Another young Scot flees the country

From today's Hootsmon:

Clermont still covet Scots as Murdo McAndrew heads to France

By DAVID FERGUSON

As they bid farewell to Jason White, leading French club Clermont Auvergne have swooped again to snap up a talented young Scot.

Last year Clermont signed Mark Bennett and, while the 19-year-old from Ayrshire suffered a cruciate ligament injury in August, he has come back strongly and on Sunday helped Clermont’s under-23 side into the national final against Perpignan with victory over Montpellier.

But as he was preparing for that game, and White was thanking the club’s supporters to great cheers on the pitch, 18-year-old Murdo McAndrew and his father Les were enjoying the company of Clermont’s academy director Rioux Bertrand in the Stade Marcel-Michelin hospitality suite.

Born in Kirkcaldy, McAndrew came through Bell Baxter High School and Howe of Fife rugby clubs before taking up a scholarship at Strathallan School in this, his final year. The scrum-half has winner’s medals from the national under-15 and under-16 bowl competitions and the Brewin Dolphin Schools Plate, has represented Caledonia for the past three years and captained Scotland under-18s on occasion this season.

Bertrand spotted McAndrew playing for the under-18s in the European Championships in Madrid at Easter. Having been pleased with Bennett’s progress this season, he again contacted his and White’s agent, the former Scotland full-back Rowen Shepherd, now of Red Sky Management, and enquired about McAndrew. Shepherd arranged for the youngster and his father to fly to France last weekend as part of a Xodus Group-sponsored trip to support White in his last game.

Bertrand told The Scotsman: “Scottish players are doing quite well for us. We are still to work things out for Murdo but I am very hopeful that he will agree to join us too.

“It is very important for us to develop our own talent here in Clermont, and in our senior squad right now we have 17 local boys like Aurelien Rougerie, Wesley Fofana and Jean-Marcel Buttin, who made his France debut in the Six Nations this year.

“But this is a big club that wants to be the best, and so sometimes we have to look elsewhere for the kind of players we need. We have Fijians and All Blacks of course, and Jason and Nathan Hines have done well, and Mark has done very well this season too, so we know there is good talent in Scotland.

“I saw Murdo in Madrid and he is a very good scrum-half. Our plan here for him is to work in the academy, where he will learn French and train, and come through to the under-23s like Mark. But his challenge and goal is the same as everyone here: to play for the senior professional team.”

McAndrew admitted the interest had come as a surprise but he is excited at the prospect of taking his first steps in the professional game with one of France’s leading clubs. “It came right out of the blue and the weekend was amazing,” he said. “I didn’t know what to expect but the facilities are great and the fact that there are some Scots boys there has helped.

“I met Mark and had dinner with him and he told me a lot about what he has done this season, and how he has got used to life out there. And that has been very reassuring. I always wanted to be a professional rugby player and since coming through the Caley age-group sides I’ve begun to believe that I can be.”

I say fair play to the young lad and I hope it really works out for him - he will be a Scotland star of the future, and is the best of the next generation of scrumhalves after Greig Laidlaw imo

It's concerning though. Ultimately Scotland needs more people through the gates to watch Glasgow and Edinburgh. The more quality players for Scotland are overseas based, the less likely international support is to carry over to the two pro sides. This guy sounds like he could be a future Scotland star as you say- the likes of Edinburgh and Glasgow need those guys to stay competitive and market themselves.

Notch wrote:It's concerning though. Ultimately Scotland needs more people through the gates to watch Glasgow and Edinburgh. The more quality players for Scotland are overseas based, the less likely international support is to carry over to the two pro sides. This guy sounds like he could be a future Scotland star as you say- the likes of Edinburgh and Glasgow need those guys to stay competitive and market themselves.

