Scotland squad for SH tour

First topic message reminder :

Backs - Ansbro, Blair, Brown, Cusiter, De Luca, Evans,Grove, Hogg, Laidlaw, S Lamont, Scott, Visser and Weir.

Forwards - Barclay, Cross, Ford(c), Grant, Gray, Hall, Harley,Kellock, S Lawson, Murray, Rennie, Ryder, Strokosch, Vernon and Welsh

RDW, Barnes kneed (accidentally) O'Connor in the back, that is how he lacerated his kidney.

Ooft that doesn't sound good!

Sounds similar to what happened to Chris Patterson against Wales on that day that will haunt us all forever more.

I've always wondered how someone can split their kidney from an impact injury...

I think Barnes had a Shiv on him at the time.

Right, that's Beale, Horwill and O'Connor now announced as being ineligible for the Scotland match.

What a dilemma for Deans. Surely he has to play his Quadeness against Scotland to get him match fit but similarly, would you risk losing the only clear 10 you now have prior to a test series against the current European champions?

Am I the only one here that rates Barnes as the number one stand off available for Australia just now?

I know he's played at 12 a lot but he's definitely a top class 10 too.

He doesn't seem to have much choice.

The conundrum he faces is that the Reds have a bye this weekend, and Cooper has only played one match last weekend since his injury in November, so if he wants Cooper to have any kind of match fitness come the wales series, he has to play him.

From scottishrugbyblog.co.uk:

Scotland Looking To Hit Ground (And Australia) Running

by Rory Baldwin at 1.01pm

A week from today Andy Robinson will announce his first squad of the 2012 Summer Tour, to face Australia in Newcastle on the 5th June. It won’t be a full strength Australia side due to the fact that there is still Super 15 rugby ongoing and the real powder will be kept dry for the test series against Wales, despite the usual lip service being paid to Scotland. You can still bet there will be some talented footballers in the team that is eventually picked though.

Lining up against them will be a Scotland team without a defence coach – new man Matt Taylor is still coaching many of the Reds who will be harvested to play Scotland and will not join the tour till later, if at all – and an attack coach they have worked with for a week at the most.

So they’ll have to hit the ground running, and things will strangely enough (going by world rankings) probably get tougher on tour as we move on from Aussie B to full strength South Sea Island teams in their own back yard.

First up though it’s the pesky Aussies. Tim Visser won’t play as he only become eligible on the 12th, so who else might make the team?

For the first time in recent memory there is an actual choice at loosehead, and neither of those choices is Chunk. Welsh may well have the edge as the most recent holder of the shirt but it could well come down to who is training the best. Grant started the Rabo semi, so in terms of club form he could be the man. The hooker will be Ford who must be expected to lead and start, but any hiccups in form could be punished as sometime match assassin Scott Lawson has had a fine season in the cherry and white of Gloucester. At tighthead it could well be Euan Murray but Cross has done little wrong for Scotland and puts in a lot more work in the loose. Particularly as this tour is not taking in any of the scrummaging heartlands of the rugby world.

The second row will most likely be Gray and Kellock, but Ryder has performed well enough to suggest a bench spot. That, and the lack of other options unless Harley is adopted into the boilerhouse.

With the likelihood of a youthful back division Robinson may want the experience in his pack so probably Kellock; probably also Strokosch at the expense of Harley, this time out anyway and only just. Rennie should start at 7, but the big question in the back row with Denton absent is at Number 8. Vernon is the only real number 8 there, and the hard pitches will suit his pace but Robinson is an undoubted fan of Barclay and the grunt he adds, and he may feel John can fit in there if required. Vernon is also a versatile bench weapon and could prove especially useful in the later tests where fitness may play more of a role.

To be honest I wouldn’t have a problem with Barclay at 8 or Harley at 6; I think all the players we have can do a job especially those who have a point to prove and plenty of challengers for their place in the squad let alone their shirt.

In the backline things get tricky indeed, with the need for experience butting up against the vigour of youth. There’s also something to be said for providing a hastily prepared Aussie team with a few unknown elements running at them.

