Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

You did not imagine that - it was said. A few weeks ago too.

You think he'll last to 2017?! Thats great news!

Great news on Henry

geoff999rugby wrote:As I mentioned elsewhere Ferris is a doubt for the tour.
He'll want to go but medics may say otherwise.
Best is a possible absentee as well.

He will always have problem he has no cartliage. Bone on bone.
I would be surprised if he is playing beyond the 2017 (?) Lions to be honest.

Some good news - seems almost certain Henry will make it.

Let's hope Ferris doesn't go. I'm gutted about our tour. In a years time we might have had a chance. Exhausted players and a clueless coaching staff mean we are already in damage limitation mode.

Just had a peak on the UAFC forum there. Seriously fed up with attitudes towards or new signings whoever they may be. Theres seriously people saying Spies is crap and we wouldnt want him. (not that theres even any rumours about Spies). But the fact people have such ridiculous high expectations of who we expect to sign is a joke. And it makes me feel like I'm supporting man City here instead of Ulster.

Any true Ulster fan should be hoping that we can compete without our NIQs as soon as possible. Instead so many of us are hoping we can buy our way into staying competitive. I don't mind a solid NIQ backrower to help out during 6N or injuries. But I don't want another big name who can be attributed with 'carrying' our local lads.

I am truely grateful of our current NIQs, but ultimatly, I want to be a team who is feared with 3 or less NIQs on the pitch at any time. And I'd like these NIQs to be long term commitments like Nacewa for Leinster.

And guess what we dont just give a big player a three year deal and then all of a sudden our IQ backup alternative is on a par to step in.

The path to self-sufficiency WILL require a drop in form somwehere along the way. Stop crying for more 'big names'. They won't do us any more good.

Well I highly doubt we would get Spies for starters, because he is the captain of the bulls. Plus, I would be unhappy if we signed him. Spies is a pretty average player, and we have enough 8s at Ulster. We don't need Spies, it would be a waste of a signing.

But we do need a signing at backrow and 10, whether NIQ or not. Whether they are high profile or not, we do need them. Squad depth is vital these days, if you want to compete in one competition never mind two at once.

Seriously Rory, Spies is not an average player. He is a top class international who plays for one of the top club sides in the world, The Bulls, and is an almost ever present in the SA national side. He isnt there for his personality.

While I agree with most that he isn't the best backrower in the world by any stretch, Ulster would still be more than lucky to get him, he would do a fantastic job for us and be a star in the Rabopro12. To think otherwise is a bit silly.

That said, we arent getting him!

People would be disappointed with Spies?? - wait till you see their reaction if we sign Nick Williams.

Artful_Dodger wrote:People would be disappointed with Spies?? - wait till you see their reaction if we sign Nick Williams.

This. So much this.

Either way, I'd be wary because we don;t need an 8 but Spies would bust through defences for fun in the Pro 12. There are a lot of teams in the league who are soft tacklers at times (sometimes we show a soft enough underbelly ourselves in the league) and someone like Spies would do to a lot of sides what Ferris did to the Scarlets this year.

You're 100% right Clive, but on the other hand... that site is dominated by idiots

I'll take Spies!

Rodders!! Me to

logie28 wrote:Seriously Rory, Spies is not an average player. He is a top class international who plays for one of the top club sides in the world, The Bulls, and is an almost ever present in the SA national side. He isnt there for his personality.

While I agree with most that he isn't the best backrower in the world by any stretch, Ulster would still be more than lucky to get him, he would do a fantastic job for us and be a star in the Rabopro12. To think otherwise is a bit silly.

That said, we arent getting him!

Not sure why anyone thinks he is better than average, regardless of who he plays for. His size and pace mean nothing when he doesn't do much with it. He is very highly overrated IMO. Many, many better 8s than him, even in South Africa. It would be a bit silly for Ulster to sign Spies when we have good depth at 8. We need a good 6/7 to add to the squad.

Rory I'm not sure what your definition of an average player is but it doesn't match mine anyways.....

What has Spies ever done of note? Apart from setting an impressive 100m time, and lifting weights. On the field he is usually anonymous.

I kinda know were you are coming from Rory. You could rate Spies alongside Haskell as players overrated due to their physical statue. You could make arguements that neither should be in their international teams.

BUT they are only over rated when described as 'world class'. If you view them in a normal context, for our purposes Ulster rugby, then I'd have both of them in my team in a heartbeat as they are clearly top quality at club level. Spies kept Wannenburg out of the bulls team for several seasons before he moved to us, he did so for a reason, he's a top top player.

