Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

You did not imagine that - it was said. A few weeks ago too.

Of the backrowers out there geoff mentioned before about the sharks guys just in speculation but surely someone like Deysel who isnt necessarily first choice and could earn more without demanding massive money is possible.

i genuinely dont know what we are looking for but i agree with nick williams being out of the question. He just adds nothing to my mind. Like having another mccomish sadly.

Like I said clive; I'd rather they took their time and got quality rather than announced Nick Williams tomorrow. Time is ticking though.

I don't have any kind of insider info or anything but I hope that maybe someone will become available when the Super Rugby season ends or maybe when Mark Anscombe can use his knowledge of New Zealand rugby to identify someone with potential on the fringes of the Super Rugby sides and bring him in.

I would love to sign Muldoon rodders but I understand he's committed to staying with Connacht, which I admire him for.

No fingernails left Clive?

Ulster Rugby are so inconsiderate. They should have someone posting in this forum on a daily basis to keep us up to date

So how big can we go when looking to this new backrower? Deysel is a fantastic option, but is he too much of an ask?

I wonder if there will be any business between the provinces this summer? With Leamy and Wallace retiring, the cupboard at Munster is looking pretty bare. I was reading through another threat where a poster listed the outs and ins player wise and it doesn't make for good reading from a Munster point of view. I wonder if it is really good for Irish rugby to have Leinster jam packed with back rows when both us and to a greater extent Munster rate crying out for another forward. Would it be worth the IRFU forcing a deal whereby one of Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock or Dom Ryan move to Munster or Ulster to get more game time to not only strengthen that province but add more competition for Irish places?
Has anyone got any views on this? Would this be a solution?

After wallace announced his retirement i said munster would be short but got told about their 'depth' .

POM, DOC2, O'Donnell, Ronan, Coughlan.

All of the above are decent looking players but other than POM their arent any top notch ones there or rather they need to be developed. Its the same at ulster listing Birch and Henderson. All good prospects but have it all to prove.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: Would it be worth the IRFU forcing a deal whereby one of Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock or Dom Ryan move to Munster or Ulster to get more game time to not only strengthen that province but add more competition for Irish places?
Has anyone got any views on this? Would this be a solution?

Won't happen, all those guys have signed new contracts with Leinster.

The IRFU can't force players to go where they don't want to go (unfortunately... ).

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I wonder if there will be any business between the provinces this summer? With Leamy and Wallace retiring, the cupboard at Munster is looking pretty bare. I was reading through another threat where a poster listed the outs and ins player wise and it doesn't make for good reading from a Munster point of view. I wonder if it is really good for Irish rugby to have Leinster jam packed with back rows when both us and to a greater extent Munster rate crying out for another forward. Would it be worth the IRFU forcing a deal whereby one of Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock or Dom Ryan move to Munster or Ulster to get more game time to not only strengthen that province but add more competition for Irish places?
Has anyone got any views on this? Would this be a solution?

I would love that; but those guys have all had offers from the other provinces and turned them down unfortunately. Ruddock has turned down both Ulster and Munster to sign a new contract with Leinster, I understand various other backrowers have rebuffed us... it's sad that a good few of those guys will be playing some Pro12 and British and Irish Cup games whilst Ulster need to bring in an NIQ backrow to get regular gametime but what are the IRFU meant to do? Hold a gun to their heads and make them sign a contract for their rivals?

Rodders you are right, though 'persuade' might be a better word for me to have used. If you were especially Ruddock or Ryan where you may have a better chance of playing every week would you not fancy a move, especially if it pushed you towards the Irish side? And what good does it do Ireland if, for arguments sake Ulster and Munster bring in NIQ players when Leinster have their sued stacked with Irish players not getting enough game time? As both you and Notch say, you can't make players move. It seems really short sighted of them when they have Jennings, Heaslip, McLaughlin and O'Brien in front of them. It's the same with Fergus McFadden to an extent in that they aren't being exposed enough to high intensity matches at european level holding back their development.

