ever.

As i think i've already said, Corbs is a good player and long may he and Marler be competing and pushing each other to ever greater performances.

Agree with everything Beaker has said there.

Why not stick with

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole

Then on 50 - 60 mins we can look to bring on Marler ...and then a little later Tom youngs for their debuts.
That will still be giving England a strong scrummaging front row...but also serious mobility and aggression...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Why not stick with

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole

Then on 50 - 60 mins we can look to bring on Marler ...and then a little later Tom youngs for their debuts.
That will still be giving England a strong scrummaging front row...but also serious mobility and aggression...

I'd rather have Joe Gray coming on than Tom Youngs. Youngs' lineout is a liability...

Ok Gray...see how he goes...

I do think Lindsay, Youngs and George are the future Hookers...

Though if Hartley performs like he did on Sunday....its gonna be real difficult getting that shirt off him permanently....

I think Wood tailed off towards the end of the season because the number of games he had to play. Dan Murphy was his backup and he is shoite.

I'd stick with Corbs. He's done well and in a tour in SA more experience could be crucial. I know sometimes the player in possesion should not keep the shirt, but in the case of the frontrow, i thikn they should. Maybe if it was a 10 or 12 and and the team were looking to vastly change the way they play it would be an option but changing the loosehead prop is unlikely to do this. And the way the combo of Corbs, Hartley and Cole has worked means changing it would be stupid.

For those suggesting Marler should be on the bench, he shouldn't. Look at how Ireland's scrum got smashed against England when Court (a loosehead) was propping at tighthead. And no Corbs can not just move to tighthead, he has not played there for ages. It would be a disaster for England if Cole got injured early on and Corbs had to play 3. Its a straight battle between PDJ and Stevens for the bench spot. I would guess that is why Stevens played loosehead vs BaaBaas to see how he would get on at 1, and see if he was still a good quality bench option.

Unfortunately for Marler until the IRB get their act together and allow 8 men benches its a start or nothing unless England want to risk a complete battering up front.

Beaker wrote:
If you're dropped because someone is playing better, (yes, even for their club) than I hope the coach carefully explains why and assures you that you will get all the support required to improve your own game. Hopefully you on your part will man up. This is top level sport! Striving for excellence should be the first consideration that the coach(es) and players buy into and clearly how you achieve this is the main dispute here.

Whatever happens however, I hope he never feels comfortable or settled or believes that the shirt is his. Ever.

Arguing against a point that hasn't been made I think. Nobody is saying Corbs should be guarenteed the shirt, just that you should be judged on you recent performances. Corbisero was part of a sensational England front row performance, one of the most destructive for many years. To drop him because Marler has played well at club level just doesn't feel right. From what we've seen at international level Corbs doesn't need support to 'improve your own game', he just needs the chance he has earned himself to get back out on the pitch and see what he can do to the SA TH.

DaveM wrote:

Beaker wrote:
If you're dropped because someone is playing better, (yes, even for their club) than I hope the coach carefully explains why and assures you that you will get all the support required to improve your own game. Hopefully you on your part will man up. This is top level sport! Striving for excellence should be the first consideration that the coach(es) and players buy into and clearly how you achieve this is the main dispute here.

Whatever happens however, I hope he never feels comfortable or settled or believes that the shirt is his. Ever.

Arguing against a point that hasn't been made I think. Nobody is saying Corbs should be guarenteed the shirt, just that you should be judged on you recent performances. Corbisero was part of a sensational England front row performance, one of the most destructive for many years. To drop him because Marler has played well at club level just doesn't feel right. From what we've seen at international level Corbs doesn't need support to 'improve your own game', he just needs the chance he has earned himself to get back out on the pitch and see what he can do to the SA TH.

DaveM, apologies if my comments have come across as unnecessarily argumentative. It wasn't my intention, i simply write as I think, perhaps with insufficient self-editing!

Without picking up your points individually, my overview of our scrum during the 6N probably differs from yours. I agree the scrum was sensational and destructive, but that was against a seriously underpowered Ireland. So for me it was a one-off until proven otherwise. Otherwise, I thought our scrum held it's own except against the Welsh where they edged it. As many were touting our scrum to be a weakness before the tournament, i was delighted with how it went. As you can probably see from my comments, I think there's plenty of room for improvement in our scrum. However it's not just the scrum I want to see progress in. I've mentioned Marler's loose game but one of my main concerns for this current England team is that it seriously lacks ball carriers, especially the sort that can smash it up in heavy traffic. Marler really is quality in this area. In fact, he seems as comfortable carrying in the open as he is in the tight. I think he will be a remarkable player for England but I accept that he has proven nothing yet. To clear up any doubts you may have after reading my comments, no, I am not his mother

That will be it from me as i'm probably just repeating myself. I enjoy reading all the other views though, even the mistaken ones

I'd start corbs if he'd been playing regularly, but with the layoff I think Marler should get the start.

You don't need to worry about dropping him in the deep end. In the short time he's been in the starting team at quins he has played better and with a bigger smile on his face, the bigger the occasion! The only people who should be worried about the prospect of him starting are down in SA imo.

In recent weeks, Marler has packed down against, PDJ, Mujati, Cole and Castro in a semi final and a final and done pretty well against all of them to the extent that he has played about 140 minutes of the 160. The others were worn down by him. I would have no doubts about him on the big occassion.