(Although you could make an arguement he wouldnt be a good for us as Wannenburg due to their different styles, work ethic etc, but it doesn't deflect from Spies's ability)

So in terms of coming and going

1. Kyriacou out Annett up
2. Jerry Cronin out Macklin up
3. Barker out Henderson up?
4. Faloon out Birch up
5. Wannenburg out Wilson in
6. Porter out McIlroy up
7. Humphreys out Jackson up
8. McKinney out? NOC in?
9. Danielli retired Bowe in
10 Whitten out Marshall up?
11 Terblanche retired Payne returned

So just waiting on a NIQ backrower?
Any others?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3muAkT0K9Y

Overrated maybe, average definitely not......

rodders wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3muAkT0K9Y

Overrated maybe, average definitely not......

See, most of those clips feature him before the 2007 world cup, when he was very promising. He never lived up to it though.

i disagree rory i believe Spies would be a great signing, even though it wont happen. he is a solid player and you dont get springbok caps for nothing.

personally the back row i would want us to sign is Ryan Kankowski, i rate him highly, i think he has the ethic and work rate to fit in at ulster, but again this signing is very unlikely. i truly believe our back row signing will not be that spectacular, a rabbo quality player most likely.

I think people are missing what I was actually saying...

I dont care if Spies is fantastic or just quite good or average. I'm saying i don't want a star player. And I dont think the rest of you should be calling for one.

Replacing NIQ first teamers with other NIQ first teamers is NOT PROGRESS.

WE ARE NOT MAN CITY.

We need depth. yes. If we want a solid NIQ to play a handful of games. Fair play.

It will not be good for Ulster or Ireland if we get Spies or anyone in his league.

I would go as far as to say, if you are calling for someone like that at this stage in UR's progress, you may as well shoot UR in the foot.

Even if we beat Leinster in the HC, I for one will have the tiniest little niggle in the back of my head that it was 5 NIQs versus 3 NIQs (one a project).

Wilson for Wannenberg will make our HC team next year 4NIQs. That is progress. Trying to bring it back up to 5 IS NOT.

Trouble is we are very short in the backrow in terms of physical numbers.

1st choice - Ferris, Wilson, Henry
2nd choice - Henderson, Diack, Birch
3rd choice - Joyce, McCormish, ANother

Thats pretty thin on the ground bearing in mind the 1st string could all easily be missing because of call ups/injuries and the 3rd string contains a kid and a player not up to standard. We probably need a NIQ backrow to tide us over until more players develop and/or a southerner or two come north or grannies are unearthed for top players.

I do agree the point and the club are making strides to address. They hope and believe we will be in a position to not replace Afoa, we probably wont be allowed to anyway. Also in 2 years Payne will either go home or be IQ.
Expectation that Nelson would have developed a lot in the mean time

In truth if you asked Humphreys I think he would be happy in 2 years time to keep Pienaer and Muller and the rest of the squad would be IQ.
I would hope the IRFU would work with us and make that possible.

We are droping from 7 to 5 NIE anyway even with a new backrower.
Danielli, Terblanche and Wannenberg all leaving and as yet none have been replaced by NIE players.

On a side note McKinneys departure confirmed.
As with Cronin and Porter the plan is to get them back in 2 years time

Back up the truck clive...I am not calling for Spies, what I disagree with is that he is average or would be a bad signing.

He is certainly not top of the list but I wouldn't turn my nose up at him either.

One thing is clear from the last 2 seasons is that when Ferris is out we struggle for ball carriers and go forward ball and I suspect with Pedrie gone that will be even more the case next season.

Wilson and Henry are not great ball carriers and when Ferris is out that leaves Touhy and Afoa to get us going forward and using the likes of Trimble on the crash ball which is too obvious against strong defences.

Any backrower we sign needs to be a strong carrier and I am definitely against signing someone mediocre to warm the bench. That would certainly not be progress.

geoff998rugby wrote:Trouble is we are very short in the backrow in terms of physical numbers.

1st choice - Ferris, Wilson, Henry
2nd choice - Henderson, Diack, Birch
3rd choice - Joyce, McCormish, ANother

Thats pretty thin on the ground bearing in mind the 1st string could all easily be missing because of call ups/injuries and the 3rd string contains a kid and a player not up to standard. We probably need a NIQ backrow to tide us over until more players develop and/or a southerner or two come north or grannies are unearthed for top players.

