Scotland squad for SH tour

First topic message reminder :

Backs - Ansbro, Blair, Brown, Cusiter, De Luca, Evans,Grove, Hogg, Laidlaw, S Lamont, Scott, Visser and Weir.

Forwards - Barclay, Cross, Ford(c), Grant, Gray, Hall, Harley,Kellock, S Lawson, Murray, Rennie, Ryder, Strokosch, Vernon and Welsh

A big fat NO to Sean Lamont at 13. Not with NDL, Ansbro and Grove in the squad, all better players in that position.

Lamont must only play on the wing on this tour. We're covered for 13 and if Scott gets injured Dunbar should be called up.

Morgannwg

Welcome to the Scottish haven...........

IMHO thats a good line up but not many will agree with Sean in the centre.

Whilst Schlong has played well at centre both for us and for the Scarlets, he does hold onto the ball (thinks like a winger) personally I think he gets undue criticsm he was one of our best players in the WC but time will tell there

I think he looks good at centre. And he brings some bulk to the midfield. NDL has had one good game at 13 and that was against France.

If he learnt how to pass he'd be a very good 13! The opposition knows he'll never pass though so they just concentrate on bringing him down.

Well at the Scarlets he had been switching between 13 and the wing; at this time he wasn't scoring many tries but was setting up a lot of them! He's been a very solid and dependable player. I rate him as one of Scotlands best backs.

Yep Lamont is crap. At least Dunbar won't be tainted by the Bath Clown's useless tactics now. Sack the loser !

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Yep Lamont is crap. At least Dunbar won't be tainted by the Bath Clown's useless tactics now. Sack the loser !

Finally! We've missed your rants!

Isn't Lamont moving to Glasgow?

Morgannwg
Agree with you on many respects under Nigel Davies he does distribute the ball almost instinctively, saying that he has either North outside or Jon Davies on the inside either player makes good use of his pass

The one aspect of NDL or Ansbro with Scott is I can'tee them defending the midfield like Lamont does, and that where the Aussies will concentrate, Laidlaw is nothing special in defence either.

So we have a quandry.............. defence and stodge v attack and adventure, the concensus is we have lost enough even tho at times it has been valiantly unlucky.

So now lets rock and roll with NDL/Ansbro and Scott

Ah fhf, I suppose that puts it into perspective and you do know a lot more on Scottish rugby than I do . Haven't seen much of Scott but he seems to be highly rated and has looked good in the few times I have watched him play. Hope you can use McVisser to good affect too.

NDL is an excellent defender in the 13 channel, and Grove is possibly even better. I personally think Lamont is a worse defender in the 13 channel that those two. Being a "bigger" tackler and putting in the headline hits is not the same as keeping the defensive shape and making sure you nail your man each and every time. I'd say that Lamont is far more likely to charge out of the line to make some hollywood tackle than NDL or Grove, both of whom I'd back every time to take down their designated man.

I'm sorry, but Sean Lamont is the 4th best 13 in that 28 man squad.

He should play on the wing, and carry off the wing as much as possible. When Visser is eligible, I can't see Lamont making the 1st XV. I do rate him, but he just doesn't fit into the style of play we should be aspiring to unless he's on the wing. At centre his distribution skills are not good enough given the alternatives we now have.

FES
agree with all your comments about Schlong. We now have much better options for 12 or 13 and we simply cannot go back to playing him in the centres, even for a single game.
One point no one has mentioned is that whilst Visser is a try scoring machine at club level he can also be a bit suspect in defence, particulalrly if he has to turn to get the ball or tackle.
I am not convinced that he will brush aside the challenge of Schlong for the 11 shirt as easily as most think.
It should certainly be interesting to see how the flying dutchman (I mean Scotsman) fares on this tour.

funnyExiledScot wrote:NDL is an excellent defender in the 13 channel, and Grove is possibly even better. I personally think Lamont is a worse defender in the 13 channel that those two. Being a "bigger" tackler and putting in the headline hits is not the same as keeping the defensive shape and making sure you nail your man each and every time. I'd say that Lamont is far more likely to charge out of the line to make some hollywood tackle than NDL or Grove, both of whom I'd back every time to take down their designated man.