Hogg at fullback and a midfield pairing of Scott and Ansbro would be great although I suspect Robinson may go for something a little more conservative such as Grove/Ansbro or Grove/Nick De Luca. Joe Ansbro’s back injury before the Six Nations should not be underestimated as his power and pace were missed, and it started off all the backline shuffling of Evans and Lamont (and probably delayed first caps for Scott and Hogg in the process). Still, with finally plenty of decent centres on tour we are unlikely to see Lamont in the midfield and I think I he should be given a chance to defend his shirt against the hulking Dutchman lurking in the wings. His optimum position may well be coming off the bench angry though where he would have more of an impact than Evans, but there may be a need for a bit of heft in the back three somewhere. Interesting to see what influence Scott Johnson may have on selection, when Robbo’s instinct may be to go for Hogg/Evans/Lamont.

On the other wing it is tricky but Brown has the pace to cause Australia trouble – him and Hogg at full tilt would be something to behold, and almost interchangeable. Flexibility, pace and heads-up rugby are important against Australia, and that’s why Laidlaw and Blair would be my starters – they’ve been doing that all season. Weir on the bench allows you a different option tactically if you need to close up a game, and you could even shift Greig to 9 rather than bringing on Cusiter.

Rory’s Potential Scotland XV to face Australia: Hogg, Brown, Ansbro, Scott, Lamont, Laidlaw, Blair; Welsh, Ford (capt), Cross, Gray, Kellock, Strokosch, Rennie, Vernon
Replacements: Grant, Lawson, Ryder, Barclay, Cusiter, Weir, Evans

And just to be contrary, here is a squad that might be more along the lines of what we will see picked:

More Likely Scotland XV to face Australia: Hogg, Evans, De Luca, Grove, Lamont, Laidlaw, Blair; Welsh, Ford (capt), Murray, Gray, Kellock, Strokosch, Rennie, Barclay
Replacements: Cross, Lawson, Ryder, Vernon, Cusiter, Weir, Ansbro

The team announcement is tentatively scheduled for next Saturday (2nd).

Rory Baldwin thinks that John Barclay adds "grunt" at number 8. Hmmmm.

Otherwise it's a pretty well thought through piece setting out the options. I disagree that Robinson will ignore Matt Scott at 12 though. I think he'll pick him.

He is on record saying that he'll pick Scott at 12, so would be surprised if he didn't! Actually, It wouldn't....

Is anyone concerned that Robinson has been head coach, attack coach and defence coach all on his own recently?

I think Scott Johnson has joined him now though, and I suppose I doubt he'd have different systems on place from what they did in the 6N.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Is anyone concerned that Robinson has been head coach, attack coach and defence coach all on his own recently?

On the one hand terrifying, on the other at least it means he'll have no-one else to blame and fire should it all go wrong.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think Scott Johnson has joined him now though, and I suppose I doubt he'd have different systems on place from what they did in the 6N.

Are you suggesting that Scotland, the team with the most passes and line breaks of all time ever, need new "systems"?? Surely not.

I suspect Scott Johnson's first day training with Scotland will be like a scene from Police Academy. Don't take anything for granted Scott.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Rory Baldwin thinks that John Barclay adds "grunt" at number 8. Hmmmm.

Otherwise it's a pretty well thought through piece setting out the options. I disagree that Robinson will ignore Matt Scott at 12 though. I think he'll pick him.

Arguably, relative to Vernon he does!

Someone in the squad Tweeted a picture of Vernon's legs just before taking off for Aus - they looked as skinny as mine!

You'd have thought a pro rugby player would at least manage to put some muscle on their legs.

He's fairly well buit up top but as I said - very skinny legs!

As for Barclay - I don't believe the stats they say about him....he's definitely not as big as the stats say IMO.

"[Sean Lamont's] optimum position may well be coming off the bench angry"

Agreed. That, and giving post-menopausal women in the crowd hot flushes.

123456789 wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Spare a thought, at least the rugby team isn't as bad as the football team.

Scotland generally are just a total joke at team sports. When it comes to sports that are more an activity or leisurely pursuit than an actual sport, e.g. curling, cycling, golf, snooker and tennis, we aren't so bad.