I agree with you Stand, those Munster players all have potential for sure. I really feel like Munster are in for a really rough season next season. They will still do fine, but I can see a lot of inconsistent performances with these inexperienced players.

rodders wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: Would it be worth the IRFU forcing a deal whereby one of Kevin McLaughlin, Rhys Ruddock or Dom Ryan move to Munster or Ulster to get more game time to not only strengthen that province but add more competition for Irish places?
Has anyone got any views on this? Would this be a solution?

Won't happen, all those guys have signed new contracts with Leinster.

The IRFU can't force players to go where they don't want to go (unfortunately... ).

Maybe Logan needs to do a bit of lobbying and see about tax breaks up here to compete with Leinster and Munster

We have tried for both McLaughlin and Ruddock in the past - they both said no

Geoff, did McLaughlin initially agree and back out at the eleventh hour on the deal?

McLaughlin is cornerflag as well iirc?

Come on Ryan. Get the finger out!

Maybe Logan needs to do a bit of lobbying and see about tax breaks up here to compete with Leinster and Munster

In the middle of a recession with the Conservative austerity measures in place you want to lobby HMRC for a tax break on sports people? You wouldn't so much be laughed out as verbally abused, there's charities and small businesses desperately vying for the helping hand of the government at the minute.

The number of Irish players that move between Ulster, Leinster and Munster directly is pretty small. Why is that? Pride in the family heritage, the provinces loathe to aid a competitor or what?

formerly known as Sam wrote:
The number of Irish players that move between Ulster, Leinster and Munster directly is pretty small. Why is that? Pride in the family heritage, the provinces loathe to aid a competitor or what?

Go and have a read at the Irish tour squad thread and you'll find the answer to that one...

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Geoff, did McLaughlin initially agree and back out at the eleventh hour on the deal?

Not heard that I just knew we spoke to him and nothing materialized

Quite a few Ulster players have moved down south over the years. Though not many others seem to want to come up here and play..

rodders wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
The number of Irish players that move between Ulster, Leinster and Munster directly is pretty small. Why is that? Pride in the family heritage, the provinces loathe to aid a competitor or what?

Go and have a read at the Irish tour squad thread and you'll find the answer to that one...

True. That thread alone is turning me off completely from Irish rugby. When the fans don't even get behind the team as a whole..

Agreed Rory. Is there any other serious rugby nation that subjects their players to such vitriol? And then we wonder why some players don't play as well for Ireland as they do for their province.

Ulster have the same number of backrows as they had last season.
Birch, Joyce and Henderson all have had some exposure and it's all been positive. They are exactly the quality of cover player that Leinster have been bringing through.
Ulster were missing Ferris for extended periods this season, so that situation is unlikely to get much worse. He was in the running for ERC player of the year so there is some life left in him yet.
Tuohy and McComb have played backrow and the world didn't end.
Henry has grown into his role on openside and is now Test class.

If the starting HEC backrow is Ferris, Henry and Wilson, and the NIQ has to be of equivalent quality, then he only gets a start if one of them is injured. If none are injured and he plays in PRO12 games, then he is effectively blocking the promising backrows. Such a quality player would be an expensive insurance policy and a luxury that could be detrimental to Ulster's future.

I can just about see the argument for bringing in a Leo Auva'a quality player (except an openside), but other than some strange backrow fetish, why do Ulster need to sign another top quality backrow?

I think Diack will shine again next season. He was finishing this one well and would most likely have been on the bench on Saturday had he been fit.

I agree Rava, Diack at his best is better than Wilson. Maybe Anscombe is just the sort of coach to get the best out of him again?

I think there are only really one or two guys who continually play the them and us card on the Irish International threads. We know who they are......................

No, one of them is not me! How dare you!

Two guys!! One Province?? Eh, Fly?

It very much is likely to get much worse over the next two years though- he has a chronic knee condition, exacerbated by playing rugby- this summer he is playing three tests in New Zealand, next summer he is playing for the Lions most likely. I think we'll be lucky to get 3, 4 Pro12 games per season out of him and then it's just down to luck if he't fit for the Heineken Cup. He's one knock away from another layoff lasting several months.

