The worrying English geographical drift to the south.

This is a list of the English urban populations

1 London 8,294,058 Greater London, Epping Forest, Broxbourne, Dacorum, Three Rivers, Watford, Dartford, Gravesham, Elmbridge, Epsom and Ewell, Mole Valley, Runnymede, Spelthorne and Woking
2 Birmingham 2,293,099 Cities of Birmingham and Wolverhampton, Metropolitan Boroughs of Dudley, Walsall, Sandwell and Solihull
3 Manchester 1,741,961 Cities of Manchester and Salford; Metropolitan Boroughs of Tameside, Trafford, Bury, Oldham and Stockport
4 Liverpool 830,112 Liverpool, Metropolitan Borough of Knowsley and Metropolitan Borough of St Helens
5 Newcastle 794,500 Newcastle upon Tyne; Metropolitan Boroughs of Gateshead, North Tyneside and South Tyneside
6 Nottingham 667,218 Includes the towns of Beeston and Stapleford, Carlton, Long Eaton and West Bridgford
7 Sheffield 656,160 Includes the town of Rotherham
8 Leeds 596,027 Part of Leeds
9 Bristol 558,566 Bristol and South Gloucestershire
10 Middlesbrough (Teesside) 472,200 Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland and Stockton-on-Tees
11 Leicester 447,328 Leicester, Blaby and Oadby and Wigston
12 Portsmouth 438,489 Includes the towns of Gosport, Waterlooville, Havant, Fareham and Portchester
13 Bradford 417,061 Metropolitan Borough of Bradford
14 Bournemouth 382,536 Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole
15 Reading 373,836 Includes the towns of Bracknell, Wokingham and Crowthorne
16 Huddersfield 367,976 Kirklees
17 Stoke 360,810 Includes the towns of Newcastle under Lyme and Kidsgrove
18 Coventry 335,274 Coventry
19 Birkenhead 331,232 Wirral and Ellesmere Port and Neston
20 Southampton 305,887 Includes the towns of Eastleigh and Bishopstoke

(source (with more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

The worrying thing is that the gravitational pull is to the south.

English rugby is is being dragged down south.

Premiership centres in Newcastle/Yorkshire are being lost. Manchester (Sale) retains a foothold. Liverpool and Birmingham are gone.

Will all top-grade English RU be played south of the Trent in the next five years?

Possibly. Depends how Rotherham get on as I've heard rumours they are to be the new feeder club for Tigers with Notts wanting to sever ties (not sure how accurate that is) but if that is the case then they might step up a bit. Newcastle should bounce back following relegation and Leeds are there or there abouts in the Championship with a developing squad that could get the promotion in a year or two.

There is a worrying amount of London clubs in the Jeff and I don't want to see London Welsh come up and make it another one. Come on the Pirates! Would be nice to see another Northern side get promoted next season.

South? The South is a pretty big place!

London has always been very strong. It will continue to be so.

There's always a "London" flag bearer who will challenge the forces of the Midlands.

The worrying thing for the Midlands is that the "London" clubs have not yet fulfilled their full potential.

Wasps matched Leicester on the pitch but have always struggled with attendances. They can only go up now.

Quins are on an upward curve and with healthy attendances are likely to stay at the top table.

Saracens have so much financial muscle behind them and a new stadium in the pipeline - they can only go up in terms of attendance and will expect to go from strength to strength.

London Irish are locked into Reading but this won't last forever.


Sale will be in the HC next season so all is not lost for the North.

One team north of the Trent is of course just an acre or two beshoked.

Portnoy I personally don't split it into North vs South.

In the API split it into the "London" clubs - Quins,Saracens,Wasps and London Irish vs the east Midland clubs of Leicester and Saints vs those clubs in the West - Worcester,Bath and Gloucester, vs the Northern clubs of Newcastle and Sale vs Exeter - in the far south west.

Please don't confuse the south with London.

The tectonic drift seems to be toward the SW - not the SE.

Portnoy really with Quins and Saracens as two of the strongest clubs in the AP - being in the South East?

London is in the South.

I do happen to know that 'shocked.

But my concern is that the spread of Jeff clubs is becoming increasingly centred south of the Trent. This is not an Anti-Sarries article

Portnoy never saying it's an anti Sarries article. Just weird you say clubs south of the Trent.

The South is a pretty big and broad area!

Do you feel some sort of bizarre camaraderie when talking about clubs south or north of the Trent?