I'm sorry, but Sean Lamont is the 4th best 13 in that 28 man squad.

He should play on the wing, and carry off the wing as much as possible. When Visser is eligible, I can't see Lamont making the 1st XV. I do rate him, but he just doesn't fit into the style of play we should be aspiring to unless he's on the wing. At centre his distribution skills are not good enough given the alternatives we now have.

FES
Understand what you are saying but dont agree and we both see NDL most weeks, Grove might be a tad better than NDL but both have definite times of lacking concentration, and if you viewed the 2010 series and the WC then Sean was the only back that consistently played well defensively. NDL certainly cranked it up this season and yes I can see him in the side and not Lamont when Tim is released on the rugby world

Am I the only one who thinks Nick de Luca should be shot into the centre of the Sun? I don't care how well or poorly he plays at Edinburgh, he's been playing international rugby for four years and he still doesn't look anywhere near good enough. The stupid lapses in concentration and discipline are as prevalent now as they were in 2008.

As for Lamont in the centres, I don't think that ever needed to happen. Robinson could have picked someone like Houston or Rennie (Bryan) when Morrison was crocked in the 2011 Six Nations but he moved de Luca to inside centre. Inevitably, that didn't work so he brought Lamont in which offered next to nothing going forward. Robinson really doesn't have much to lose by taking Dunbar and Scott as inside centres. It's not unlikely that we will lose to Samoa which could cost Robinson his job and will result in us knowing that much less about whether Dunbar is ready for Scotland. We also seem to be forgetting that Scott was fairly mince in his brief appearance against Ireland.

Young Rugby player in difficult international debut shocker!

Whats your point? Are we supposed to chuck him on the discarded pile because of a dropped pass?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/andy-robinson-seizes-chance-to-freshen-his-pool-1-2299428

Interesting interview with Robinson - he has openly said that Rennie and Laidlaw (at 10) are definite starters and that matt Scott is his number one 12.

Good to hear!

The full text from the Hootsmon:

Andy Robinson seizes chance to freshen his pool

CALLING up five uncapped players, Scotland coach Andy Robinson made clear his intention to continue to try new blends in an effort to uncover a successful Scotland team.

Robinson has rarely named the same side for two Test matches in a row since he took over from Frank Hadden in 2009. He has been hampered, like any coach, by injuries and again his plans for the forthcoming Tests with Australia, Fiji and Samoa have been hit by the withdrawal of David Denton, Kelly Brown and Lee Jones through injury, as well as lock Jim Hamilton, who received a seven-week ban for fighting in his last league match with Gloucester.

Others like Glasgow flanker Chris Fusaro and Grant Gilchrist, the Edinburgh lock, are youngsters firmly in Robinson’s sights for a step-up to the Test arena sooner rather than later after their excellent form this season.

But explaining why he opted for the 28 he has, Robinson revealed he felt in some cases players would be better off resting at home in May and then attacking pre-season with their full might.

“It was going to be a squad of 32,” he said, “but unfortunately we lost the Waratahs game and in discussions with the ARU they weren’t able to give us another game worthy of the standard we wanted, so we went with a 28-man squad. So, we were then looking at players who would be in the Test matches and be given the opportunity to play. So, take someone like Chris Fusaro. He has done really well, but I didn’t envisage him playing in the same side as Ross Rennie. Ross is the starting seven [openside flanker] because he did well in the Six Nations, and that’s an example of the kind of balance I had to look at.

“The other part for Chris, and guys like Grant Gilchrist, is that they’ve had a long season. They have played very well. Grant also went to New Zealand last summer [Macphail Scholarship], and their strength and conditioning is huge this summer, so if we took them away there would be a knock-on effect for next year. It’s their second season next year and you know the effects sometimes of a second season. But they will be challenging in the autumn for spots.”

Ruaridh Jackson was in the initial squad, he added, but when the cut was made to 28 the Glasgow stand-off was another to be dropped, largely because Greig Laidlaw and Duncan Weir, who were both left out of the World Cup squad, have usurped him as the form No 10s this season.