I do agree the point and the club are making strides to address. They hope and believe we will be in a position to not replace Afoa, we probably wont be allowed to anyway. Also in 2 years Payne will either go home or be IQ.
Expectation that Nelson would have developed a lot in the mean time

In truth if you asked Humphreys I think he would be happy in 2 years time to keep Pienaer and Muller and the rest of the squad would be IQ.
I would hope the IRFU would work with us and make that possible.

We are droping from 7 to 5 NIE anyway even with a new backrower.
Danielli, Terblanche and Wannenberg all leaving and as yet none have been replaced by NIE players.

On a side note McKinneys departure confirmed.
As with Cronin and Porter the plan is to get them back in 2 years time

geoff, I'm curious about this strategy to let youngsters go and to hope that they want to come back in a couple of years' time. That sounds high risk to me as tbh there is every chance that they will make it work where they go and want to stay, or simply not make it work and therefore not be of a standard that Ulster would want to take back anyway. Am I missing something?

Yea Geoff, what I'm saying is, if we get a NIQ (and we will probably need to) I'd rather the slotted in in the 2nd choice row you mentioned. (and even then, I'd hope Henderson/birch give them a run for their money)

1st choice - Ferris, Wilson, Henry
2nd choice - Henderson, Diack, Birch <--- NIQ
3rd choice - Joyce, McCormish, ANother

I just hope people don't crack up if its not a spectacular name. Who exactly out of the second choice do we think isn't up to playing Pro 12???

ASBO I take your point but the problem we have is the AIB is not good enough to develop players. The English 2nd tier will help improve/develop these players. The belief/hope is that coming home, a higher salary and playing in the Pro12 as opposed to the English 2nd tier will be sufficient encouragement to persuade them.

Of course they could end up liking it and attract the eye of a Aviva team but to be honest these players will go backwards staying in the AIB

clivemcl wrote:Yea Geoff, what I'm saying is, if we get a NIQ (and we will probably need to) I'd rather the slotted in in the 2nd choice row you mentioned. (and even then, I'd hope Henderson/birch give them a run for their money)

1st choice - Ferris, Wilson, Henry
2nd choice - Henderson, Diack, Birch <--- NIQ
3rd choice - Joyce, McCormish, ANother

I just hope people don't crack up if its not a spectacular name. Who exactly out of the second choice do we think isn't up to playing Pro 12???

The 2nd tier is fine in terms of abilty, if a little inexperienced but you cant have too many backrowers - it has the highest attrition rate and add that to international call ups and Ferris' knee and the squad as is needs strengthening

We have played our get of jail free card in the last two years with Wannenberg and Henry hardly ever getting injured. That luck will not hold

geoff998rugby wrote:ASBO I take your point but the problem we have is the AIB is not good enough to develop players. The English 2nd tier will help improve/develop these players. The belief/hope is that coming home, a higher salary and playing in the Pro12 as opposed to the English 2nd tier will be sufficient encouragement to persuade them.

Of course they could end up liking it and attract the eye of a Aviva team but to be honest these players will go backwards staying in the AIB

Right, gotcha, makes sense now - so not a cast-iron guaranteed return, but hopefully a better option

The other thing is they go with Ulsters blessing, knowing the Province want them back and I guarantee Humphreys will be staying in close contact monitoring progress

geoff998rugby wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Yea Geoff, what I'm saying is, if we get a NIQ (and we will probably need to) I'd rather the slotted in in the 2nd choice row you mentioned. (and even then, I'd hope Henderson/birch give them a run for their money)

1st choice - Ferris, Wilson, Henry
2nd choice - Henderson, Diack, Birch <--- NIQ
3rd choice - Joyce, McCormish, ANother

I just hope people don't crack up if its not a spectacular name. Who exactly out of the second choice do we think isn't up to playing Pro 12???

The 2nd tier is fine in terms of abilty, if a little inexperienced but you cant have too many backrowers - it has the highest attrition rate and add that to international call ups and Ferris' knee and the squad as is needs strengthening

We have played our get of jail free card in the last two years with Wannenberg and Henry hardly ever getting injured. That luck will not hold

I'm not arguing with this Geoff. I just want a solid squad player. I believe Ferris, Wilson, Henry will be great, and that Henderson will have a big big season. Some people are going on like they want an NIQ of the calibre that will displace either Henry or Wilson. I think that would be a backward step for Ulster.