I agree that there should be more rugby clubs in the North yet you look in the Championship there are Rotherham,Leeds and Doncaster in Yorkshire.

I personally don't label Exeter in the same category as Quins for example.

Remember rugby league is the dominant code of rugby in the North. In direct comparison there are very few if any Southern clubs in RL - just London Broncos I believe?

Also another point - there might be not be many Northern clubs but there are plenty of Northen players! Oh and plenty of coaches are the same.

It is not completely new scenario Portnoy, though I am not sure that even you are old enough to remember the meeting in the George Hotel

There are finite funds available to support professional sport in England, and the area noth of the Thames is rather well served by top flight soccer teams - reducing the ability for Rugby to thrive. If you consider the number of northern players who end up in league - the representation of northern players in the England touring squad is still pretty good - just a shame most of them had to move south to gain recognition.

As an aside, interesting that London's population is bigger than all of the cities rankes 2-9 combined!

You could argue that in the past the SW was underrepresented in terms of top flight teams as in my biased opinion its a real rugby heartland. It would be great if the Pirates could be promoted and the sort of 'county nationalism' that used to lead to such great support for their county team could get behind them.

Also another point - there might be not be many Northern clubs but there are plenty of Northen players! Oh and plenty of coaches are the same

Remember rugby league is the dominant code of rugby in the North. In direct comparison there are very few if any Southern clubs in RL - just London Broncos I believe?

I believe it's the essence of those two quotes that is the concern. The English RU games is enriched by northern talent both players and coaches but the worrying lack of Northern success and the potential for limited top flight rugby on show up North coupled with the RL teams on the door step and the love of football could see a generation or two of Northern sportsmen choose RL or football over Union. That would not be a good thing going forward.

a generation or two of Northern sportsmen choose RL or football over Union

The Blazers would be happy - not so far to travel for a decent Luncheon.


The only time I saw Andy Robinson at Kingston Park was as manager of Scotland.

TrailApe wrote:
The only time I saw Andy Robinson at Kingston Park was as manager of Scotland.

Andy Robinson still believes Newcastle is in Scotland.

Sale are ambitious and are consolidating their position in the North-West by moving into a new stadium in a bigger population centre. Newcastle also have an ambitious owner with a long term vision. The odd one out for me is Yorkshire, they need a team at the top table. If you look back down the age grades, Leeds still produce a lot of players for England, that is their hope and damnation I feel.

Cumbrian where's the money though?

I think that west of england is as far from london as the north (as an outsider)

The north is always going to struggle with RL being mainly there just like RU is so strong in the south.

Problem is Leeds is really United or Rhinos. They really do not get behind Tykes/Carnegie/Insert Latest Name here.

In a lot of ways Yorkshire rugby has not been dissimilar to the Borders with a lot of small teams vieing for local supremacy. I bet there are still (former) members of Headingly and Roundhay unwilling to acknowledge Leeds as their club.

At least in the North East, where there are a lot of smaller clubs as well, Gosforth tended to be the pinnacle.

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian where's the money though?

Cape Town? Joburg? Port Elizabeth? Durban?

Portnoy what's wrong with South Africa? I think you suffer from xenophobia.

Leeds definitely needs to be back in the AP.

I know this is a long shot but could the RFU put in place that there has to be a northern team in the top two divisions or could they form (dare i say it) a regional team for leeds owned by the clubs which the players feed into.

On money i think a rich team in the north will do more for RU then an ok supported team. People follow success.

beshocked wrote:Portnoy what's wrong with South Africa? I think you suffer from xenophobia.

Leeds definitely needs to be back in the AP.

I believe that the English league should fundamentally support the English side.

Look at what's happened to the Premiersip and English footy.

What would be the reaction in SA if an English punter took over a franchise and created an essentially UK-based side?

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian where's the money though?

Well for Newcastle the new owner Semore Kurdi is worth a bob or two. For Sale Brian Kennedy isn't exactly without funds either.

At least in the North East, where there are a lot of smaller clubs as well, Gosforth tended to be the pinnacle..

Yeah and the best thing they did was get rid of the 'Gosforth' title. I wouldn't be a season ticket holder if it was still Gosforth - I used to hate the snobby pr*cks.

I believe that the English league should fundamentally support the English side

Portnoy, I agree with you - but before this became a reality there would have to be a lot more transparency of the dealings within the RFU, I think they are a bunch of bimbling incompetents and should be shot with Poopie.