“Ruaridh was my No 1 after the World Cup,” Robinson said, “but Greig Laidlaw has really developed into a ten and played well for Scotland. Greig is going to start and then it was looking at who would back him up. This is giving Duncan an opportunity. He has something different, so this gives us the opportunity to change our game out there.”

Seeking to continue with a captain who is guaranteed his place, he has stuck with Ross Ford despite the hooker receiving flak for Scotland’s wooden spoon display in the recent RBS Six Nations Championship. But Robinson spoke of him being part of a leadership group that also included Al Kellock, Laidlaw, Chris Cusiter and Mike Blair.

Glasgow centre Graeme Morrison is an experienced figure left out as Robinson looks to reshape his attack and particularly the midfield area. There are recalls to the international arena for Alex Grove and Joe Ansbro. Ansbro has been out of the picture this year due to injury but Grove has not featured, ironically, since moving to Edinburgh on loan two years ago in an attempt to cement his place in the Scotland set-up.

He failed to impress Edinburgh coach Rob Moffat and struggled for game-time, before being handed back to Worcester at the end of a brief loan spell. Robinson has been impressed by his improvement since then and after a good performance in the Scotland A team’s 35-0 win over England Saxons in Galashiels in February, he is back in the running for a new midfield with Edinburgh youngster Matt Scott starting the tour as the first choice at inside centre.

“Alex [Grove] has perhaps been a bit under the radar but he’s performed consistently well for Worcester this year,” said Robinson. “When he played in the three Test matches he played he did well for us, so this is showing to him that the work he has put in to make the improvements he’s made has been recognised. As for Matt, I’m looking for him to start in that [inside centre] position.”

He added: “You have 12 players in there that either made their first starts in the Six Nations or are uncapped, which shows you how the squad is evolving. We have also lost Danielli, Simon Webster and Thom Evans in the last three years in terms of wingers and have Lee Jones injured, so suddenly there’s a dearth of wingers there and so we’re using the experience we have.”

Robinson said that the regulations had been checked and that Tim Visser was eligible to train with the squad before qualifying for Scotland on 12 June and that, while Max Evans will play for Castres this week in the Top 14 “Barrage”, as they seek a place in the semi-finals, if Castres win the French club will release him this weekend under the IRB regulation nine ruling. One other new addition to the squad will be Australian coach Scott Johnson, and Robinson hopes he will help arrest a seven-game losing run.

“He [Johnson] is a great person to talk to; his knowledge of the game is superb and I’m looking forward to him bringing his approach to the players. I think they will thrive on his vision of the game and the way he coaches. It’s a good opportunity for us all to generate confidence, and that real team spirit, which touring can do for you, to really lead us on to the autumn.”

Cryptoyourisan wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Nick de Luca should be shot into the centre of the Sun? I don't care how well or poorly he plays at Edinburgh, he's been playing international rugby for four years and he still doesn't look anywhere near good enough.

With can't pass / won't pass at inside centre? We could have Conrad Smith or BoD at 13 and still look rubbish with Morrison and Lamont at 12.

There's 2 issues with De Luca - 1, is he good enough, I would say yes, and he'll prove it with a 12 like Scott giving him the ball in space (although that doesn't necessarily mean he'd be my first choice). And 2, the lapses in concentration and discipline, this is more of am issue to me, the two yellow cards he received in the 6 nations were for unbelievably stupid offences, one right in front of the ref after the team had just been warned. He absolutely must stop that right now if he's to have any international future, but i would give him this tour to show what he can do with a decent 12.

I agree his penalties / Yellows were stupid, but if we scrapped every Scottish player who has lapses in discipline Wagga and Hamilton would never get a game.

Everyone always remembers NDL's sin bin against Wales but forgets Mr Glass AKA Rory Lamont's equally stupid penalty in the same game.

No Shingler ?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I agree his penalties / Yellows were stupid, but if we scrapped every Scottish player who has lapses in discipline Wagga and Hamilton would never get a game.