Notch, tis true, but in fairness to this guy and Bennett before him, I think he is making a brave (and correct) call on where he is likely to get the best rugby education - and that is at a French academy playing alongside future French stars and with some of the best coaching in the world rather than at one of the two Scottish academies and being loaned out to various Scottish premiership clubs - it's an honest but uncomfortable truth

Not entirely sure I agree with you As, it's a brave move by him and Bennet before him. Look at the young Scottish players emerging through the Scottish 7s system in recent times : Hogg, Jones, Leonard, Scott and you could also mention the likes of Dunbar, Macarthur, Welsh and others who have been developed at home.

All these guys bided their time and tok their chance when it came. I think Benned and McAndrew have been a wee bit hasty in moving to Clermont.

I have no doubt they'll learn a lot from the likes of Para and Rougerie, but I can't help but think they have been too hasty.

The six nations needs a strong Scotland again, I would be absolutley gutted if anything were to happen to them, I would also like to see both Glasgow and Edinburgh to become power houses, I rember when the HC was first introduced and the Scottish sides were always daunting places to go, also the national side hardly ever lost at Murrifield, as a Welshman I would welcome anything to see the Scots back on an even keel.

I think this is a great move for him and one more and more young scottish players should try and make. There are a lot of talented players in the Scottish system but a lot are lost to rugby as the opportunity to play proffessional rugby in Scotland isn't there. A lot go of to uni and and go into careers and give up rugby, a lot of these guys are good enough to be pro players but are lost to Scotland because of the lack of places and the suspect player development that the SRU gives to players.
Bennett and McAndrew could well stay in Scotland and play pro but would they get any significant game time or would they just be in the gym etc. The development they will get out there will be far more beneficial to them and in the long run to Scotland too.

I see that side of the argument Majestic, but what worries me is that they won't be playing competative rugby like their peers in Scotland. They'll be playing in the U23 league with Clermont which is nowhere near as competative as what they would be facing if they were snapped up by the likes of Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Bennet almost certainly would have featured for Glasgow IMO but he didn't even give playing at home a chance.

Now the likes of Dunbar have stepped into the slot he missed out on.

Some could argue it's his decision that paved the way for Dunbar, fair enough. Bennet however is not playing as competative rugby as he would be had he stayed is my opinion and his loss.

Once Bennet is older than 23 can any of us see him Displacing Fofana, Rougerie or Canale?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I see that side of the argument Majestic, but what worries me is that they won't be playing competative rugby like their peers in Scotland. They'll be playing in the U23 league with Clermont which is nowhere near as competative as what they would be facing if they were snapped up by the likes of Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Bennet almost certainly would have featured for Glasgow IMO but he didn't even give playing at home a chance.

Now the likes of Dunbar have stepped into the slot he missed out on.

Some could argue it's his decision that paved the way for Dunbar, fair enough. Bennet however is not playing as competative rugby as he would be had he stayed is my opinion and his loss.

Once Bennet is older than 23 can any of us see him Displacing Fofana, Rougerie or Canale?

Radge, yes, in all honesty, I can - he's 19, so that's 4 years away. For me it's not solely about how much competitive league rugby a player gets, but how they develop in a broader sense. Remember that Bennett did play a couple of games towards the end of the season before this for Glasgow, so knew exactly what awaited him in the academy at Glasgow. I imagine he saw Morrison and Murchie/Horne getting picked before him for every decent game, and said 'no, thank you' - I for one don't blame him in the slightest, and am convinced, along with Majestic, that this will ultimately be to Scotland's benefit

Once Bennet is older than 23 can any of us see him Displacing Fofana, Rougerie or Canale?

Canale is off at the end of the season and so Regan King will be the player in the way. Considering King and Rougerie are now both 31 and Bennet is what 19/20? In a couple of years time he has an excellent chance of slotting into that midfield alongside Fofana.

Still gutted from a Glasgow and Scotland point of view that Bennett wasn't persuaded to stay in Scotland. Given what Dunbar and Hogg have achieved this season, I don't think Bennett would have struggled to make a similar impact. Then again, maybe I'm just choking to see an end to the tyranny of de Luca and Morrison.