Agreed that back-row is the key area of need since at a minimum I expect Ferris and Henry to be involved in most Irish squads next season.

That leaves Diack at blindside, Wilson at 8 and Birch at openside by my reckoning. While that's probably decent enough to get the job done during international weekends, it's not good enough for HEC rugby should we suffer an injury or two in the backrow.

I don't understand why people are even wasting their time mentioning Spies or Kankowski..... NEVER going to happen.

My choice, if I had one, would be for someone like Onosa'i Auva'a. Played Super 15 rugby in Auckland and I think he's on a short term contract with Sale (not 100% sure though). A much more realistic option.

Good call UIK

I bit of stirring the pot re Brian McL

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0515/1224316128105.html

Interesting comments from Wallace in particular:

“I think they’ve made a mistake and they’re just going with it. I don’t think they realised that they were going to get this far ,” says Wallace.

“I was up there recently and they’re not particularly happy about it. They’d be happier and Brian could probably take it easier if it was a world-renowned coach coming in. That’s the issue.

“It’s someone with a middle of the road track record. They’re saying it’s grand if they’re bringing a Nick Mallett or someone like that. But this is a guy we don’t know. We know Brian and he’s done a hell of a job. It just doesn’t make sense.”

and also Humphreys old mate Howe:

“Also, McLaughlin’s handled himself very well and there’s a huge amount of affection for him as a person as well as a coach within Ulster Rugby. I think they (Ulster) would say themselves they would do it differently again.”

I can't help agreeing with those sentiments...that Humph and Logan have made a mistake but are too proud to back down.

I'd like to see maybe Brian being respected enough by UR and Anscombe to play a role in the first team. Assistant coach or something? I don't know how likely this would be.

I do not want to decry Brian McLaughlin any way because hhe has done a fantastic job

BUT

the reality is this success is as much to do with the central role that key players have played in the coaching of the team - McLaughlin has often been the guy at the back pulling the strings.

You cannot understimated the central role of Muller and has anybody noticed the improvement in our back play since Terblanche came on board.

From a coaching persepctive this has been very much a team effort

On the other hand, John Afoa says he believes we'll be a better team with Anscombe at the helm and he can bring us on as a side. I feel like the IT should have included his recent comments for balance. He's the only person I've seen talking about this who has worked under both coaches and he's in favour.

I think Stuart Barnes is very, very wrong when he says Humphreys should resign if this goes wrong. I do believe Humphreys is correct that we need a new coach and he's someone who has an astonishing track record in his job (until this call upon which the jury is still out) so he should be retained at all costs. If Anscombe fails, Humphreys will be instrumental in securing his successor. McLaughlin has been great, but we would never in a million years be where we are under McLaughlin if he didn't have Humphreys conducting his business in player recruitment and putting the structures to support high performance in place in the club.

geoff998rugby wrote:I do not want to decry Brian McLaughlin any way because hhe has done a fantastic job

BUT

the reality is this success is as much to do with the central role that key players have played in the coaching of the team - McLaughlin has often been the guy at the back pulling the strings.

You cannot understimated the central role of Muller and has anybody noticed the improvement in our back play since Terblanche came on board.

From a coaching persepctive this has been very much a team effort

Agreed. Looking at McLaughs in isolation without that input and it's not so cut and dry. I don't believe McLaughlin could go and succeed to the same extent elsewhere or that he could have succeeded without Muller et al. Thats not a snipe at the man; I have so much admiration for him but putting sentiment to one side, long term the Academy role suits him perfectly and is a massively important and difficult role to fill.

geoff998rugby wrote:
the reality is this success is as much to do with the central role that key players have played in the coaching of the team - McLaughlin has often been the guy at the back pulling the strings.

You cannot understimated the central role of Muller and has anybody noticed the improvement in our back play since Terblanche came on board.

From a coaching persepctive this has been very much a team effort

Thats how I would expect things to work Geoff, BM pulling the strings, as head coach, and Muller and Terblanche working with the backs and forwards repectively.

Coaching is a team effort and clearly the above combination was working very well so there is no reason to change it.

But Terblanche wont be here next year and Muller may only have 1 year if the IRFU put their foot down and there would we be

Thats not the point Geoff. The IRFU don't have a stipulation for coaches.

Were Terbalanche and Muller asked to stay as coaches?