Everyone always remembers NDL's sin bin against Wales but forgets Mr Glass AKA Rory Lamont's equally stupid penalty in the same game.

Not entirely true, Radge, cos nobody is debating RLamont's inclusion in anything - nobody is suggesting he gets selected

I'd keep Evans out the team TBH. Nowhere near good enough form and Lamont on the wing means making good yards. I'd give him the nod on the wing for Australia.

Blair
Laidlaw
Scott
NDL
Ansboro
Lamont
Hogg

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cryptoyourisan wrote:Am I the only one who thinks Nick de Luca should be shot into the centre of the Sun? I don't care how well or poorly he plays at Edinburgh, he's been playing international rugby for four years and he still doesn't look anywhere near good enough.

With can't pass / won't pass at inside centre? We could have Conrad Smith or BoD at 13 and still look rubbish with Morrison and Lamont at 12.

People made the same point about de Luca when Parks was playing at 10. I really don't think it has as much to do with the players around de Luca as it does de Luca himself. Lamont and Morrison haven't been forcing de Luca to make cynical decisions (e.g. All Blacks game in 2008) or pass the ball to people's knees.

It is last chance salloon for him. He deserves a chance with his Edinburgh team mates around him. If he fails to deliver on this tour then he goes.

Agree completely - for the first time in a while we have some viable alternatives at 13, in Dunbar, Hogg, Bennett (long term) and possibly Dougie Fife.

I've been a big fan of De Luca, but as you say, if he can't perform on the international stage with his Edinburgh teammates around him, how exactly is he going to improve from there?

It has to be said, however, that De Luca will have a major role in unlocking Visser's potential. The way that Big Tim links up so well with Laidlaw and De Luca is a big reason for his success. If De Luca is instrumental in making Visser play well, then the team kicks on from there, then I'll excuse the occasional brain fart.

Why didn't we castigate Hines, Hamilton and Scott Murray for their sendings off? Because they played well when they were on the pitch.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:It is last chance salloon for him. He deserves a chance with his Edinburgh team mates around him. If he fails to deliver on this tour then he goes.

I'm glad you see it that way but, in my opinion, he's already had more than a few drinks on the house at that establishment. He did make a couple of quality breaks in the warm-up games prior to the RWC, albeit against Ireland A and Italy. Add to that a break against the mighty Canada to put Ben Cairns in for a try, a try against Italy that even I could have scored and a turnover against the French this year and I'm at a loss to think of anything good he's done in a Scotland shirt.

"But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads..."

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/andy-robinson-seizes-chance-to-freshen-his-pool-1-2299428

Interesting interview with Robinson - he has openly said that Rennie and Laidlaw (at 10) are definite starters and that matt Scott is his number one 12.

Good to hear!

It's actually an encouraging interview. Sounds like he's actually put some thought into this squad, and I'll forgive the omission of Gilchrist for the reasons given. Gives him a chance to work on strength and conditioning this summer, and it's noted he'll be competing for a slot in the Autumn. Similarly I'm pleased that Chris Fusaro gets a mention. He's another on red hot form at the moment and it's great we now have three quality opensides to choose from.

Very pleased he's recognised finally, arguably 5 games late, that Matt Scott is the future at 12. Hopefully he'll get all three games to settle in.

As for the NDL discussion, I'm with Radge on this. Let's give him a shot with the rights players around him. Visser has openly stated that he attributed his high try tally with having NDL playing 13. It would be stupid to ignore a highly successful club combination.

I also note that those against NDL are making the usual mistake of ignoring the alternatives when condemning him. Who else should be at 13? Ansbro wasn't an option in the 6 Nations due to injury, and Grove's form has only really picked up towards the end of the season. More a steady eddie. As for Bryan Rennie, not even ASBO, Mr Exeter, was advocating Rennie play in the 6 Nations. NDL has been superb this year for Edinburgh, unquestionnably. It's right he have the 13 jersey fat the start of this tour. As Radge says, last chance saloon, and there'll be no more excuses available. With Ansbro and Grove in the squad, I suspect there'll be some rotation in that jersey. May the best player ultimately win.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/andy-robinson-seizes-chance-to-freshen-his-pool-1-2299428

Interesting interview with Robinson - he has openly said that Rennie and Laidlaw (at 10) are definite starters and that matt Scott is his number one 12.

