Richard Cockerill Angry at Lancaster

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/164223.html

Richard Cockerill seems vivid at Stuart Lancaster for saying that they will not take Toby Flood on tour if he isn't fit before the leaving date and that they will monitor his progress. These comments were made in regard to questions put to SL from the media at a conference...Cockerill has now refused the england physio to see flood and has gone to the media to say how out of order Lancaster is......

"It's very unhelpful," Cockerill said. "He is on club duty, it's our business and it's not helpful that there is speculation surrounding his fitness. For me it's inappropriate talking about it, just as I wouldn't talk about one of our players while they were on Test duty. It's not my business to do that."

It's a new regime and, in this instance, it's an isolated incident and I think there is no need for it. Stuart wants to build relationships with the press and that is important but the comments about Toby are out of place, really."

Now i have no idea what RC is banging on about...the speculation is already there, everyone already knows that Toby flood is injured as George ford played the semi and everyone is speculating about whether he will be fit to make the final...this is not covert information !! Stu lancaster is planning his trip to SA and his match against the babas and naturally he is going to be asked questions about key personnel...what is he meant to say sorry i can't talk about any players until the club season is over....

Now leicester and cockerill seem to want to make something out of nothing...they did it regarding flood and youngs during the six nations hurling abuse at the England management and now they are doing it again.....I don't understand their mindset....Lancaster had every right to say those things when asked, if Cockerill wants information about floods injury kept secret then the results of the england physio check should be asked to kept under wraps...and that seems fair enough.

It seems twice now Cockerill and leicester are the ones out of order when lancaster seems to be following normal and rational decision making processes..

What do you think ??

Well he's always angry about something or other isn't he ?

Cockerill is completely in the wrong. Throwing his toys out of the pram.

Lancaster is well within his rights to question the fitness of one of the players he picked.

As you say Flood's dubious fitness/injury is already in the public domain.

Flood and Cockerill should just be honest.Tell us the exact details of Flood's "injuries".

Can you explain why it's Lancasters right to tell the world (quins) who will be playing in the final? Allowing them two weeks to plan there attacks?

Cockers is always angry at someone. It was just Lancaster's turn...

Nathan it's being open and honest. I would expect Quins to divulge the information on Care and Monye's availability too.

You should have enough faith in your team without having to resort to off the pitch skulduggery.

Flood and Cockerill should just be honest.Tell us the exact details of Flood's "injuries".

Why should he open up Flood's medical file 10 days before a crucial clash Flood is desperately trying to recover in time for. Lancaster has no business discussing Flood when Flood is not with England. Same as when Flood is with England Cockerill has no business questioning his injury status. In fact it's a bit cheeky considering Cockerill said nothing whilst the same England physios passed Ben Youngs to play at the RWC weeks after knee surgery and sent him back to Tigers unfit. There's no central contract in place, Flood is a Tigers player unless it's a window defined under the EPS. Lancaster gossiping to the papers and the head physio tweeting updates as he headed down to Oval Park to check on Flood is out of order. Tigers players are not allowed to tweet about their injuries or discuss short term injuries in the public domain, it is kept in house like a lot of what Tigers does.

Lancaster would be unimpressed if Cockers came out and gossiped about Tigers players whilst they were on tour with England.

What I think really wrankles with Cockers is that at no point were the Quins players that missed their semi ever discussed. Either discuss all injured player or discuss none. Don't be handing out private injury details to the opposition so they have a tactical advantage well in advance of a major final!

Nathan it's being open and honest. I would expect Quins to divulge the information on Care and Monye's availability too.

You should have enough faith in your team without having to resort to off the pitch skulduggery

Bet you O'Shea doesn't come out this afternoon and say that Care and Monye are crocked though. It's hardly skullduggery it's called a level playing field and we all look forward to the team announcements before big games.

beshocked wrote:Nathan it's being open and honest. I would expect Quins to divulge the information on Care and Monye's availability too.

You should have enough faith in your team without having to resort to off the pitch skulduggery.

And they have. Conor O'Shea told a newspaper yesterday that Quins expect to have a full squad available.

nd they have. Conor O'Shea told a newspaper yesterday that Quins expect to have a full squad available.

Cockerill has said practically the same last weekend only for Lancaster to question it openly in the national media. Then the bl00dy physio had the nerve to post frinkin' twitter updates as he was heading to Oval Park!

Sam it's not a level playing field when one side is completely honest about their team whereas the other changes two of their players that were originally named in the starting line up.