Terblanche wants to go home I understand. It was only ever a short term contract inspite of wishes here that he would stay.

You would also have the issue of paying such high profile individuals very decent salaries as non playing personnel. The reality is Doak and Bell are cheap by comparison

Surely theres a hint of the players playing for McLaughlin too and wanting to send him out on a high so if he stayed would they have got to the final?

All ifs and buts though

rodders wrote:Thats not the point Geoff.

It very much is the point, unless I've missed something?

In a years time Muller and Terblanche won't be here so we'd want a succession plan in place this year, not next.

No Notch my point is that Ulster didn't try and keep our existing coaching team, Muller included.

The descision was made to replace them otherwise we wouldn't need a succession plan.

If our current coaching team can get us to the HEC final what do we need a new coaching set up for?

I don't think they could have though, not on their own. Take the coaching input of Muller, Afoa, Terblanche etc. out of the mix and take out Humphreys getting those guys in and doing his job well and we couldn't have done it, I think. Not that McLaughs, Doaky, Bell et al. don't deserve credit. It's been a great team effort from everybody in the organisation. I'm not trying to whitewash them from history I just think we rely on our senior players in more ways than one.

Muller is a guy who came here as a player, who has made plans in life to go back to South Africa and take on the family farm. Maybe he is open to staying longer; as a player, coach or both. I hope so. But when he came here he said he planned to stay for two years- three if it went well- and then retire from the game completely. Now plans change sometimes and he might reconsider. But it's not like we can bank on him past next year.

He has been give coaching responsibilities, which is telling. You say the coaching staff we have is fine. I say the fact players are doing a lot of the coaching is slightly concerning long term.

Also; all of our current coaches are on long term fixed contracts including McLaughlin.

When I say coaching team, I include Muller. He is forwards coach after all is he not.

There has been a whole team involved in getting us to where we are and that includes Humph, Mclaughlin, Muller, Doak and Bell but there seems to be an assumption that the latter 3 are the weak link and the former 2 are the driving force in getting us to the HEC final?

Humphreys is looking eerily like Rob Andrew at the RFU. He seems to take plenty of his share of credit but is beyond criticism when it comes to the flak.

Everyone conveniently forgets how poor Ulster were at the start of the season. McLaughlin was here and Muller/Pienaar/Terblanche weren't.

Compare that to say Leinster at the start of the season. Schmidt was there and his stars weren't.

Ulster lacked direction and shape and as a result lost matches. Add to that the continued trend under McL where Ulster win the first half and then lose the second. This is when the coaches are head to head in real time.

It's fine for Wallace to support McL but it was the players forced his hand over Jackson's selection and that wasn't the first time that's happened this season. Maybe McL is just too 'nice' to be a great coach.

Leinster were poor at the start of the season Aukster. Most teams were because of the RWC.

Based on what do you say the players forced McLaughlins hand regarding Jackson?

rodders, Muller being forwards coach kind of proves my point. McLaughlin is a specialist forwards coach. Why do we need one of the playing stuff to step up as a player/coach then?

Besides, I don't think Humphreys beyond criticism. So far he hasn't put a foot wrong is all. We can hardly assess the decision over coaching until the end of next season. It's important that we treat the new regime without bias and show some patience because it'll take about a year to see how things are going. I actually agree with Aukster on this. I think people are getting too invested in the emotion and sense of occasion that comes with the Heineken Cup final and not taking a long term view.

I was just thinking earlier 'this is so ironic'. When McLaughlin got the job I was one of his biggest defenders because people were writing him off out of hand and it was unfair. Now some of the same people (and I'm not necessarily referring to you rodders, some are posters from various other forums, journos and the old 606) are all 'McLaughin is brill, Humphreys out!"

He remains a quality coach and I maintain it's absolutely essential he keeps coaching with Ulster for our long term future. I just think we're going along at 80%, we're doing fine, and we can go up a few gears with some new input. In both cases I've tried to keep my emotions and sentiment out of it and look at whats best for Ulster. If you look at our general play, there IS room for improvement still. This team isn't at it's potential.

I don't want McLaughlin or Humphreys out. I want to see some stability and for us to build on the success we've achieved over the past few seasons.

We're clearly on an upward curve so I don't see why we need to change a winning formula which by almost everyones admission has seen us overachieve for the second season running.

If the academy is the weak link then we should be hiring a new coach for it not demoting McLaughlin and bringing a coach who has very little experience at this level.