The only saving grace of the RFU is the people out there working with the grass roots.

Shot With "Poopie" - Ye Gods........

What would be the reaction in SA if an English punter took over a franchise and created an essentially UK-based side?

Whilst the Saffacens title used to have a little merit I'm not sure it applies now that Venter has gone and the stream of SA players has slowed considerably. Normal team for Sarries this season is something like:

Gill, Brits, Stevens
Botha, Borthwick
Wray, Joubert, Saull/Fraiser
Spencer, Hodgson
Barritt, Farrell
Strettle, Goode, Wyles

The marjority of that lot is English and English capped as well. Now we may both be in agreement that the likes of Stevens continuation in the England squad is a blight on our national game but you can't really call that a Saffa team in the English league.

Sam - from an outsiders view point, you could also argue that there is still a strong SA flavour to that said, with a number of the players having links to SA even if they are not SA players. If that makes sence.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

What would be the reaction in SA if an English punter took over a franchise and created an essentially UK-based side?

Whilst the Saffacens title used to have a little merit I'm not sure it applies now that Venter has gone and the stream of SA players has slowed considerably. Normal team for Sarries this season is something like:

Gill, Brits, Stevens
Botha, Borthwick
Wray, Joubert, Saull/Fraiser
Spencer, Hodgson
Barritt, Farrell
Strettle, Goode, Wyles

The marjority of that lot is English and English capped as well. Now we may both be in agreement that the likes of Stevens continuation in the England squad is a blight on our national game but you can't really call that a Saffa team in the English league.

And if you could draw a circle on the globe around the origins of EQPs and NEQ players, would there be any comparison between any Jeff side and the Saffacens. Place of birth would be a stat to go by.

Sam - from an outsiders view point, you could also argue that there is still a strong SA flavour to that said, with a number of the players having links to SA even if they are not SA players. If that makes sence.

Oh there is certainly still a Saffa twist to Sarries and that is apparent in some of their signings and there choice of horns and kit for the fans. However, it's a tad harsh to call them a South African team in an English league which is what Portnoy was insinuating. I'm certainly not a Sarries fan, their rugby style is not my cup of tea and they are purposefully antagonistic (and certainly not the only team to be either), I just felt they deserved a little bit of support now they've started signing and developing English talent again.

Born in England - not sure why that is importan?

Well at WR on Saturday Sarries had 13 players born in England, 7 in Southern Africa (2 with English caps) and one each in Wales, Italy and USA

Tigers had just 11 born in England (barely more than Wales ), 4 from Pacific Islands, 3 in Argentina and NZ, 1 in Ireland and 1 in australia.


so yes, of course Saracens have a link with Southern Africa, but they also have a discernible link with England.

4 from Pacific Islands

1 of which has an England cap remember!

Who was the Aussie?

Portnoy in "rugby in despair" shocker!! When are you going to post a discussion about something positive you grumpy so and so?!

None of this is any surprise surely? The South West has no other decent major sports to contend with, which is why rugby is seen as so popular. As has been pointed out the North has major wendyball and RL sides. Despite the overall downward trend of registered players, the grass roots level in the north is still strong and surely that is the major point?

Being pedantic, but why should the sport be here to fundamentally support the national side? How many of your average fans actually go to watch England? Twickenham is a soulless place full of drunk corporate guests who take 20 minutes to realise the ball isn't round!

HongKongCherry wrote:The South West has no other decent major sports to contend with, which is why rugby is seen as so popular.

Nonesence, it is because it is near enough to Wales to catch our rugby passion

Being serious about the Sarries/SA issue, do London Wasps get any stick for their recent welsh tendancies, or Sale for their scottis links?

Oh yeah Portnoy you should check out the respective representations in the England U18s and U20s some days.

Also you seem to gloss over the amount of foreigners that Sale,London Irish and Exeter have in their squads.

Exeter in particular are praised to the roof tops but their squad in my opinion is detrimental to the English team.

Portnoy the way you speak sometimes it's as if you believe in Nazi theology.

You never seem to bat an eyelid when it comes to true born English ManuSamoa Tuilagi of Leicestershire.

Do you think the likes of Matt Stevens,Dylan Hartley,Simon Shaw,Mike Catt and Alex Corbisiero should be burnt at the stake?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Nonesence, it is because it is near enough to Wales to catch our rugby passion

Judging by the state of Gloucester girls we're near enough to catch something!!