I think Bennett is a rare type of player who at 18 could have played for Glasgow first team but the majority of other 18, 19, 20 year olds wouldn't and if you look at how quick the SRU push them on then they definitely wouldn't have been.

Bennett has already played for the clermont first team albeit in pre season friendlies which is where he injured himself. The U23 set up in France is more a finishing school for young players and the likliehood is that Bennett will be in the first team squad next season.

The guys who go off to the french academies will be learning a different mentality to rugby which is all about winning and it is better for some of these young guys to play outside of scotland to learn these different mindsets and then bring it back to Scotland. This will benefit the players around them instead of just relying on the mindset, ideas and skills they pick up from the coaches in Scotland where it doesn't seem to always have positive effects.

Majestic83 wrote:I think Bennett is a rare type of player who at 18 could have played for Glasgow first team but the majority of other 18, 19, 20 year olds wouldn't and if you look at how quick the SRU push them on then they definitely wouldn't have been.

Bennett has already played for the clermont first team albeit in pre season friendlies which is where he injured himself. The U23 set up in France is more a finishing school for young players and the likliehood is that Bennett will be in the first team squad next season.

The guys who go off to the french academies will be learning a different mentality to rugby which is all about winning and it is better for some of these young guys to play outside of scotland to learn these different mindsets and then bring it back to Scotland. This will benefit the players around them instead of just relying on the mindset, ideas and skills they pick up from the coaches in Scotland where it doesn't seem to always have positive effects.

+1

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Now the likes of Dunbar have stepped into the slot he missed out on.

Some could argue it's his decision that paved the way for Dunbar, fair enough. Bennet however is not playing as competative rugby as he would be had he stayed is my opinion and his loss.

Once Bennet is older than 23 can any of us see him Displacing Fofana, Rougerie or Canale?

I think this is the key point. We have 2 teams and 30 starting places. We have given starts and valuable experience to as many players as we could this season.

Thank goodness they've done brilliantly and havent let anyone down. But there is a limit to how many players you can blood in a season and how many seasons you can follow that model for. Clubs also need to progress and to win to keep their best players.

I'd have done exactly the same as Bennett if I had one iota of his talent. It sounds like he is going well, no he's not starting yet, but he's learning and he's got plenty of time. I'm glad Clermont seem to rate young Scots and I wish young Murdo McAndrew the best of luck.

The guys who go off to the french academies will be learning a different mentality to rugby

The Clermont under 23s team drag young talent from all over the globe to try and guarentee the best young talent. They also have an exchange programme set up with Leicester Tigers. It should be a real melting pot of cultures and talents over there so I'd imagine they will learn a lot.

Would Edinburgh or Glasgow have opened their door to Bennett / McAndrew or would they have struggled to get game time before their 20s ?
what kind of set up do the Scottish region or the SRU have for young players ?

as for clermont well, their U23 and U21 teams are locally well renowned (current champions in both categories I think). Bennett wasnt the 1st foreigner there (they have one Georgian at least).
U23 is really as fast track to the pro team and players like fofana, rougerie, ric, Domingo and lapandry all came through it while most of them only went there when 18-19.

whocares wrote:Would Edinburgh or Glasgow have opened their door to Bennett / McAndrew or would they have struggled to get game time before their 20s ?
what kind of set up do the Scottish region or the SRU have for young players ?

as for clermont well, their U23 and U21 teams are locally well renowned (current champions in both categories I think). Bennett wasnt the 1st foreigner there (they have one Georgian at least).
U23 is really as fast track to the pro team and players like fofana, rougerie, ric, Domingo and lapandry all came through it while most of them only went there when 18-19.

Bennett almost certainly would have seen some gametime with Glasgow this season, whocares, but at the expense of allowing Dunbar to develop most likely. Next year, McAndrew is more likely to have been loaned out tbh and would have seen next to no gametime for Edinburgh.

Don't Clermont have a couple of talented Canadian youngsters in their academy ranks too?

I'm fairly happy with this - he wouldn't be getting game time at Edinburgh and would only get games at Glasgow is Cusiter was away with Scotland, and even then it would be from the bench.