In the grand scheme of things in Rugby we're very good we are 12th out of 96 and we have better players than Samoa, Tonga and Italy and aren't far off England, Ireland and Argentina as well as that on our day we can beat anyone on the planet except possibly the All Blacks. It is only because we play the top teams so often that there's a perception of us being bad. We are streets ahead of Tonga and Georgia yet because of the Rugby attitude of respect and the fact we are close to the bottom of our tier and they're near the top of theirs it appears they're close to us.

Are you on crack?! If we played full-strength dross teams, e.g. Canada, Georgia and Romania, on a regular basis, we'd probably lose to them as well. I also dispute that we have better players than the teams you mention when Samoa and Tonga contribute significantly to the All Blacks as well as producing for themselves the likes of EFS, Pisi, Tuilagi,Tonga'huia etc. This is the kind of horrific enthusiasm for mediocrity that fuels Scottish underachievement in sport.

Who cares if we're a small country? We invented golf and have some of the oldest football (Association and Rugby) establishments in the world. There has to be more to it than us allegedly punching above our weight during the 20th Century.

I think there's two distinct points to make here:

1. Where are we vis a vis other rugby playing nations?

2. Are we currently maximising our resources?

On the first question we should be judged on results, and not what we deem our potential to be. Results demonstrate that we are bottom of the pile in the 6 Nations, clearly behind the SH big three, behind Argentina, probably on a par with the south sea island sides and slightly ahead of Romania, Georgia, US and Canada.

On the second, and considerably more important question, for me the answer is clearly no. Selections for the past 4 years have been muddled at best, with zero forward thinking as to the core of the team going forward and any form of identifiable style of play. The players performing week in week out get roundly ignored in favour of myopic same old picks.

Whether we can improve on 1 very much depends on whether we can improve on 2, as well as taking into account improvements that other nations are making.

The most sensible thing Andy Robinson has said since becoming coach is that this is a results business, and sides get judged on results. No point in listing out your talented players against other nations and declaring a draw on paper, when in reality you have just lost 7 out of 7. If it becomes 10 out of 10, then 1 gets adjusted to reflect the fact that we've been overtaken by the islanders and are now in the group of teams with Georgia, Romania, USA and Canada. Perhaps Ander Monroe was shrewd to choose Canada over Scotland......

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think there's two distinct points to make here:

1. Where are we vis a vis other rugby playing nations?

2. Are we currently maximising our resources?

On the first question we should be judged on results, and not what we deem our potential to be. Results demonstrate that we are bottom of the pile in the 6 Nations, clearly behind the SH big three, behind Argentina, probably on a par with the south sea island sides and slightly ahead of Romania, Georgia, US and Canada.

On the second, and considerably more important question, for me the answer is clearly no. Selections for the past 4 years have been muddled at best, with zero forward thinking as to the core of the team going forward and any form of identifiable style of play. The players performing week in week out get roundly ignored in favour of myopic same old picks.

Whether we can improve on 1 very much depends on whether we can improve on 2, as well as taking into account improvements that other nations are making.

The most sensible thing Andy Robinson has said since becoming coach is that this is a results business, and sides get judged on results. No point in listing out your talented players against other nations and declaring a draw on paper, when in reality you have just lost 7 out of 7. If it becomes 10 out of 10, then 1 gets adjusted to reflect the fact that we've been overtaken by the islanders and are now in the group of teams with Georgia, Romania, USA and Canada. Perhaps Ander Monroe was shrewd to choose Canada over Scotland......

But apparently not coaches?

Come on ASBO, how can you possibly hold a head coach accountable for his teams performances. That is insane. It's not his fault Scotland don't win rugby matches. It was Graham Steadman's fault, and now it's Gregor Townsend's fault. This time next year it's going to be Scott Johnson's fault, followed by Matt Taylor.

The head coach can't do everything for heaven's sake!

knocking on, throwing fwd passes, kicking the ball out on the full, etc............ are not the fault of the head coach or attack coach to be honest!