Just because one team shows gamesmanship doesn't mean both should.

Flood has to ask himself - does he want to play for England? If he does he has to be honest with the England boss. Either yes mate I'll be available or sorry mate the injury is worse than we all feared.

Lancaster is interested in Flood because we wants him ready for England.

If Leicester are going to be so insular then Lancaster should say - you won't play ball - fine - Burns can have Flood's place in the England squad.

You look forward to the team announcements until you find out they are wrong!


Seriously what is the harm in knowing Flood's injury status?

Thing is, COS has no reputation for playing mind games and economy with the truth.

Cockers has to some extent brought this on himself with the shell game he played last week over Ford and Flood. The fact that Flood is still injured is adding fuel to the fire. People read into it that he was never in shape to play last weekend, and don't trust what Tigers put out on the issue.

Given that Lancaster has to form a gameplan for SA, it's not unreasonable for him to try to find out the likely state of a key player from someone he trusts. It's also consistent with his own stance on integrity and playing it straight with the media to be pretty open about things that affect his squad. Cockers may not like that, but he should have expected it.

Poorfour wrote:Thing is, COS has no reputation for playing mind games and economy with the truth.

Cockers has to some extent brought this on himself with the shell game he played last week over Ford and Flood. The fact that Flood is still injured is adding fuel to the fire. People read into it that he was never in shape to play last weekend, and don't trust what Tigers put out on the issue.

Given that Lancaster has to form a gameplan for SA, it's not unreasonable for him to try to find out the likely state of a key player from someone he trusts. It's also consistent with his own stance on integrity and playing it straight with the media to be pretty open about things that affect his squad. Cockers may not like that, but he should have expected it.

Nobody is saying the England folks shouldn't know about the status of England players at their club, The issue is then broadcasting that information to the public through twitter.

It's not professional.

beshocked wrote:Sam it's not a level playing field when one side is completely honest about their team whereas the other changes two of their players that were originally named in the starting line up.

Just because one team shows gamesmanship doesn't mean both should.

Flood has to ask himself - does he want to play for England? If he does he has to be honest with the England boss. Either yes mate I'll be available or sorry mate the injury is worse than we all feared.

Lancaster is interested in Flood because we wants him ready for England.

If Leicester are going to be so insular then Lancaster should say - you won't play ball - fine - Burns can have Flood's place in the England squad.

You look forward to the team announcements until you find out they are wrong!


Seriously what is the harm in knowing Flood's injury status?

But it was quins who annouced the status of the injuries. It wasn't an England Physio who decided to tweet the news to the world. It's not englands place to annouce the fitness of club players (i say club as it's not in the international window) when there preparing for the AV final.

Nathan what's wrong with the public knowing?

Whenever I happen to see a injured Saracens player I normally ask them how long they think they'll be out for. They are very open. Of course they don't know exactly but they have an approximate answer.

As fans we want to know when a player will be available.

All this mind games and gamesmanship is just rubbish.

I don't think it's professional to name a team then have different players on the pitch. Certainly when you know they are unavailable.

beshocked wrote:Nathan what's wrong with the public knowing?

Whenever I happen to see a injured Saracens player I normally ask them how long they think they'll be out for. They are very open. Of course they don't know exactly but they have an approximate answer.

As fans we want to know when a player will be available.

All this mind games and gamesmanship is just rubbish.

I don't think it's professional to name a team then have different players on the pitch. Certainly when you know they are unavailable.

That's your opinion, not fact.

Ofcourse we all want to know, but there's a right way for the information to be made public. Letting an individual that doesn't even work for the club post it on twitter isnt the way.

Nobody is saying the England folks shouldn't know about the status of England players at their club, The issue is then broadcasting that information to the public through twitter.

It's not professional.

+1

I don't think it's professional to name a team then have different players on the pitch. Certainly when you know they are unavailable.

Flood went over on his ankle. It's a twist, there's no way of knowing how quickly the swelling will go down and when the bruising will fade enough to run on. I've done it twice and the first time the thing balooned to twice the normal size but was fine the following week and the second time it just bruised and I was hobbling around for a few weeks.

Since when has it been unheard of for teams to change on the day because of injuries? Saints replaced Ashton at the last minute with Artimyev after Ashton was declared fit. It happens when you are 50/50 on a players fitness ahead of a big game.