I'm quite happy with talented young guys spending 2-3 years with Clermont, and coming back when they are 20/21 ready to push for first team places.

Plus, Clermont's under 23's would probably beat most of the premier 1 teams in Scotland anyway!

I think it is great that there are young guys going to foreign academies like McAndrew and also tommy allan and adam sinclair playing out in south africa for western province.
obviously I'd like to see as much as possible being developed in scotland but with the lack of pro teams and not the greatest of development given to the young guys then I'd be happy for more to go off to France, South Africa, Nz etc.
Not only will it toughen them up which is sometimes lacking in the scottish game but if our young guys are playing and beating the local guys then when these guys come to the international stage there won't be as much of a fear factor which i think creeps into the scottish game at times.

What I don't get is, what do Clermont get out of this? Do they really think these guys will move up into the senior team and be regulars for them?

They must do RDW, I'm not complaining since what Bennet could learn about playing Centre from Morrison and Dewey at Glasgow he could write on a postage stamp :

Go to Gym, lift weights, don't learn how to pass ball.

As for what he could learn from Rougerie and Fofana.......

Although I would have thought McAndrew could have learnt a lot from the likes of Laidlaw at the burgh but would probably struggle to displace Leck or the incoming Welshman who's name escapes me at the moment

RDW_Scotland wrote:What I don't get is, what do Clermont get out of this? Do they really think these guys will move up into the senior team and be regulars for them?

1) yes will say half of the U23 get a chance at senior level for ASM and most of the other ones also move to to otehr pro clubs.
2) although they are not french qualified, some of those foreigners could fall into the JIFF quota as they spend a few years in a french club academy. the quota of JIFF player is currently 50% in any T14 squad and might bet higher.

Bennett may have a bit more of a wait than we'd like as he will still be behind the Horse, Forfana, King and Benson Stanley in the centres at Clermont next season.

I think Bennett will have a fight to get into the clermont 1st xv next season but i think he is more than capable of doing it. From what i have been reading about bennett in the french press it seems they have been hugely impressed by him and are expecting him to step up next season.

How long before we see one of these players turning out for France? SRU really needs to do something rather than sitting on its hands like it has been for the last 100 years

mckay1402 wrote:How long before we see one of these players turning out for France? SRU really needs to do something rather than sitting on its hands like it has been for the last 100 years

I would say there is very little chance of them playing for France. They aren't going to change their nationality to France just because they are playing out there.

Majestic83 wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:How long before we see one of these players turning out for France? SRU really needs to do something rather than sitting on its hands like it has been for the last 100 years

I would say there is very little chance of them playing for France. They aren't going to change their nationality to France just because they are playing out there.

I recently read Neil Drysdale's book about the history of Borders rugby and was quite surprised to find out that a number of Scots played rugby league for England, and not just Great Britain. Given that rugby really is not in great shape in Scotland, I wouldn't be too shocked if a Scot turned out for France, were they able to. Fair enough, most Scots are stupid enough to equate nationalism with watching 'Braveheart' but I'm sure there are one or two out there who would actually like to win something at some point, even at the expense of their 'nationalism'.

At least the French seem reasonable with international release. Wales are having no problems with their clubs. They see the importance of players international ambitions as a positive.

It's not a bad environment for a young lad to learn either.

I hope it works out well for him. Would be great to see the Scots turn the corner in international and club Rugby. Put themselves back where they used to be.

Majestic83 wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:How long before we see one of these players turning out for France? SRU really needs to do something rather than sitting on its hands like it has been for the last 100 years

I would say there is very little chance of them playing for France. They aren't going to change their nationality to France just because they are playing out there.

