Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

You did not imagine that - it was said. A few weeks ago too.

Rava if Ulster signed you that would be an improvement full stop

I don't accept that Humphreys has been as bad as made out... if ROG for example had played as 'poorly' as Humph did he'd be nominated for IRFU player of the season.... oh wait he was! ......

Rava wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy with Ireland ? - my guess is the wingers will be Spence and Cochrane

Now we are getting delusional. With Earls, Kearney Jr and Zebo around that will be six! Can't see it, at best two of them will be in the squad.

Have to say in the Barbarians game, Gilroy looked superior to Zebo, who by Kidney is deemed to be superior to Kearney Jr. Earls is said to be demanding hes played at center.

If trimble gets back to the form pre world cup, Its not unlikely to assume Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy will get selected. On current from however, Trimble doesnt make the cut.

clivemcl wrote:
Have to say in the Barbarians game, Gilroy looked superior to Zebo, who by Kidney is deemed to be superior to Kearney Jr. Earls is said to be demanding hes played at center.

Comparing Zebo, Dave Kearney and Gliroy is a moot point as none are the finished article. If I had to back one player to finish of a try scoring move it would be Zebo hands down but Gilroy and Kearney are better defensively. Kearney has most vision and skill but Gilroy is an excellent finisher and is very elusive.

3 very exciting, but different talents so no need to compare them.

I don't think Earls is demanding anything, he has made it clear he wants to play at centre.

Rodders I cant agree re our backrow.

This year McCormish was 6th in the pecking order - next year he will be 8th

That is a significant improvement in depth

I agree Geoff that our depth is better but that is not so much due to the signings but on Birch and Henderson being a year older.

It remains to be seen if our starting backrow will be better. The contribution of Wannenburgs phenomenal work rate, subtle handling skills and sheer volume of appearances shouldn't be underestimated.

Everyone is going to have to work that bit harder to compensate.

I think Wilson gets a tick for all of those qualities though rodders. I don't think there is that big a drop in quality there. Plus if Diack continues to improve, Birch lives up to his potential and with the signing of Botes, I think we are looking much better there.

Rodders to be honest the reasons why our backrow will be stronger next year than this are pretty irrelevant imv - the fact is those two youngster will make a full contribution.

Sure we will miss Wannenberg but other players bring qualities where they are better than him.

Botes and Henderson has more pace, Wilson does a lot of what I would call the bread and butter roles of an 8 better than Wannenberg e.g. managing the base of the scrum.

Overall I think we are significantly stronger than last year.
If you accept Birch for Faloon

We have gained Wilson, Botes and Henderson for Wanneberg.
I cannot see how that can be viewed as anything other than a big step up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZFiykwihgs

His huge hand off on O'Mahony is the highlight for me!

geoff998rugby wrote:Rodders to be honest the reasons why our backrow will be stronger next year than this are pretty irrelevant imv - the fact is those two youngster will make a full contribution.

Well they are only relevent because the original question raised by Notch was whether the guys coming in are as good as the guys going out.... hence I haven't been considering Henderson and Birch.

But yes I am probably looking forward to seeing how Henderson in particular goes more than anyone else next season. He looks an incredible prospect.

Henderson and Birch were here last season and didn't impress the coaches enough to warrant much gametime. What I'm wondering is where they have been developing their rugby skills to become so much better in the interim? What they need and don't yet have is experience and until they do it is impossible to say whether either will be significantly better than Mike McComish let alone as good as Ferris.

The health of the Ulster backrow is largely dependent on the health of Ferris. If Ferris is fit then the overall strength of the backrow will be similar to this year, OTOH if he is injured it will be considerably weaker.

I can 99% guarantee that Henderson will become a big name in his career.

Henderson will definitely be better than McComish based on what I've seen. He has all the attributes and he's already putting them to good use. Of all our young players, he's one of the bankers.

You're right about Ferris, thats why its good we're strengthening there. Not long now until we find out what our final signings are.

The Great Aukster wrote:Henderson and Birch were here last season and didn't impress the coaches enough to warrant much gametime. What I'm wondering is where they have been developing their rugby skills to become so much better in the interim? .