That would leave us with two backrowers I'd be comfortable starting a Heineken Cup game. If we're lucky with Ferris we have three. The truth is we need four plus back-up. You're exactly right when you say we have the same number of backrows as this year signed up. Thats our problem. That's our biggest problem. Our backrow was a major factor in our underperformance in the Pro12. Not being able to bring on a backrow impact sub cost us away to Clermont and in the Final.

In terms of promising backrows, Ali Birch is an openside and hence exempt from this discussion. We're sorted there. Henry and Birch are our options.

6/8? Ferris and Wilson. Then Diack as a reserve 8. Then nothing. Thats five backrowers in total. Throw in Henderson and it's six. We need seven. Get a top NIQ blindside.

Then we have four top class backrowers fighting for the starting shirts and ACTUAL IMPACT from the bench.

I want a top two finish in the Pro12 next year. We patently need more strength in depth to achieve this.

If Ferris, Tuohy and Henry are away on international duty then we'll have the strength in depth to cope if we have a good blindside, and the younger Henderson and Faloon. There's one area where our strength in depth has been exposed all season and we need to address it.

Rava wrote:Two guys!! One Province?? Eh, Fly?

My lawyer told me not to answer that one, Rava. But I can give you a clue ....

that wink was the clue btw...

Got it Fly

Birch and Joyce are coming through but Henderson was picked in front of Joyce to come in at blindside despite playing lock for the u20's. Joyce and birch may well be decent options but they haven't all been positive. Joyce and birch did reasonably against Leinster but that has to be taken in context as well.

As notch says we are an injury away from Diack being in our HEC XV and despite some positive showings lately that is bloody worrying. After that we have guys that have a handful of pro 12 appearances between them. I have no issue giving birch and Joyce gametime and Henderson too (although I would prefer it at lock) but it has to come in the pro12 first.

There may well be ample opportunity with fez being used sparingly and Henry hopefully involved in green as aukster hinted at. There is plenty of scope for a high quality NIQ in the backrow to help bring some experience to the side though

I think Birch deserves more credit honestly Stand. When he played that game against Leinster, I was very impressed. I remember my dad asking who the 7 was because he was playing brilliantly. Since then he has shown glimpses of what he can do, and he made an excellent turnover in the Ospreys game (I think) but was very wrongly yellow carded for it. Also, the management must be pretty impressed if they think he is at least as good as Faloon.

One thing we can be sure of is that Wilson will have the most game time out of all the other backrow options, and will feature in both the HEC and Pro 12. Unless he gets a call-up for Ireland, which I don't think he will at this point.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:One thing we can be sure of is that Wilson will have the most game time out of all the other backrow options, and will feature in both the HEC and Pro 12. Unless he gets a call-up for Ireland, which I don't think he will at this point.

I would agree with you on that one young Rory. He will be the proverbial carthorse although that is how he was used for Saints.

That's not bad Rory but it is all in patches and cameos. Willie Faloon had a bloody brilliant 6 months when he first broke onto the scene 3 years ago and 3 years later we are shipping him off to Connacht.

Yes I recall birch was unlucky against Connacht but I also saw him almost butcher a score against the dragons by running away from tovey with the ball in the wrong hand so he couldn't fend.

These individual bits taken in isolation count for nothing. He has to influence a game over 50-80 minutes and while he was impressive against Leinster(I think everyone agreed) that game was like a run out. I do agree he needs more chances and with Henry elevating himself we need to be giving him those chances in the pro12. I would be very nervous if he was benching or starting a HEC game though.

I'm just not gettin carried away with promising young back rowers given that we lost pollock to injury and Faloon has fallen by the wayside within 3 seasons.

I realise that, but given the chance, maybe Birch could do the same in 6 months? I am trying to be optimistic about him for next season.

Stand - if you don't rate Birch then you must want an openside as an injury to Henry means Ali starting?

Plenty of Locks started in the backrow. Both Tuohy and McCombe started there as did Donnacha O'Callaghan and Leo Cullen. Ulster do have a number of players to cover for 6/8 but only have Birch to cover 7. Ferris was missing a lot this season, and Ulster coped. Henry was almost ever present with a marked drop in performance down to Faloon. Next season he may get injured or have Test committments, how will Ulster cope with only Birch?