In general these players don't do these things for their clubs. When will people realise it's as much about psychology as it is talent, and that the head coach is absolutely responsible for.

Drifting off topic for a second there will be no McKibben any time soon. He’s signed a 2 year contract with the Tahs.

Whilst he would have been a good addition, scrum half currently isn't an issue for us. Not hugely bothered.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think there's two distinct points to make here:

1. Where are we vis a vis other rugby playing nations?

2. Are we currently maximising our resources?

On the first question we should be judged on results, and not what we deem our potential to be. Results demonstrate that we are bottom of the pile in the 6 Nations, clearly behind the SH big three, behind Argentina, probably on a par with the south sea island sides and slightly ahead of Romania, Georgia, US and Canada.

On the second, and considerably more important question, for me the answer is clearly no. Selections for the past 4 years have been muddled at best, with zero forward thinking as to the core of the team going forward and any form of identifiable style of play. The players performing week in week out get roundly ignored in favour of myopic same old picks.

Whether we can improve on 1 very much depends on whether we can improve on 2, as well as taking into account improvements that other nations are making.

The most sensible thing Andy Robinson has said since becoming coach is that this is a results business, and sides get judged on results. No point in listing out your talented players against other nations and declaring a draw on paper, when in reality you have just lost 7 out of 7. If it becomes 10 out of 10, then 1 gets adjusted to reflect the fact that we've been overtaken by the islanders and are now in the group of teams with Georgia, Romania, USA and Canada. Perhaps Ander Monroe was shrewd to choose Canada over Scotland......

Pragmatism and Felix Unger-ness as usual, FES. I agree with this.

I think what mystifies me most as a Scotland fan is the fact that when you consider our players as a club unit, the general skill levels are perfectly satisfactory and occasionally excellent. When in a Scotland shirt, skill and concentration levels drop 10-15% whereas with players from the other home nations, this does not happen. This 10-15% difference is easily the difference between winning and losing at test level and that is what we have done.

It's the same problem as Ireland, really. Except we have a relatively less polished club product and Andy 'do you want to be in my gang' Robinson as a selector and so our problems are much, much worse.

I wonder whether Johnson will start to affect selection in the backline. I hope he does. Robinson is clearly a good forwards coach, although I wish to sheet he'd stop picking a wiry, gangling openside specialist as our 8.

To be fair on Robbo, the only reason he's picked Vernon at 8 is because Denton and Brown are injured and Beattie is still massively off-form.

Captain_Sensible wrote:To be fair on Robbo, the only reason he's picked Vernon at 8 is because Denton and Brown are injured and Beattie is still massively off-form.

... and Wilson is injured too, altho McInally was simply overlooked

I thought McInally was just getting back from injury wasn't he?

Yeah I don't think he's played much since the Toulouse game, and don't know if he's fit.

On a side note, good to see Chunky Weir out in the pishing rain practicing his kicks at the end of a training session while everyone else had gone in - great to see a training attitude like that from a young guy. Explains why he doesn't miss very much too I suppose!

Where did you see that RDW?

Article on the SRU website

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/2867/2/

Just realised that with Castres in the semis of the Top14 this weekend Max Evans is extremely unlikely to be available for the Australia match. Assuming Castres lost against Toulose and he hopped on a plane on Sunday he wouldnt arrive down under until the day before the match.
That probably means that Ansbro will be on the right wing and Lamont on the left with Hogg at FB. Scott and NDL will presumably be the centre pairing.

Sounds about right. Throw Tom Brown on the bench and I'd be happy with that!

Cheers RDW and I think you're right Sensiball. And I'm not unhappy with that decision, as it may mean Brown makes the bench.

Captain_Sensible wrote:To be fair on Robbo, the only reason he's picked Vernon at 8 is because Denton and Brown are injured and Beattie is still massively off-form.

I think he was referring to Barclay as the specialist openside at 8 rather than Vernon.