Good to hear!

It's actually an encouraging interview. Sounds like he's actually put some thought into this squad, and I'll forgive the omission of Gilchrist for the reasons given. Gives him a chance to work on strength and conditioning this summer, and it's noted he'll be competing for a slot in the Autumn. Similarly I'm pleased that Chris Fusaro gets a mention. He's another on red hot form at the moment and it's great we now have three quality opensides to choose from.

Very pleased he's recognised finally, arguably 5 games late, that Matt Scott is the future at 12. Hopefully he'll get all three games to settle in.

As for the NDL discussion, I'm with Radge on this. Let's give him a shot with the rights players around him. Visser has openly stated that he attributed his high try tally with having NDL playing 13. It would be stupid to ignore a highly successful club combination.

I also note that those against NDL are making the usual mistake of ignoring the alternatives when condemning him. Who else should be at 13? Ansbro wasn't an option in the 6 Nations due to injury, and Grove's form has only really picked up towards the end of the season. More a steady eddie. As for Bryan Rennie, not even ASBO, Mr Exeter, was advocating Rennie play in the 6 Nations. NDL has been superb this year for Edinburgh, unquestionnably. It's right he have the 13 jersey fat the start of this tour. As Radge says, last chance saloon, and there'll be no more excuses available. With Ansbro and Grove in the squad, I suspect there'll be some rotation in that jersey. May the best player ultimately win.

I think Grove's been fairly consistent all year, fES, in fairness to the lad, whereas Bryan Rennie's form only really picked up after Christmas when Rob Baxter gave his backs encouragement to attack each game rather than the usual stodgy AP serving

Exactly my point ASBO. All well and good hurling rocks at NDL, but until an alternative throws his hand up in the air and comes close to NDL's club form then I'd say his inclusion is fair play.

There are certainly players in the squad considerably luckier than NDL to be included.

Euan Murray, Dougie Hall, John Barclay and Richie Vernon in particular, probably Sean Lamont as well, and perhaps Max Evans.

Had Lee Jones and Dave Denton not been injured, I can't see how Vernon and Lamont could have been included.

We can talk about NDL all we like, but of the 28 I see his inclusion as pretty uncontroversial.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly my point ASBO. All well and good hurling rocks at NDL, but until an alternative throws his hand up in the air and comes close to NDL's club form then I'd say his inclusion is fair play.

There are certainly players in the squad considerably luckier than NDL to be included.

Euan Murray, Dougie Hall, John Barclay and Richie Vernon in particular, probably Sean Lamont as well, and perhaps Max Evans.

Had Lee Jones and Dave Denton not been injured, I can't see how Vernon and Lamont could have been included.

We can talk about NDL all we like, but of the 28 I see his inclusion as pretty uncontroversial.

But I don't think anyone doubts his form at club level, there's simply a question mark over his ability to replicate it at international level and a view on whether we can cope with his YC brain farts when the pressure seems to get to him at thus level

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Exactly my point ASBO. All well and good hurling rocks at NDL, but until an alternative throws his hand up in the air and comes close to NDL's club form then I'd say his inclusion is fair play.

There are certainly players in the squad considerably luckier than NDL to be included.

Euan Murray, Dougie Hall, John Barclay and Richie Vernon in particular, probably Sean Lamont as well, and perhaps Max Evans.

Had Lee Jones and Dave Denton not been injured, I can't see how Vernon and Lamont could have been included.

We can talk about NDL all we like, but of the 28 I see his inclusion as pretty uncontroversial.