I totally agree, Maj. The French have criteria around the number of 'foreign' players which they are allowed to play, but I believe (whocares can correct me if I am wrong) that a non-French player that comes up thru the academy is deemed not-foreign for the purposes of that rule, so recruiting guys like Bennett, Census Johnson's wee nephew, a couple of young Canuks that Cudmore introduced and now McAndrew is a convenient way to get around this rule

yes ASBO is correct on the foreign quota (same applies to the armitage brothers for instance as they spent some of their youth learning rugby in south france)
that said, an uncapped foreigner who has been playing in France for 3 years in a row could get called by the french national team ... so I would be worried if I were a Scot if we start seeing tighteads and flyhalves going to France
(no issues for McAndrew though as we dont have shortage of SH!)

I personally think it's a real shame that we are now starting to see an exodus of talent from Scotland before these youngsters have even played professional rugby in Scotland.

We don't have much depth at scrum half playing in Scotland. Edinburgh's scrum halves next season are Chris Leck and Rhys Webb - neither of whom qualify to play for Scotland. Had McAndrew signed for Edinburgh, he would almost certainly have had experience of professional rugby. Look at how fast and quickly young Pyrgos has developed at Glasgow this season. There is no substitute for proper professional rugby matches, playing under pressure.

Compare Mark Bennett with Stuart Hogg. One is still playing kids rugby in France whereas the other is a full international and being talked about as a potential Lion next year. This time last year we were all being told that Mark Bennett will be the messiah of Scottish back play, whereas Hogg was simply a promising youngster.

Because of the limited resources of the Scottish pro sides, we are actually very nicely placed to give young players an opportunity early doors. We've seen that this season, with players like Gilchrist, Dunbar, Jones and Hogg, not just making up numbers but performing strongly in big club games, in some cases knock-out HC matches.

Maybe I'll be wrong and Bennett will emerge from his exodus in France a seriously top class player, having been subjected to coaching techniques and influences far and above anything we can offer in Scotland. I remain sceptical, but I hope to be wrong.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I personally think it's a real shame that we are now starting to see an exodus of talent from Scotland before these youngsters have even played professional rugby in Scotland.

We don't have much depth at scrum half playing in Scotland. Edinburgh's scrum halves next season are Chris Leck and Rhys Webb - neither of whom qualify to play for Scotland. Had McAndrew signed for Edinburgh, he would almost certainly have had experience of professional rugby. Look at how fast and quickly young Pyrgos has developed at Glasgow this season. There is no substitute for proper professional rugby matches, playing under pressure.

Compare Mark Bennett with Stuart Hogg. One is still playing kids rugby in France whereas the other is a full international and being talked about as a potential Lion next year. This time last year we were all being told that Mark Bennett will be the messiah of Scottish back play, whereas Hogg was simply a promising youngster.

Because of the limited resources of the Scottish pro sides, we are actually very nicely placed to give young players an opportunity early doors. We've seen that this season, with players like Gilchrist, Dunbar, Jones and Hogg, not just making up numbers but performing strongly in big club games, in some cases knock-out HC matches.

Maybe I'll be wrong and Bennett will emerge from his exodus in France a seriously top class player, having been subjected to coaching techniques and influences far and above anything we can offer in Scotland. I remain sceptical, but I hope to be wrong.

Richie Rees? Alex Black too

Can't wait for you to be wrong too - I'll be sending you his (now redundant) bucket and spade!

I agree 100% with FES. Had Bennet bided his time at Glasgow I could have seen him ousting Morrision. Much in the same way Hogg muscled his way into the Glasgow side.

McAndrew too I think could have done well at Edinburgh under the coaching of Bradley (himself a scrum half).

Never mind I'll happily be proved wrong for the benefit of Scottish rugby.

Yes, meant Richie Rees. Sodding Welsh names - all sound the same....

If he doesn't play for Clermont first team this season, starting at least half a dozen times, I'll be sending him some rugby top trumps so he and his mates in France can, by playing swapsies, at least learn the names of some professional rugby players, like Harry Leonard, Alex Dunbar, Matt Scott, Lee Jones, Stuart Hogg et al.