Looking at the Mullan tackle on Hook, it showed Mullans pace but he appears to have beefed up a bit since then, doesn't seem quite as quick.

Quins fans would know, but wasn't Marler running in tries from the half way line when he was on loan to Esher. I seem to remember reports about him being an "express train" when getting the ball in open play. He was also likened to a open side flanker for his steals at the breakdown.

He is still quick for 19 stone and clever around the breakdown, is it the step up to the AP that has reduced his effectiveness in those areas?

Well Past It, google some of Marlers tries from the U20's. He has some serious pace when in space, but doesn't get to use it too often as he's our main carrier in the tight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vgGYjXmtuo

Corbs has the shirt, Marlers form must've taken it off him... I'd let Corbs play most in SA and introduce Marler slowly. Give him the odd appearance and then set him free come AI or 6N time!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In recent weeks, Marler has packed down against, PDJ, Mujati, Cole and Castro in a semi final and a final and done pretty well against all of them to the extent that he has played about 140 minutes of the 160. The others were worn down by him. I would have no doubts about him on the big occassion.

It is worth remembering that Corbisiero packed down against Murray, Castrogiovanni, Jones, Mas and Ross and did pretty well against these guys as well. He also had reasonable sucess against Tom Court which really seals the deal for me! In all seriousness, that is a pretty tough bunch of tightheads and only Jones really had the nudge on him and he is almost certainly the premier TH in world rugby at the moment. Castro had the nudge on at the first scrum, from memory, but Corbs adjusted well to at least gain parity before Castro went off.

I am not sure how good a second row of Botha/Parling is in a srummaging sense, so the very fact that Corbs/Hartley/Cole worked exceptionally well as a unit is enough evidence for me that Corbisiero should keep the shirt for the first test. I am not always of the opinion that the incumbent player should keep the shirt regardless, but I think in this instance, it should be applied. If Du Plessis and Mtawarira are the props for South Africa, then I fancy Englands chances to get the nudge on in the front row. I don't rate Du Plessis all that highly as a scrummager and Cole certainly won't be Vickeried against the Beast as his technique is way too good. Bringing Marler straight in and unbalancing a front row that is clearly comfortable with each other is risk that I don't feel needs to be taken just yet. It worrys me that England may unnecessarily give away the advantage in a crucial area.

Having said that, I don't doubt for one minute that Marler is a big game player and will play a lot of tests for England, but timing is everything and right now isn't the time to unleash him. If Tim Payne was still wearing the number 1 shirt then there wouldn't even be an argument, but it is a position of real strength for England at the moment.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:In recent weeks, Marler has packed down against, PDJ, Mujati, Cole and Castro in a semi final and a final and done pretty well against all of them to the extent that he has played about 140 minutes of the 160. The others were worn down by him. I would have no doubts about him on the big occassion.

Looking at the Mullan tackle on Hook, it showed Mullans pace but he appears to have beefed up a bit since then, doesn't seem quite as quick.

Quins fans would know, but wasn't Marler running in tries from the half way line when he was on loan to Esher. I seem to remember reports about him being an "express train" when getting the ball in open play. He was also likened to a open side flanker for his steals at the breakdown.

He is still quick for 19 stone and clever around the breakdown, is it the step up to the AP that has reduced his effectiveness in those areas?

Marler played every minute of the semi and final, and still had the energy left to shove a Leicester pack sporting a fresh front row a yard backwards at the death. That's a front row featuring Castrogiovanni, who alone has more caps than the entire Quins pack (and replacements) combined.

Leaving aside the fact that it's a little different from mullering Tom Court out of position, Corbs should hold on to the shirt... if he were match fit. Which he's not. There's nothing unfair or demoralising about letting a player coming off a long-term injury ease himself back into the game. Quite the opposite - throwing a player who's been out for two months onto the pitch against a Bokke front row featuring the Beast doesn't sound fair to me. Also, a recipe for injury.

If Corbs goes like a train in practice and hasn't lost that hardness in the time off, then I am sure Rowntree will play him. But I'd be surprised if he's really ready for the first test (surely he'd have played at least part of Sunday if he were?), in which case isn't it great to have a backup option like Marler?

Poorfour wrote:
Bokke front row featuring the Beast doesn't sound fair to me. Also, a recipe for injury.

I genuinely don't think South Africa's front row is the area of concern for the English forward pack. Not at scrum time anyway. Mtawarira is nowhere near as effective as his mystique allows. Put him against a TH with solid technique and he is just another decent international loosie at scrum time. Cole is great at taking the initial hit and keeps his back-side and left shoulder low enough which should, in theory, allow him to stop the Beast getting underneath him.

I fear the physicality of the Saffer pack around the park, but not at scrum time.

You're quite right though, Rowntree is the best person to judge Corbisiero and if he feels his not ready, then I have no doubt he will make the call for Marler. And yes, he is a great option to have in reserve!

Right the decision may come down to Corbs fitness and sharpness.

Or they may just go with Stevens just to pee everyone off.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Or they may just go with Stevens just to pee everyone off.

God, I hope not!

Heck, start with Mears at hooker and get Payne on the plane too.