With the injury to Denton to decision to go with Vernon makes good sense. The conditions will suit him, he's an experienced number 8 relatively speaking and the alternatives fell short. McInally may feel aggreived, but time is on his side, and I can understand Robinson wanting a more experienced option (and hardly less talented) given the other debut appearances that we'll have on this tour.

sensisball wrote:Just realised that with Castres in the semis of the Top14 this weekend Max Evans is extremely unlikely to be available for the Australia match. Assuming Castres lost against Toulose and he hopped on a plane on Sunday he wouldnt arrive down under until the day before the match.
That probably means that Ansbro will be on the right wing and Lamont on the left with Hogg at FB. Scott and NDL will presumably be the centre pairing.

Makes sense.

Backs versus Australia:

9.Blair 10.Laidlaw 11.S Lamont 12.Scott 13.NDL 14.Ansbro 15.Hogg

20.Cusiter 21.Weir 22.Brown

Decent actually.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:To be fair on Robbo, the only reason he's picked Vernon at 8 is because Denton and Brown are injured and Beattie is still massively off-form.

I think he was referring to Barclay as the specialist openside at 8 rather than Vernon.

With the injury to Denton to decision to go with Vernon makes good sense. The conditions will suit him, he's an experienced number 8 relatively speaking and the alternatives fell short. McInally may feel aggreived, but time is on his side, and I can understand Robinson wanting a more experienced option (and hardly less talented) given the other debut appearances that we'll have on this tour.

Surely your passion for selecting on the basis of 'form' hasn't been thrown out the window, fES?!

Vernon has been poor for Sale in a poor Sale team pretty much all season

I disagree. When he's started he's played some decent stuff, and scored a couple of good tries this season.

McInally has had a mixed season. Storming against LI in the HC earlier in the season, hardly used towards the end of the season and anonymous on other occasions.

Nothing in it.

Vernon played pretty well at the World Cup. Perhaps this is an example of an "inverse De Luca". Robinson picking regardless of club form, and going with someone who has proven he can deliver at international level.

Thought you'd be pleased

funnyExiledScot wrote:I disagree. When he's started he's played some decent stuff, and scored a couple of good tries this season.

McInally has had a mixed season. Storming against LI in the HC earlier in the season, hardly used towards the end of the season and anonymous on other occasions.

Nothing in it.

Vernon played pretty well at the World Cup. Perhaps this is an example of an "inverse De Luca". Robinson picking regardless of club form, and going with someone who has proven he can deliver at international level.
Thought you'd be pleased

I must have been asleep for those matches - jeez, things happen so quickly nowadays, blink and you miss World Class Vernons!

If our back-up SH is Cusiter, I presume he will only be brought on to run the clock down given the time he takes to clear the ball from a ruck. I thought he had announced his immediate retirement when it came out that the IRB were going to stop SH's fannying around at the back of a ruck with the ball at his feet

InjuredYetAgain wrote:If our back-up SH is Cusiter, I presume he will only be brought on to run the clock down given the time he takes to clear the ball from a ruck. I thought he had announced his immediate retirement when it came out that the IRB were going to stop SH's fannying around at the back of a ruck with the ball at his feet

Thing is if cusiter retires, then Pyrgos is probably next in line for a call up and hes even slower.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I disagree. When he's started he's played some decent stuff, and scored a couple of good tries this season.

McInally has had a mixed season. Storming against LI in the HC earlier in the season, hardly used towards the end of the season and anonymous on other occasions.

Nothing in it.

Vernon played pretty well at the World Cup. Perhaps this is an example of an "inverse De Luca". Robinson picking regardless of club form, and going with someone who has proven he can deliver at international level.
Thought you'd be pleased

I must have been asleep for those matches - jeez, things happen so quickly nowadays, blink and you miss World Class Vernons!

He did sort of save our bacon against Romania. Sort of.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I disagree. When he's started he's played some decent stuff, and scored a couple of good tries this season.

McInally has had a mixed season. Storming against LI in the HC earlier in the season, hardly used towards the end of the season and anonymous on other occasions.

Nothing in it.

Vernon played pretty well at the World Cup. Perhaps this is an example of an "inverse De Luca". Robinson picking regardless of club form, and going with someone who has proven he can deliver at international level.
Thought you'd be pleased

I must have been asleep for those matches - jeez, things happen so quickly nowadays, blink and you miss World Class Vernons!