ScarletSpiderman wrote: Being serious about the Sarries/SA issue, do London Wasps get any stick for their recent welsh tendancies, or Sale for their scottis links?

Totally agree. Glaws didn't get any stick for the Scottish contigent, but in fairness I feel Sarries only get stick because the link made them a competitive and decent side

beshocked wrote:Oh yeah Portnoy you should check out the respective representations in the England U18s and U20s some days.

Also you seem to gloss over the amount of foreigners that Sale,London Irish and Exeter have in their squads.

Exeter in particular are praised to the roof tops but their squad in my opinion is detrimental to the English team.

Portnoy the way you speak sometimes it's as if you believe in Nazi theology.

You never seem to bat an eyelid when it comes to true born English ManuSamoa Tuilagi of Leicestershire.

Do you think the likes of Matt Stevens,Dylan Hartley,Simon Shaw,Mike Catt and Alex Corbisiero should be burnt at the stake?

Sorry gotta pull you on that one! In what way, beshocked, bearing in mind that we started from the handicap of not being able to recruit until after winning the Championship and all the best EQP were already contracted to other teams?

Totally agree. Glaws didn't get any stick for the Scottish contigent, but in fairness I feel Sarries only get stick because the link made them a competitive and decent side

I think it stems from Sarries releasing large swaiths of their team and then purchasing a good number of foreign players (a number of which were Boks) in order to flesh the squad out again.

Do you think the likes of Matt Stevens,Dylan Hartley,Simon Shaw,Mike Catt and Alex Corbisiero should be burnt at the stake?

You do know that, although, Shaw was born in Kenya it was only because his parents worked there and that they sent him to an English prep school based in Spain? Despite being away from England it was always his country.

Aslongasbut100 I am sorry but you look through the Exeter side and you can't say that it's got the same class as the likes of Leicester,Saints,Saracens and Quins on paper. These sides are chock full of international quality and English young guns.

Most of the English Exeter players are in their late 20s. The foreigners are hard workers but not at the same level as the likes of Castro,Brits,Evans,Tongauiha,Burger etc.

Exeter don't have any big names which is a good and bad thing. It means they are more team orientated and have shown themselves to be tough cookies but with very few young guns banging on the door and no big stars they don't capture the imagination YET.

I think Exeter will get there in the end as they improve but not yet.

Which other club would consider switching a game abroad?

Wasps

beshocked wrote:Aslongasbut100 I am sorry but you look through the Exeter side and you can't say that it's got the same class as the likes of Leicester,Saints,Saracens and Quins on paper. These sides are chock full of international quality and English young guns.

Most of the English Exeter players are in their late 20s. The foreigners are hard workers but not at the same level as the likes of Castro,Brits,Evans,Tongauiha,Burger etc.

Exeter don't have any big names which is a good and bad thing. It means they are more team orientated and have shown themselves to be tough cookies but with no young guns banging on the door and no big stars they don't capture the imagination YET.

I think Exeter will get there in the end as they improve but not yet.

Ah right, I see where you are coming from, I think I might have misinterpreted what you meant by 'detrimental to the English team'. Just looking at our playing staff on the offy, 37 are EQP and 14 are NEQ. None from either group are really 'star' names, I agree, but that is partly Exe's philosophy, and partly that there were none available to sign when we got promoted. Of our young guns, last year's England U18 backline was all Exeter apart from one winger (once we signed James Lightfoot-Brown), and we've 3 names fairly consistently in England U20 this year (with Jack Nowell unlucky to miss out from injury). I'm not sure that there's much else we can be doing tbh?

I know Exeter have players in the U18s and U20s but they aren't in the main Exeter squad hence my bit about Exeter not being there YET.

I think Exeter will be much more high profile in the next 3-5 years but you're not there yet.

You could play more of your young guns, could sign more high profile foreigners etc. Learning from a low profile foreigner isn't the same as learning off a player like Evans,Smit,Castrogiovanni etc.

For us AP fans obviously we know the likes of Skaysbrook,Hayes,Johnson,Arscott etc but would someone for example in the Pro12 know anything about them? Maybe not.

Which other club would consider switching a game abroad?

Quins?

beshocked wrote:I know Exeter have players in the U18s and U20s but they aren't in the main Exeter squad hence my bit about Exeter not being there YET.

I think Exeter will be much more high profile in the next 3-5 years but you're not there yet.