A simple event has occurred they got older and are now ready in a way they weren't before.

By the logic above a 15 year with the right skill set should be selected

As Ferris being injured of course we would be weaker - that is true for last year and next.
The difference is we have 2 more players of the required standard to play in the back row next year compared to last.

Nobody knows if these players are ready for a level until they are tested at that level. They might be ready and they might not but there is no logic in saying that the passing of a few months makes a player ready. Birch is 23 so who decided that he wasn't ready until now while Henderson is now ready at 19? Do they ping like a microwave to let the coaches know?

It is rather more likely that the coaches decide when a player is ready by judging how they perform under pressure. If they're good enough then they're old enough and age really has nothing to do with that. Henderson and Birch have begun to be tested at a higher level and the signs are promising - nothing more.

Hendy has the talent though, and I reckon he has the physicality. He has seemed immensely strong in all age groups. Whether it has been at school level, U20s, or in his first game for Ulster, he has just looked so powerful. And he is getting stronger with age. There are some players that you look at and then you know they are a talent. Hendy is one of them IMO.

I noticed on the Ireland - NZ thread that Geoff seems to rate Macklin quite highly (and expects him to displace DF in the pecking order eventually)... Great news if he becomes a player of that calibre, however given that he has had very limited game time with Ulster, I'm wondering what this view is based on.

I pose this question out of genuine interest. I'm not querying the viewpoint.
Anyone else seen reason to believe Macklin could be our best TH post-Afoa?

Saw him playing in the flesh for the ravens a while back. He was just coming back from injury and had a distinctly average game. He is pretty highly rated by those in the know though.

RG - Some great juniors find life difficult at senior level - Rhys Ruddock, Andrew Conway, Paul Ryan, Cillian Willis, Chris Cochrane, Jamie Smith, David McGregor, Michael Allen etc.

I agree Henderson looks to have all the components as does Birch, but obviously the coaches don't think they're there yet - otherwise why bring in Botes at all?

BNI - Macklin's improvement in the scrum this season is because of an improved body position rather than increased bulk. Paddy Mac has increased his mass to the probable detriment of his loose game, but Macklin retains his backrow instinct and mobility in the loose. If he develops the stamina to scrummage longer he will be a contender.

Jamie Smith is a great example there TGA. He was unplayable at underage level and just never even got close to making the cut for Ulster.

It is a judgement of the coaching staff that this is the season for Birch and Henderson to make a breakthrough.

Macklin is considered an outstanding propspect but props tend to be slow burners.
I doubt he will really hit the heights till Afoa goes (2 years). Will be interesting if he continues to improve and goes in front of Fitzpatrick in the pecking order just as Fitzpatrick becomes a key component of the Irish set up.

Different players are ready at different stages in their career
Henry was 24
Cave was 22
McAllister was 21
George Ford at Leicester is 19

The club see what they see in training and decide when a player is ready - they believe Birch and Henderson are now ready

Jamie Smith had made the breakthrough - the reasons for his departure were not Rugby related

geoff998rugby wrote:It is a judgement of the coaching staff that this is the season for Birch and Henderson to make a breakthrough.

Macklin is considered an outstanding propspect but props tend to be slow burners.
I doubt he will really hit the heights till Afoa goes (2 years). Will be interesting if he continues to improve and goes in front of Fitzpatrick in the pecking order just as Fitzpatrick becomes a key component of the Irish set up.

Different players are ready at different stages in their career
Henry was 24
Cave was 22
McAllister was 21
George Ford at Leicester is 19

The club see what they see in training and decide when a player is ready - they believe Birch and Henderson are now ready

Jamie Smith had made the breakthrough - the reasons for his departure were not Rugby related

Out of interest Geoff, do you see any correlation between how early a player is ready and the roof of their talent. For example, do all the big stars tend to be noticeable earlier?

Who is the biggest name who was a late developer?

I would suggest there is a correlation, although given the meaning of the word correlation it is a guideline not an absolute.

Henry is an outstanding player for Ulster but in truth just short of regular international standard.
I think it will be the same with Birch.
Cave is a very good player capable of playing International rugby but his lack of pace will means he will not be a 50 cap man.