I also hope that they will be screening the Lions tour down in France. Important that Bennett can see his old team mate Stuart Hogg in action, just so that he can ring him up afterwards (assuming his parents let him use the phone), and give him some pointers as to how to improve his game, courtesy of the legendary Clermont academy (the same academy that has honed and developed that awesome passing and kicking game that Rougerie has developed).

On FES's last sarcastic point I would have to disagree. I'm sure Bennet will be learning a lot at Clermont but I don't feel he is getting exposed to high end rugby like Dunbar or Hogg.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yes, meant Richie Rees. Sodding Welsh names - all sound the same....

If he doesn't play for Clermont first team this season, starting at least half a dozen times, I'll be sending him some rugby top trumps so he and his mates in France can, by playing swapsies, at least learn the names of some professional rugby players, like Harry Leonard, Alex Dunbar, Matt Scott, Lee Jones, Stuart Hogg et al.

I also hope that they will be screening the Lions tour down in France. Important that Bennett can see his old team mate Stuart Hogg in action, just so that he can ring him up afterwards (assuming his parents let him use the phone), and give him some pointers as to how to improve his game, courtesy of the legendary Clermont academy (the same academy that has honed and developed that awesome passing and kicking game that Rougerie has developed).

You are all , mate!!

Anything I can do to assist Mr Bennett with his seemingly endless development towards world class status

I've not long learned of young Murdo's news.
I personally think it's a fantastic opportunity for the lad. Go for it I say.
Murdo played with my lad for the Under 18's this season and, althought he wasn't the first choice 9, he performed excellently when called upon. I would credit him with being the No. 1 Scrum Half by the end of this season's campaign. I wish him the best of luck.

Bazza wrote:I've not long learned of young Murdo's news.
I personally think it's a fantastic opportunity for the lad. Go for it I say.
Murdo played with my lad for the Under 18's this season and, althought he wasn't the first choice 9, he performed excellently when called upon. I would credit him with being the No. 1 Scrum Half by the end of this season's campaign. I wish him the best of luck.

Welcome to the boards, young Bazza.

Welcome Bazza. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think you're the only parent of a Scotland Under 18 player on here. What position does your lad play? It will be really interesting to hear your thoughts on the talent out there and the standard of coaching

I have played against murdo many times, he was always bell baxters best player however ramsey young (GWC) and Alex Glashan (accies) were always better players than him. Even players such as Alex Webb (boroughmuir/Merchi) is a better scrum half than him however he was overlooked by scotland but was then called up by the irish exiles. We are blesed with talented 9s at youth level and even if he signed for edinbrugh he would have to sit behind sam Hidaglo Clyne and chris leck before getting a chance. Very random signing for clermont but good luck to him as he always seemed like a good lad

Hidalgo Clyne is a Stand-Off/Full Back, so he wouldn't have posed a threat positional wise.
Murdo just has to grasp his opportunity and I'm sure he'll be a far better player for the experience. As in life, we get the breaks and luck sometimes and you have to grasp these with both hands if we want to take things to the next level.
It's also an opportunity for Murdo to be taken out of his comfort zone and mature as a person as well as a rugby player. He will become a better Player and young man as a consequence.
As you say Craig, good luck to him.

Bazza wrote:Hidalgo Clyne is a Stand-Off/Full Back, so he wouldn't have posed a threat positional wise.

See thats what I thought when he was a school boy as he often played 10/12. However when he was playing sevens he often acted as a scrum half and i think he is to small to play anywhere else. Edinburgh's site also says he has played 9 & 10. Would be interesting to see other peoples opinion on him though cause he looks a good prospect.

CraigS1874 wrote:

Bazza wrote:Hidalgo Clyne is a Stand-Off/Full Back, so he wouldn't have posed a threat positional wise.

See thats what I thought when he was a school boy as he often played 10/12. However when he was playing sevens he often acted as a scrum half and i think he is to small to play anywhere else. Edinburgh's site also says he has played 9 & 10. Would be interesting to see other peoples opinion on him though cause he looks a good prospect.