If any backrow comes in it surely has to be an openside?

The thing is Aukster, we don't need a new 7 apparently. If Birch is rated as highly as Faloon by the management, then we lose nothing there. I am really hoping that Birch proves to be a real find, and I have a feeling that he will.

I have to say, I am really looking forward to next season.

We need a flanker, ideally someone who can cover both sides. They don't have to be world beaters but adaptable. The only backrow position I think we are well stocked in is 8. Where have I said I don't rate birch? I merely said that I would like to see him cut his teeth at pro12 level before we fire him into HEC games. Realistically given our current options we would more likely see Wilson move to 7 than birch coming into the heineken team although I do submit that we are at the mercy of the new coach.

Anscombe (according to Payne iirc) Is a specialist at the breakdown so if we combine that to birchs natural abilities then maybe he will prove to be a fantastic asset. We have to judge it on the games he will hopefully get at pro12. We will need to manage chris Henry more next season too.

My only point is that we need the NIQ signing to be of a high standard because if we are having to rely on the birch's and joyce's of the squad before we can get them proper pro12 gametime it could be dangerous for our HEC hopes.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Maybe Logan needs to do a bit of lobbying and see about tax breaks up here to compete with Leinster and Munster

In the middle of a recession with the Conservative austerity measures in place you want to lobby HMRC for a tax break on sports people? You wouldn't so much be laughed out as verbally abused, there's charities and small businesses desperately vying for the helping hand of the government at the minute.
The number of Irish players that move between Ulster, Leinster and Munster directly is pretty small. Why is that? Pride in the family heritage, the provinces loathe to aid a competitor or what?

Exactly the corporation tax is up for consideration right now so that businesses can grow so why not the same principle with sports. There are 2 professional teams in Northern Ireland and since Stormont are paying for Ravenhill to be redeveloped surely its in the best interests to help Ulster compete with Leinster and Munster fianancially

Heard a few whispers that NOC deal isn't done, and could well not be happening. Cue much older, and probably better, Irish outhalf lined up instead.
And it could be PJ has summer off.......

logie28 wrote:Heard a few whispers that NOC deal isn't done, and could well not be happening. Cue much older, and probably better, Irish outhalf lined up instead.
And it could be PJ has summer off.......

Jeremy Staunton then.

logie28 wrote:Heard a few whispers that NOC deal isn't done, and could well not be happening. Cue much older, and probably better, Irish outhalf lined up instead.
And it could be PJ has summer off.......

You mean no JWC?

Standulstermen wrote:We need a flanker, ideally someone who can cover both sides. They don't have to be world beaters but adaptable. The only backrow position I think we are well stocked in is 8. Where have I said I don't rate birch? I merely said that I would like to see him cut his teeth at pro12 level before we fire him into HEC games. Realistically given our current options we would more likely see Wilson move to 7 than birch coming into the heineken team although I do submit that we are at the mercy of the new coach.

Anscombe (according to Payne iirc) Is a specialist at the breakdown so if we combine that to birchs natural abilities then maybe he will prove to be a fantastic asset. We have to judge it on the games he will hopefully get at pro12. We will need to manage chris Henry more next season too.

My only point is that we need the NIQ signing to be of a high standard because if we are having to rely on the birch's and joyce's of the squad before we can get them proper pro12 gametime it could be dangerous for our HEC hopes.

Wilson isn't a seven, and AFAIK has never played there.

Apparently Diack is on a sizeable contract that Humphreys extended last year, so if he can't cover backrow then why did the Doc do this? Why do Ulster need another Diack level player?
Humphreys also recruited a budget backrower in McComish. If he can't be used then why is he still at Ulster? He must be blocking the young players more than most.
Maybe Ulster are looking for someone in-between of say Faloon ability and cost... someone like Faloon actually. Chris Henry could then cover the other backrow positions...

What I don't understand is how Ulster expect to get a Ferris quality player on a McComish sized budget?

logie28 wrote:Heard a few whispers that NOC deal isn't done, and could well not be happening. Cue much older, and probably better, Irish outhalf lined up instead.
And it could be PJ has summer off.......

Sanity prevails - faith in Humphreys restored!