Henderson on the other hand could go all the way.
BOD made the breakthrough very early.

Whilst I think Irelands future is bright at 10 with Madigan/Jackson and Hanrahan make no mistake George Ford is better than them all. His hands are unbeleivable for a 19 year old. I predict he will be the NH's best 10 this decade. If he avoids injury and conducts himself correctly the world is at his feet.

geoff998rugby wrote:Jamie Smith had made the breakthrough - the reasons for his departure were not Rugby related

Smith's size is against him at senior level, but it was his attitude let him down. A player has to be just as ready mentally as physically (John Andress and Neil Best spring to mind).

The coaches have obviously deemed that Henderson and Birch are ready to be tested at a higher level, but there is no way they will know how they come out the other side. Paddy Jackson has been tested at a high level and came out the other side bruised but intact. Everyone knows he has the ability but it's only by showing how he coped with his HEC experience that he instills confidence he is mentally mature enough to face that test regularly and learn from it.

I don't think there is too much correllation to be honest..I mean D'arcy was 23 when he stepped up to the plate, Bowe was 25 before he was genuinely top international class, even O'Gara played his best rugby post 27 imo.

Neil Best broke through pretty late didn't he? John Hayes, Mike Ross, Donnacha Ryan...there's are loads of examples of players who came good later in their careers.

I actually think Willie Falloon will suprise a lot of people, he has the talent to be top, top class and if he can get his head right he could have a great career yet.

rodders wrote:I don't think there is too much correllation to be honest..I mean D'arcy was 23 when he stepped up to the plate, Bowe was 25 before he was genuinely top international class, even O'Gara played his best rugby post 27 imo.

Neil Best broke through pretty late didn't he? John Hayes, Mike Ross, Donnacha Ryan...there's are loads of examples of players who came good later in their careers.

I actually think Willie Falloon will suprise a lot of people, he has the talent to be top, top class and if he can get his head right he could have a great career yet.

Right Rodders, spill it, whats your relationship with Falloon?

Rodders your dates are not comparing like with like. I was referring to the age they broke through into their Provincial sides

Bowe was 20
Gordon D'Arcy was very young - he played his first game for Ireland at 19 !
There were issues off the field but he made the breakthrough as a teenager.
O'Gara was 22 - although he played games a couple of years before that.
(fly halfs like props will tend to be later due to the nature of the position)
Ryan was ready at 23 Munster choose not to pick - important difference

As for Hayes and Ross dare I say they were not as good as their international appearances suggest and actually their status says more about the woeful state of Irish TH quality than it does about them as players

So I would maintain a correlation does exist

The Great Aukster wrote: Smith's size is against him at senior level, but it was his attitude let him down. A player has to be just as ready mentally as physically (John Andress and Neil Best spring to mind).

Agreed. The importance difference is Andress was a bit of a big head and a bit wild and was not prepared to keep his mouth shut when more senior players were not delivering. He spoke his mind and made himself unpopular. Much of what he said was the truth though he just went about it the wrong way.
However he has mellowed with age and works hard at his game. I doubt anyone here knows it but he was offered a Super 12 (as it then was) contract but turned it down. I suspect he now regrets that.
Also the reason he did not get into the Exeter side this year was not rugby related and it was the club that was at fault imv.

Best on the other hand was a big head with no redeeming features and has been a total bumhole for many years

Yes Geoff they may have broke through early but my point is that they developed at different rates and showed massive improvements relatively far into their careers.

For example Bowe certainly didn't look international standard when he came on the scene...I remember Sivavatu running rings around him, certainly didn't look like a future lions wing.

From 2007/2008 onwards he was a different player.

Players improve, plateau and even go backwards...my point is you can't really predict how good a player will become based on how early they break through. It's just an educated guess.... the biggest predictor for me is a players attitude, if they have the appetite to learn and improve then they most likely will.

We will have to disagree I think the truly top players make the breakthrough early. Progress can be uneven but if they have what it takes they make their Provincial side early e.g Bowe, BOD, Healy, Ford.