But I don't think anyone doubts his form at club level, there's simply a question mark over his ability to replicate it at international level and a view on whether we can cope with his YC brain farts when the pressure seems to get to him at thus level

Have you ever tried playing 13 outside a 12 who won't pass? It is the single most frustrating thing on a rugby pitch; with a player like Ansbro behind him as well as Cairns (when he's fit), Evans, Bennett (eventually), Grove and others, not that any of the above are "world class" but they're all of a similar standard, add that to the frustration and the desire to do something for your country then you have a disastrous mix. It leads you to do stupid things and, maybe he is an idiot who can't cope with international rugby, but I would like to find out by seeing him inside Visser and outside Scott and Laidlaw internationally although a player who can only play with certain players is pretty limited and useless. At the same time I think Ansbro and Lamont work well as a centre combination or they certainly did at the latter end of last year's six nations. As for Graeme Morrison he filled a position we struggled in and never let us down but attacking wise he wasn't good enough, I think it should be the end for him now internationally. There should be a number of players on their last chance this year:

Jacobsen, Hall, Lawson, Murray, Kellock, Strockosh, Vernon, Cusiter, the Lamonts and Max Evans as well as possibly more - for a group who promised so much two years ago they delivered very little I think it's time we went down the Wales route. If only we got Gatland ...

Think out of that group there are a number who could still do a job off the bench, particularly if now 23. Chunk, Mevans and Vernon spring to mind as potential impact subs if not starters.

2 ginger monsters :-) Harley and Grant - its what we have been missing.

I think on the 13 jersey we could actually see three different players get an opportunity. Perhaps Ansbro in the first game, NDL in the second and Grove in the final game. I wouldn't object to that, provided we use Scott at 12 throughout.

If ever there was a tour to take a look at the midfield options then this is it.

Game one - 9.Blair 10.Laidlaw 12.Scott 13.Ansbro

Game two - 9.Blair 10.Laidlaw 12.Scott 13.NDL

Game three - 9.Cusiter 10.Weir 12.Scott 13.Grove

I'd have not issue with those options being tested.

funnyExiledScot wrote:As for the NDL discussion, I'm with Radge on this. Let's give him a shot with the rights players around him. Visser has openly stated that he attributed his high try tally with having NDL playing 13. It would be stupid to ignore a highly successful club combination.

I also note that those against NDL are making the usual mistake of ignoring the alternatives when condemning him. Who else should be at 13? Ansbro wasn't an option in the 6 Nations due to injury, and Grove's form has only really picked up towards the end of the season. More a steady eddie. As for Bryan Rennie, not even ASBO, Mr Exeter, was advocating Rennie play in the 6 Nations. NDL has been superb this year for Edinburgh, unquestionnably. It's right he have the 13 jersey fat the start of this tour. As Radge says, last chance saloon, and there'll be no more excuses available. With Ansbro and Grove in the squad, I suspect there'll be some rotation in that jersey. May the best player ultimately win.

How many shots does de Luca need? Having the 'right' players around him is absolute nonsense seeing as the vast majority of the mistakes he makes are nothing to do with who is playing at 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15. I'm also sure that Tim Visser is hardly going to come out with a line like, 'Seriously, my heart sinks every time I see that useless toley trying to pass the ball!' when he's probably friends with de Luca off the field as well as being on the verge of being capped by Scotland.

I would definitely have had Grove in front of de Luca during the Six Nations. Grove may not be the modern-day Philippe Sella, but it's not that easy to tell when he's been playing at Worcester. His spell at Edinburgh was hard to judge seeing as Rob Moffat's selection policy was based on a names-in-a-hat basis. I sincerely hope there are no more excuses for de Luca if he yet again embarrasses himself and his country on the rugby field but I think that the cycle of: plays well at club level > is called up to the national squad > is a disaster for the national squad, will continue until at least the next RWC.

When you watch NDL play at Edinburgh it's like a differant player. I don't for one minute think that there is this invisable "test" level that players choke on that some of the Irish posters are using on the Lions Wings thread to discount Visser as a potential Lions tourist.

IMO there is very little differance between a International Test and a ERC game in terms of intensity and commitment.

NDL does very well for Edinburgh in every facet of his game and should be allowed to try and do so for Scotland with like minded players surrounding him.