There is also a massive difference between knowing the squad details the day before and knowing them 10 days in advance. Lancaster has almost ruled Flood out and now Quins will be thinking, "10 channel it is then" and "we can give away penalties just inside our half because his range is limited". Their game plan will be far more certain.

Nathan you are obviously a big fan of gamesmanship.

I am not just asking Leicester to be honest. I want Quins to be open about Care and Monye too.

Of course it's my opinion hence I used I think/don't think.

Double standards from Sam and Nathan - what a surprise!

You are more pro Leicester than I am Saracens in my opinion. At least when Saracens do something wrong I hold up my hands and say that was wrong.

Take the Leicester blinkers off for one second guys.

It's not unheard of to change teams on the day but in Flood's case it's obvious he was never going to start vs Saracens. That's gamesmanship.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/12/leicester-richard-cockerill-george-ford?newsfeed=true

Mike Ford did tell the media his son would play. Certainly according to the guardian and I heard it from a pretty reliable source personally.

Has this reached sufficiently feverish proportions that we are allowed to call it Floodgate?




I'll get me coat.

"Ford's father, the former England defence coach Mike Ford who will be part of Bath's management team next season, said on Thursday night that his son would be playing against Saracens, even though Flood was named in the team 15 hours later.

"That was the result of a misunderstanding," said Leicester's director of rugby, Richard Cockerill, who succeeded last week in persuading the England head coach, Stuart Lancaster, not to take Ford on the summer tour to South Africa. "I have spoken to Mike and it will not happen again"

Pretty much what Cockers has then had to reiterate to Lancaster though I don't remember seeing anything in the papers or on the beeb about Mike Ford's comments.

You are more pro Leicester than I am Saracens in my opinion. At least when Saracens do something wrong I hold up my hands and say that was wrong.

I do regularly moan about the Tigers management and wish they'd have done things differently (e.g. why is Hamilton on the bench when Smith is available?) but in this instance I fail to see what Cockers has done wrong. Lancaster and the English physio have been talking about things the club didn't want to publicise just yet and the club have reacted. An apology from Lancaster for the misunderstanding and it will all blow over.

beshocked wrote:Nathan you are obviously a big fan of gamesmanship.

I am not just asking Leicester to be honest. I want Quins to be open about Care and Monye too.

Of course it's my opinion hence I used I think/don't think.

Double standards from Sam and Nathan - what a surprise!

You are more pro Leicester than I am Saracens in my opinion. At least when Saracens do something wrong I hold up my hands and say that was wrong.

Take the Leicester blinkers off for one second guys.

It's not unheard of to change teams on the day but in Flood's case it's obvious he was never going to start vs Saracens. That's gamesmanship.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/12/leicester-richard-cockerill-george-ford?newsfeed=true

Mike Ford did tell the media his son would play. Certainly according to the guardian and I heard it from a pretty reliable source personally.

Could you provide evidence of me showing double standards or you just throwing out your usual tripe. I would be saying the exact same thing about any team. It's the team's decision to announce injuries, not englands.

Of course i'm pro Leicester i support them, question is though, why are you so anti-Leicester?

I think all teams should release their lineout calls as well. After all they're only there to disguise where the ball is going to be thrown to. It's gamesmanship, gamesmanship I tell thee.

I think this is more of a problem with Lancaster saying it to the media, not about the relationship between club and national team. Of course Lancaster is allowed to call up Cockers and ask "what's the situation with flood?" but to say he has a certain time frame to be fit puts unnecessary pressure on the club and the player IMO.

I think the situation on naming Flood the other week is a completely different conversation than we should be having on this topic.

HammerofThunor wrote:I think all teams should release their lineout calls as well. After all they're only there to disguise where the ball is going to be thrown to. It's gamesmanship, gamesmanship I tell thee.

Your right, to be honest and fair we should release all our planned backs moves too!

Stop being facetious HammerofThunor and Nathan.

Particularly ironic comments from a Wasps fan about gamesmanship.

So Nathan is Flood injured or not?

Lineout calls and planned backs moves are different obviously.

Sam you rarely seem to think Leicester do anything wrong. Cockerill is a deity, Youngs is the greatest scrum half in the world, cruelly victimised by Lancaster.

The only criticism you can come with is swapping one pretty low profile player for another - great!