Yeah it looks like Hidalgo-clyne is going to be a 9/10 at Edinburgh in the future from what the coaches have been saying. He hasn't performed at 15 and Edinburgh feel he is going to develop better as a 9.

The fact is Scotland only have 2 pro teams so it makes there simply has to be Scottish players playing abroad. These guys can always come back later, if Scottish rugby is in a better financial state. Hopefully even a 3rd pro team could be set up in the future.

It'll be interesting to see how the players playing in France will work out for the international team when compared to Ireland's policy of keeping the best players in Ireland. In soccer Ireland doesn't even have a pro league, so all the best Irish players go across to sink or swim in the shark infested waters of the Premiership/Championship. But the Irish national team does way better than the Scottish one, who have a fully pro league. So a deficient domestic setup can be overcome.

But I'm glad the best Irish players play for their provinces. It makes our domestic rugby very strong and really helps a great deal in spreading the games popularity.

I really feel someone like Richie Gray should have become an iconic captain of Glasgow, like POC is for Munster. But now he's gone. Not good for improving the popularity of Scottish rugby.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The fact is Scotland only have 2 pro teams so it makes there simply has to be Scottish players playing abroad. These guys can always come back later, if Scottish rugby is in a better financial state. Hopefully even a 3rd pro team could be set up in the future.

It'll be interesting to see how the players playing in France will work out for the international team when compared to Ireland's policy of keeping the best players in Ireland. In soccer Ireland doesn't even have a pro league, so all the best Irish players go across to sink or swim in the shark infested waters of the Premiership/Championship. But the Irish national team does way better than the Scottish one, who have a fully pro league. So a deficient domestic setup can be overcome.

But I'm glad the best Irish players play for their provinces. It makes our domestic rugby very strong and really helps a great deal in spreading the games popularity.

I really feel someone like Richie Gray should have become an iconic captain of Glasgow, like POC is for Munster. But now he's gone. Not good for improving the popularity of Scottish rugby.

Feckless, big Richie, could be gone for 3 years and then back at Glasgow and still only be 25 yrs old - plenty of time yet, my friend

Problem is that Glasgow will need to progress before Gray can be tempted back, and without Gray that'll be difficult to achieve.

Hopefully Campbell and Gray the younger can step up to be a convincing boiler room in his absence. Hopefully they won't leave at the first whiff of wonga.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Problem is that Glasgow will need to progress before Gray can be tempted back, and without Gray that'll be difficult to achieve.

Hopefully Campbell and Gray the younger can step up to be a convincing boiler room in his absence. Hopefully they won't leave at the first whiff of wonga.

Who could blame them if they did?

Glasgow (and Edinburgh) should improve in the coming season given their squad additions - it will be disappointing if they regress after all their recruitment

I wouldn't blame them. I'd be disappointed but I'd understand.

What's annoying about Gray is that he didn't leave for money or to go to a better team. Glasgow offered as much as Sale apparently, he just left to join an inferior team.

What's annoying about Gray is that he didn't leave for money or to go to a better team. Glasgow offered as much as Sale apparently, he just left to join an inferior team.

Sale threatened some good rugby last year, it didn't come to fruitition but the potential was there. They've got some good young players coming through, HEC rugby next season and a brand spanking new ground. They are probably on a par with Glasgow in terms of ability last season but will be looking to move on much more next season with some good signings coming in.

Sam - I do understand the potential at Sale, and I appreciate what they're trying to achieve, but assuming Gray will have had a fair few offers on the table, it surprises me that he went with Sale.

Glasgow have also made some good signings (although it's unclear how many were facilitated by Gray's departure) and will be a force next season.

I'd have understood a move to Toulouse, Biarritz, Leinster or one of the top English sides (by which I mean Leicester, Quins, Saracens and Saints), I just don't really get Sale. I suspect knowing a couple of the players there, Dickinson, MacKenzie and Vernon, might have swayed him. He probably knew that Redpath was joining as well......

I wish him all the best. Hopefully he'll come back north at some stage.