Been doing a bit of thinkng in regards to the back 3,

Would love to see :

11. Visser
14. Hogg/Brown
15. Brown/Hogg

thoughts?

Having seen NDL play for Edinburgh he is completely worthy of a place ina a team that will give him the ball. Pointless of course outside someone who does not pass.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Been doing a bit of thinkng in regards to the back 3,

Would love to see :

11. Visser
14. Hogg/Brown
15. Brown/Hogg

thoughts?

Would rather see:

11. Visser
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

Those are my thoughts

Lets try something different - if De Luca hadn't had the 2 yellow cards in the 6N would anyone be that bothered? I think he had an outstanding game against France and, lets be honest, the whole team was crap after that!

Yes I know everyone agrees that he is a good player and it is his stupid mistakes that people have issues with, but as far as I am concerned you can do something about stupid yellows (i.e. don't do stupid things) - it is a lot harder to make someone a better player!

Take his history of yellows away and De Luca is our first choice 13 IMO.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Lets try something different - if De Luca hadn't had the 2 yellow cards in the 6N would anyone be that bothered? I think he had an outstanding game against France and, lets be honest, the whole team was crap after that!

Yes I know everyone agrees that he is a good player and it is his stupid mistakes that people have issues with, but as far as I am concerned you can do something about stupid yellows (i.e. don't do stupid things) - it is a lot harder to make someone a better player!

Take his history of yellows away and De Luca is our first choice 13 IMO.

He is certainly up there on club form, but I genuinely think that Dunbar or Ansbro may be more successful in replicating club form at international level, which is where NDL has fallen down in my book

Also, as this tour is essentially "lets make Matt Scott an International 12 for the long term", I think De Luca is the best man to how outside him, familiarity and all that.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, as this tour is essentially "lets make Matt Scott an International 12 for the long term", I think De Luca is the best man to how outside him, familiarity and all that.

There may be something in that, true enough, but we do need some competition for Matt S

Do Glasgow guys recon Dunbar is a better 12 or 13?

To be fair I think both Scott and Dunbar could do a job at either. My preference would be Scott at 12 and Dunbar at 13.

Dunbar could definitely push Scott for 12 though?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do Glasgow guys recon Dunbar is a better 12 or 13?

To be fair I think both Scott and Dunbar could do a job at either. My preference would be Scott at 12 and Dunbar at 13.

Dunbar could definitely push Scott for 12 though?

I need to see Dunbar play more at 12, altho he did well in a couple of games for the Warriors

RDW_Scotland wrote:Do Glasgow guys recon Dunbar is a better 12 or 13?

To be fair I think both Scott and Dunbar could do a job at either. My preference would be Scott at 12 and Dunbar at 13.

Dunbar could definitely push Scott for 12 though?

To perfectly honest, he's very good at both. I've seen him crash ball at 12 and he breaks the first tackle the majority of the time but similarly he can take a guy on the outside and offload well. He's set up 3 or 4 tries this season from breaks and off-loads.

So to be honest, its a tough call because he's good at both.

Cryptoyourisan wrote:

How many shots does de Luca need? Having the 'right' players around him is absolute nonsense seeing as the vast majority of the mistakes he makes are nothing to do with who is playing at 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15.

I would definitely have had Grove in front of de Luca during the Six Nations. Grove may not be the modern-day Philippe Sella, but it's not that easy to tell when he's been playing at Worcester. His spell at Edinburgh was hard to judge seeing as Rob Moffat's selection policy was based on a names-in-a-hat basis.

I see. So when we're judging Grove we ought to make allowances for the failings of the players around him at Worcester and previously Edinburgh, and yet when judging De Luca, we should ignore the players he has to play with and castigate him for not playing well in a team that has barely been able to string two passes together.

When Scotland openned up, as they did against France, De Luca looked good.

I suspect we're in agree to disagree territory here, I just think that we ought to judge all these guys on the same basis.

ASBO's point is a fair one, that he thinks Ansbro and Grove can better translate club form into the international arena. A fair opinion, and I'd be willing to see all combinations on this tour to make up my mind.