Why am I so anti Leicester? I am not all the time actually. though Some things that annoy me about Leicester:
1.Equo Troiano - rarely says anything constructive. By far the worst poster on 606v2 in my opinion. The most odious WUM but not yet banned.
2.The Leicester attitude - very insular, sanctimonious, rarely admitting you are wrong.
3.Richard Cockerill and Matt O Connor. Especially Matt O Connor.
4.Favouritism when it comes to England


Lancaster should not apologise at all.

Is Leicester all bad? No. Your stadium is good, Leicester fans on these boards except for two of you seem to know a lot about rugby. The atmosphere at WR was good. Leicester has a lot of good players. I like Murphy.

There is a lot to praise Leicester for but I never need to as you do it enough yourselves.

Venter should have not have gone back to SA.

He should stayed at the Sarries and fessed up to his nervous breakdown. (allegedly)

Sorry Portnoy what's Venter got to do with anything?

So what information is actually in the public domain now?

Oh and I expect you Leicester fans to jump on my criticisms but completely ignore whenever I compliment Leicester as usual.

Who's the Wasps fan?

You

Sam you rarely seem to think Leicester do anything wrong. Cockerill is a deity, Youngs is the greatest scrum half in the world, cruelly victimised by Lancaster

Considering I called for Ben Youngs to be sent back to Tigers during the 6N I can't see how I build him up that much. Cockerill makes enough mistakes and is certainly far from a deity (I wasn't sure about him getting the job in the first place), his refusal to bring in a defence coach is my biggest annoyance with Leicester as a club. I just think in this instance he has it right and on the back of a difficult season he's done a good job as a DoR.

Why am I so anti Leicester? I am not all the time actually. though Some things that annoy me about Leicester:
1.Equo Troiano - rarely says anything constructive. By far the worst poster on 606v2 in my opinion. The most odious WUM but not yet banned.
2.The Leicester attitude - very insular, sanctimonious, rarely admitting you are wrong.
3.Richard Cockerill and Matt O Connor. Especially Matt O Connor.
4.Favouritism when it comes to England

1. Equo is unconnected to the club, his views are not endorsed by the club.
2. Tigers are very old fashioned and things are kept in house (it's the way it's always been), only two months ago Cockers admitted he was wrong for not throwing the younger generation of players into the team earlier in the season and regularly makes comments about him still learning.
3. Richard Cockerill does rub people up the wrong way because he speaks his mind and is fiercely competitive but you can't deny he is consistent and successful. Pretty much the embodiment of Tigers rugby right there. MOC is a man under a lot of pressure with a number of Tigers fans calling for his head around December and January time, his attacking plans are either brilliant or awful and he is kept away from the media because he is even worse than Cockerill when it comes to speaking his mind (see his interview criticising England mid tournament).
4. Favourticism? Tell that to Allen and Flood!

beshocked wrote:You

That's a low blow isn't it? Is it slang or something? Otherwise I've no idea where you've got the idea I'm a Wasps fan from.

beshocked wrote:Stop being facetious HammerofThunor and Nathan.

Particularly ironic comments from a Wasps fan about gamesmanship.

So Nathan is Flood injured or not?

Lineout calls and planned backs moves are different obviously.

Sam you rarely seem to think Leicester do anything wrong. Cockerill is a deity, Youngs is the greatest scrum half in the world, cruelly victimised by Lancaster.

The only criticism you can come with is swapping one pretty low profile player for another - great!

Why am I so anti Leicester? I am not all the time actually. though Some things that annoy me about Leicester:
1.Equo Troiano - rarely says anything constructive. By far the worst poster on 606v2 in my opinion. The most odious WUM but not yet banned.
2.The Leicester attitude - very insular, sanctimonious, rarely admitting you are wrong.
3.Richard Cockerill and Matt O Connor. Especially Matt O Connor.
4.Favouritism when it comes to England


Lancaster should not apologise at all.

Is Leicester all bad? No. Your stadium is good, Leicester fans on these boards except for two of you seem to know a lot about rugby. The atmosphere at WR was good. Leicester has a lot of good players. I like Murphy.

There is a lot to praise Leicester for but I never need to as you do it enough yourselves.

before i rubbish the post above, i'm still after some explanation as to why i have double standards and for you to provide some evidence.

I don't know if Flood will be fit for the match or not.

1. Your anti-Leicester because of a poster on here that likes to WUM? Didn't realise he got to you that much.
2. I'm sorry but this is just a load of crap, they always admit if they've done something wrong, as much as any other team.
3. You don't like RC or MOC, great i disliked Venter, i dislike Dorian West. Still have respect for sarries and saints.
4. Seriously, favouritism. Please beshocked, go get your tin foil hat!