If they dont make it till they are 24+ (front row and 10's aside) in truth it is probably because they are shy of true international standard

Surely the age with which they make their provincial side is in large part due to the strength of that side, in the position that they play? Injuries can hold players back as well.

Hickie is another guy who wasn't international standard until his mid- late 20's, David Wallace another.

You simply cannot write a player off as substandard because he hasn't made the grade by 24...everyone is different.

Hickie and Wallace were about 21 when they made their provincial sides.

I thiNk making the International side is too open to variation due to 1/2 positions for you to make it in and you may be unlucky re competiton.

Ignoring Front row and 10 which top internationals did not break into their provincial set up like Henry till after their 24th Birthday.

Very very few.

As I said it is a correlation not an absolute.

geoff998rugby wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote: Smith's size is against him at senior level, but it was his attitude let him down. A player has to be just as ready mentally as physically (John Andress and Neil Best spring to mind).

Agreed. The importance difference is Andress was a bit of a big head and a bit wild and was not prepared to keep his mouth shut when more senior players were not delivering. He spoke his mind and made himself unpopular. Much of what he said was the truth though he just went about it the wrong way.
However he has mellowed with age and works hard at his game. I doubt anyone here knows it but he was offered a Super 12 (as it then was) contract but turned it down. I suspect he now regrets that.
Also the reason he did not get into the Exeter side this year was not rugby related and it was the club that was at fault imv.

Best on the other hand was a big head with no redeeming features and has been a total bumhole for many years

Pls share, geoff?

Essentially when he went there it was quiet clear that players who had come up from Div 1 were preferred with respect to selection over those coming in/returning.

Now don't get me wrong this is not a criticism of Exeter as rewarding loyaly is to be comended and I think the togetherness that brings has been a source of strength for them.
However it does mean that a new player has bigger hurdles to climb to make the side. I understand he just felt that he would have more game time at Worcester not because he was up against better players but because this extra barrier wasn't there.
As a returning player this may have been even more apparant - it does seem that he feels he didn't fit in anymore.

geoff998rugby wrote:Essentially when he went there it was quiet clear that players who had come up from Div 1 were preferred with respect to selection over those coming in/returning.

Now don't get me wrong this is not a criticism of Exeter as rewarding loyaly is to be comended and I think the togetherness that brings has been a source of strength for them.
However it does mean that a new player has bigger hurdles to climb to make the side. I understand he just felt that he would have more game time at Worcester not because he was up against better players but because this extra barrier wasn't there.
As a returning player this may have been even more apparant - it does seem that he feels he didn't fit in anymore.

It is/was? Not sure what you base that on? I'm afraid you are completely wrong on this one - first choice has oscillated between Hoani Tui (ex NZ Maori) and Craig Mitchell (ex-Ospreys and Wales) - Andress was 3rd choice strictly on merit. I'm afraid your "returning" player point doesn't even make sense - if they were going to be ignored and not played regardless of ability, then there would be no point in recruiting these players whatseoever. Quite possibly he didn't feel that he fitted in anymore - he left an ambitious championship club as a good player and returned to a strong premiership outfit as an ok player (pretty much mirrors the Quins experience too)

Not sure I get your drift to be honest.
The perception was that some new players were not part of the inner circle.

if they were going to be ignored and not played regardless of ability, then there would be no point in recruiting these players whatseoever

This takes my observation way beyond what I actually said

geoff998rugby wrote:Not sure I get your drift to be honest.
The perception was that some new players were not part of the inner circle.

if they were going to be ignored and not played regardless of ability, then there would be no point in recruiting these players whatseoever

This takes my observation way beyond what I actually said

geoff, are you for real?! We spoke about this earlier in the season when I indicated to you that Jon Andress was 3rd choice tighthead - despite that he got some decent game time, as injuries took their toll on Tui, Mitchell and the two senior looseheads (Sturgess and Moon), necessitating Tui (and Budgen) covering loosehead, so promoting Andress up the line.