Must emphasize everything I've heard is 2nd hand, all be it from a reliable source, but yes Notch. And it seems to be being considered MrsP

The Great Aukster wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:We need a flanker, ideally someone who can cover both sides. They don't have to be world beaters but adaptable. The only backrow position I think we are well stocked in is 8. Where have I said I don't rate birch? I merely said that I would like to see him cut his teeth at pro12 level before we fire him into HEC games. Realistically given our current options we would more likely see Wilson move to 7 than birch coming into the heineken team although I do submit that we are at the mercy of the new coach.

Anscombe (according to Payne iirc) Is a specialist at the breakdown so if we combine that to birchs natural abilities then maybe he will prove to be a fantastic asset. We have to judge it on the games he will hopefully get at pro12. We will need to manage chris Henry more next season too.

My only point is that we need the NIQ signing to be of a high standard because if we are having to rely on the birch's and joyce's of the squad before we can get them proper pro12 gametime it could be dangerous for our HEC hopes.

Wilson isn't a seven, and AFAIK has never played there.

Apparently Diack is on a sizeable contract that Humphreys extended last year, so if he can't cover backrow then why did the Doc do this? Why do Ulster need another Diack level player?
Humphreys also recruited a budget backrower in McComish. If he can't be used then why is he still at Ulster? He must be blocking the young players more than most.
Maybe Ulster are looking for someone in-between of say Faloon ability and cost... someone like Faloon actually. Chris Henry could then cover the other backrow positions...

What I don't understand is how Ulster expect to get a Ferris quality player on a McComish sized budget?

I actually think we need an NIQ of above Diacks quality. A Wannenburg quality truth be told although that will be well nigh impossible to get. If Diack steps up so much the better, he is IQ after all. Wilson has filled in at 7 for saints on occasion but it isn't his comfort zone. Didn't stop us playing ferris, Wannenburg and Diack in the HEC away to Biarritz in the past mind you. Like I say we are totally at the mercy of whatever way anscombe views the breakdown and his backrow makeup.
Do we know what budget ulster have? I certainly don't. I doubt we are after someone of faloons ability given that we have just let him go. I would say they are after someone (they view) far better.

I'd say we need someone roughly the same quality as Wannenburg to make progress. The idea person would have been... Wannenburg. If we sign an NIQ- he needs to be quality. The days of NIQs like Pfister and Dewey is gone at Ravenhill, it has to be. Geoffs post about why bother bringing in someone like Nick Williams is really encouraging. We need to get this one right.

The Great Aukster wrote:

logie28 wrote:Heard a few whispers that NOC deal isn't done, and could well not be happening. Cue much older, and probably better, Irish outhalf lined up instead.
And it could be PJ has summer off.......

Sanity prevails - faith in Humphreys restored!

If it's much older then could it be Davy Humps ?

Please let this be true. I mean no malice in this but if they do sign NOC I am going to be the first man to the border to start the construction of a wall. HE WILL NOT CROSS!!!!! (where's that Ian McKellen when you need him)

Ok folks, we need to come to an agreement. I thought 606v2 was designed for people who wanted to skive off at work.

I cant be doing this in the evenings. i have things to do and my wife would kill me.

Theres far too much reading to catch up on.

And if I had been here at the start I would have said "yea Hooky I've been asking that question for ages".

THE IRFU pay central contracts, so the idea of cash incentives shouldnt be too crazy. They believe in the process of IQ development to the point where they forbid NIQs in certain positions, yet they arnt willing to pro actively fill the gaps. Positions being filled by sub standard players doesnt actually help Ireland. Did Ireland benefit from ulster being forced to play humphries for 3/4 years? I think not.

The IRFU could do more.

Anyways, Diack, if he can come good in terms of work ethic, is valuable. He actually scored tries.

Also, I think if we get another backrower it has to be a serious ball carrier. Without Ferris we dont look as fierce.

Can we actually take good backrowers and develop top class backrowers with the current set of coaches?

Do we have faith in Anscombe to bring players on and improve their individual abilities?

No one knows clive. Any optimism I have regarding the backrow is that anscombe is (allegedly) an expert there