You could play more of your young guns, could sign more high profile foreigners etc. Learning from a low profile foreigner isn't the same as learning off a player like Evans,Smit,Castrogiovanni etc.

For us AP fans obviously we know the likes of Skaysbrook,Hayes,Johnson,Arscott etc but would someone for example in the Pro12 know anything about them? Maybe not.

Nah, they wouldn't, you're right. The young guns have had some games in the LV Cup and have seen plenty of action in the A league, but I think it will be a year or two before they come thru. I think we'd love to hire the likes of Evans or Castro, but players like them, with the excellent attitude that they bring in addition to their high quality as players, are not all that common, are they?

Exeter have been a breath of fresh air, their playing style well adjusted to the talent available and great team ethos.

Teams in the north have been dogged by combinations of factors for years. Poor coaching, drains on their academies, insufficient or misdirected investment. In Leeds case, taking a gambol on Back was a massive drain on resources which didn't and maybe never could be sustainable or successful. I genuinely doubt that we can hope for promotion in the next 2 years but looking for some positive actions to be taken. Review due to be published next week.

Sale look likely to improve and Newcastle have good reason to be hopeful on the investment, coaching and relegation fronts. However both of them have a wildly chequered history in the Jeff.

I do believe, however, that all 3 teams can find a sustainable model and that there is sufficient support available if they can achieve even moderate success and play attractive rugby.

Portnoy wrote:This is a list of the English urban populations

1 London 8,294,058 Greater London, Epping Forest, Broxbourne, Dacorum, Three Rivers, Watford, Dartford, Gravesham, Elmbridge, Epsom and Ewell, Mole Valley, Runnymede, Spelthorne and Woking
2 Birmingham 2,293,099 Cities of Birmingham and Wolverhampton, Metropolitan Boroughs of Dudley, Walsall, Sandwell and Solihull
3 Manchester 1,741,961 Cities of Manchester and Salford; Metropolitan Boroughs of Tameside, Trafford, Bury, Oldham and Stockport
4 Liverpool 830,112 Liverpool, Metropolitan Borough of Knowsley and Metropolitan Borough of St Helens
5 Newcastle 794,500 Newcastle upon Tyne; Metropolitan Boroughs of Gateshead, North Tyneside and South Tyneside
6 Nottingham 667,218 Includes the towns of Beeston and Stapleford, Carlton, Long Eaton and West Bridgford
7 Sheffield 656,160 Includes the town of Rotherham
8 Leeds 596,027 Part of Leeds
9 Bristol 558,566 Bristol and South Gloucestershire
10 Middlesbrough (Teesside) 472,200 Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland and Stockton-on-Tees
11 Leicester 447,328 Leicester, Blaby and Oadby and Wigston
12 Portsmouth 438,489 Includes the towns of Gosport, Waterlooville, Havant, Fareham and Portchester
13 Bradford 417,061 Metropolitan Borough of Bradford
14 Bournemouth 382,536 Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole
15 Reading 373,836 Includes the towns of Bracknell, Wokingham and Crowthorne
16 Huddersfield 367,976 Kirklees
17 Stoke 360,810 Includes the towns of Newcastle under Lyme and Kidsgrove
18 Coventry 335,274 Coventry
19 Birkenhead 331,232 Wirral and Ellesmere Port and Neston
20 Southampton 305,887 Includes the towns of Eastleigh and Bishopstoke

(source (with more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Primary_Urban_Areas_in_England_by_population

The worrying thing is that the gravitational pull is to the south.

English rugby is is being dragged down south.

Premiership centres in Newcastle/Yorkshire are being lost. Manchester (Sale) retains a foothold. Liverpool and Birmingham are gone.

Will all top-grade English RU be played south of the Trent in the next five years?

Yes.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

4 from Pacific Islands

1 of which has an England cap remember!

Who was the Aussie?

Bah, I forgot Salvi was withdrawn as well. One more Englishman for us

On another note - northerners in that game:

Ford, Parling, Woods
Borthwick, Vyvyan, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Farrell, Strettle

Decent representation

Sale are looking most likely to be the saviour of the North at this point. backing up a halfway competitive season they have some decent investement with an eye on becoming the default northern franchise if the RFU ever get round to forcing that system through.

The drift South is worrying in one sense , but at least its coupled with the opening up of the extreme south west with Exeter

No...newcastle will be back and will be very strong again...

Also its important to mention now is that both Tynedale and Blaydon are in National League 1 only two off the prem...so i would say Rugby up here could be growing...