He did sort of save our bacon against Romania. Sort of.

And he was the link man for Lee Jones' Six Nations try.

Poor Vernie. Says a lot about the modern game that at 6'4" and 16 stones we're worried that he's a bit of a lightweight.

Imperialbigdave wrote:

InjuredYetAgain wrote:If our back-up SH is Cusiter, I presume he will only be brought on to run the clock down given the time he takes to clear the ball from a ruck. I thought he had announced his immediate retirement when it came out that the IRB were going to stop SH's fannying around at the back of a ruck with the ball at his feet

Thing is if cusiter retires, then Pyrgos is probably next in line for a call up and hes even slower.

Aarrgghhh, no IBD, don't let it happen!

George Carlin wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I disagree. When he's started he's played some decent stuff, and scored a couple of good tries this season.

McInally has had a mixed season. Storming against LI in the HC earlier in the season, hardly used towards the end of the season and anonymous on other occasions.

Nothing in it.

Vernon played pretty well at the World Cup. Perhaps this is an example of an "inverse De Luca". Robinson picking regardless of club form, and going with someone who has proven he can deliver at international level.
Thought you'd be pleased

I must have been asleep for those matches - jeez, things happen so quickly nowadays, blink and you miss World Class Vernons!

He did sort of save our bacon against Romania. Sort of.

And he was the link man for Lee Jones' Six Nations try.

Poor Vernie. Says a lot about the modern game that at 6'4" and 16 stones we're worried that he's a bit of a lightweight.

McInally is injured hence why he didn't play towards the end of the season, can't remember if it was the Toulouse game or game after he was injured. The injury isn't too serious but needed him to rest up.

I just saw that 2 further players have joined up with the Scotland Squad in Australia, Glasgow centre Alex Dunbar and Edinburgh back-rower Stuart McInally.

Not sure about the reason for Dunbar's call up but it says McInally's call up is as precautionary cover for John Barclay as he injured his hand in training.

Although, I am glad that Dunbar got the call.

I think Dunbar's in to cover the Max Evans situation. It seems he's in Oz anyway. Good news IMO

http://www.scottishrugby.org/content/view/2874/2/

Good news all round I think! Don't see them getting any game time but will be good experience for them.

nickj wrote:I think Dunbar's in to cover the Max Evans situation. It seems he's in Oz anyway. Good news IMO

Yeh I get it now.

Even if they don't get to play it will be a good experience for both of them as I expect that they'll both be wearing the Scotland jersey in years to come

alexgmacdonald wrote:I just saw that 2 further players have joined up with the Scotland Squad in Australia, Glasgow centre Alex Dunbar and Edinburgh back-rower Stuart McInally.

Not sure about the reason for Dunbar's call up but it says McInally's call up is as precautionary cover for John Barclay as he injured his hand in training.

Although, I am glad that Dunbar got the call.

Great news, could have made cases for the pair of them originally

On Vernon I agree that he's actually been very good when playing for Scotland. What I've especially noticed is when we're pish he still gets us go forward and makes line breaks. His defence seems sound too - not sure why everybody is complaining, I'm happy to have him at 8.

The fact that no matter what happens we cannot mention a backs line up with Morrison in it, has just made this entire tour so sweet for me. Because Evans nor Visser can play in AUS it also almost certainly confirms Lamont at 11.

Anyone want to discuss Laidlaw? Is he going to played at stand off again next season for Edinburgh? Do you think he can make it as an international 10? Unfortunately he's been run over a couple of times, which we really cannot afford in the 10 channel for another 10 years. Plus he doesn't kick territory enough for my liking at international level. Although I'd rather this than kicking too much, for sure. With the upcoming SH situation I really wouldn't mind him being groomed back for the 9 role and bringing up Weir/Jackson at 10. I for one also rate Jackson in a similar way to Vernon - his international performances despite club record have been solid enough; it's the 12/13 channel that hasn't helped.

Who would play at 10 for Edinburgh if not Laidlaw by the way?