Whose "perception" is this that you are talking about? Yours? Jon Andress's? Not exactly surprising if it's the latter, I can't imagine he returned to Exe wanting to be 3rd choice! Interestingly tho, of the established players that have been brought to the club post promotion, Andress is one of very few that have not established themselves in the core group of senior players and been moved on.

i just think you should be careful here - there are some impressionable followers of your club on here that seem to treat what you say as gospel, and this looks to me like a made-up story to justify Jon Andress not being kept on at Exe

I stopped taking Geoff at his word when he fell for the Henson thing. Sorry Geoff.

Ah come on now lads .....

Rodders you throw about pints on this forum like nobody's business I can't wait to see if you're this generous in real life.

WillyGilly wrote:Rodders you throw about pints on this forum like nobody's business I can't wait to see if you're this generous in real life.

Don't hold your breath



Ah, go easy on Geoff. He may occasionally exaggerate the extent of his knowledge, but at least he tries to find things out if he can. He's our very own Ulster

It's like any kind of speculation. We all know that everything you read on a forum needs to be taken with a healthy pinch of salt but we all enjoy the craic of speculating about incoming signings etc. It's not to be taken too seriously- sometimes it's right, sometimes its not. Either way we enjoy talking about it so why not continue?

I'm much more liberal with my virtual wallet Willy....

Ah come on now lads, show Geoff a bit of respect, be fair ... question the post and not the poster.....

P.S. Willy are you saying we aren't signing Gavin Henson! ...

For what it is worth is John Andress's perception. HE felt on the edge of the squad.

He may be deluded but he was there and that is his belief.

Yes it comes from a third party but a third party who is a very good friend of his.

Your last paragraph is out of order - why don't you just come out of it and call me a liar

It is this sort of nonsense that drove me away from the the supporters site. I do get insights - sometimes they are wrong but often they are right.

I really cant be bothered with someone questioning my integrity.
I might even get a bit more work done if I leave.

There is already one Irish poster who is an obtuse pain in the arse - its not worth it to be honest.

WillyGilly wrote:I stopped taking Geoff at his word when he fell for the Henson thing. Sorry Geoff.

I can be guilty of gulability. I am a straight down the line guy and dont get involved with wind ups and the like - never been my thing.

It was well presented though and of course showed up the fact am clueless about twitter

Come on Geoff don't take it personal man, don't leave we'd miss you on the Ulster and Ireland threads

Ah come on Geoff, we enjoy chatting about who might be in or out at Ulster with you.

The bitching about Geoff today has been pretty pathetic to be honest. Seemed to start in the pub. Stag stirring the pot again it looks like.

Where does this talk of Geoff leaving come from?? I don't really bother with the pub so must have missed it and to be honest this sort of reminds me why I never really bothered with the pub.

Geoff,

I'm pretty sure that Asbo was merely disagreeing with your assessment rather than trying to question your integrity.

And anyway he's Scottish you know so....



He even wears a skirt. I know, I've seen it!

As we have seen from the recent post match celebrations of his National Rugby team, those folks up there can send out fairly mixed messages.

Who knew a "Glasgow Kiss" really was a sign of affection?

geoff999rugby wrote: For what it is worth is John Andress's perception. HE felt on the edge of the squad.

He may be deluded but he was there and that is his belief.

Yes it comes from a third party but a third party who is a very good friend of his.

Your last paragraph is out of order - why don't you just come out of it and call me a liar

It is this sort of nonsense that drove me away from the the supporters site. I do get insights - sometimes they are wrong but often they are right.

I really cant be bothered with someone questioning my integrity.
I might even get a bit more work done if I leave.

There is already one Irish poster who is an obtuse pain in the arse - its not worth it to be honest.

geoff, if I wanted to call you a liar, I'd happily come out with it strait - it's like biltong always says, the guide on this forum should be that you should only say things to someone that you'd say to their face in a pub. So park your high horse over there, I merely suggested you tread carefully cos it's clear to everyone that lots of people on this thread treat your words with a certain reverence, so when you surmise or quote a friend of JA as this is what's going on at Exeter, well you couldn't be further from the mark as far as I am aware (first hand versus second hand) and I'd not be happy to have others misled as to what's happening at Exe. That is all, nothing more to be said