I now know nothing about Rugby because i disagree with you..... Doesnt even dignify a response.

You have lost a lot of respect from me beshocked.

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Folks, can we all please cool down a bit. The last few posts are treading a very fine line on deletion for personal attacks.

yeah sorry kiwi, i'm just going to ignore this thread now.

Lets face it, when asked about England absentees - if Lancaster had stated that Care (who is critical to how Quins will play - as Dickson changes the whole attacking style of the team) will not be available for the England tour, then quite rightly Conor O'Shea would have been miffed.

It would also have been a non-story.

nathan wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Folks, can we all please cool down a bit. The last few posts are treading a very fine line on deletion for personal attacks.

yeah sorry kiwi, i'm just going to ignore this thread now.

I'm not sure Kiwi that any of the above posts have gone anywhere close to the house rules. Compared to many articles which have gone on uncensored and contributed to by Mods/Admins/Owners etc.

Nathan this is double standards: saying it's disgraceful that Lancaster is asking Cockerill whether Flood is injured or not.

On the other hand in your opinion it's absolutely fine to name someone in your team even when you know they won't be available in an attempt to confuse the opposition.

Obviously not all Leicester fans are sanctimonious etc. I just feel that Leicester/ the fans in general don't give other clubs enough respect. Maybe that's what you get being at the top table.

When you see the same old injury excuses, the world cup etc and Cockerill's a top bloke honest!

No I am not referring to you as one of the two.

I can completely understand disliking Venter. He rubbed people up the wrong way.

Why can't you see why people dislike Cockerill?

Do you think I honestly want to keep disagreeing? Of course not. Actually on a few things we agree.

Things I want to see:

Cockerill putting things to bed by saying what Flood's actual status is.

Conor O shea coming out with Monye and Care's actual status.

Then get on with the AP final with no more discussions.

Why does he need to say publicly what Floods fitness level is????

beshocked wrote:Nathan this is double standards: saying it's disgraceful that Lancaster is asking Cockerill whether Flood is injured or not.

That's not what i or anyone else is saying. The issue is broadcasting that information to the public.

beshocked wrote:
On the other hand in your opinion it's absolutely fine to name someone in your team even when you know they won't be available in an attempt to confuse the opposition.

Where have i said this as i don't know if Flood is injured or not and neither do you.

beshocked wrote:
Obviously not all Leicester fans are sanctimonious etc. I just feel that Leicester/ the fans in general don't give other clubs enough respect. Maybe that's what you get being at the top table.

Maybe it is, but in about each and every interview that cockerill has given i can bet you'll hear the following comment from cockerill "look, {insert team} are a top class team....." Isn't that showing respect?

beshocked wrote:
When you see the same old injury excuses, the world cup etc and Cockerill's a top bloke honest!

eh? We did have injuries, everyone else has them too. in fact i think you commented on how Sarries had a fair few missing for the tigers/sarries match at VR.

beshocked wrote:
No I am not referring to you as one of the two.
I can completely understand disliking Venter. He rubbed people up the wrong way.
Why can't you see why people dislike Cockerill?

eh? Could you let me know why you think i can't see it? Have you just made this up as i don't think ive ever said everyone should like him. I can totally see why people don't like him.

beshocked wrote:
Do you think I honestly want to keep disagreeing? Of course not. Actually on a few things we agree.
Things I want to see:
Cockerill putting things to bed by saying what Flood's actual status is.
Conor O shea coming out with Monye and Care's actual status.
Then get on with the AP final with no more discussions.

Why do either of the teams need to come out and say anything? They don't have to tell us anything till nearer the time, i don't see why you think we have a right to know so much in advance?

Beshocked, you seem to be getting worked up about nothing. Has anyone said that Lancaster shouldn't know Flood's injury status? I'm pretty sure everyone is saying he shouldn't have told the media about it.

And why do you think I'm a Wasp's fan? I'm sure that's happened before.

Yeah, we'll send each other memos of our tactics too.

I think Cockerill has a right to feel hard done by, though it looks like an honest mistake. The difference for Lancaster between Care/Monye and Flood is that Flood may well be first choice for him- our players aren't. But it was still a slip-up, even if it hasn't really told anyone anything new- flood was injured, therefore of course there's the possibility he might not make the final or tour. COS still doesn't know if he will play or not so he's going to have to plan for either eventuality any way. In the end, it's kind of irrelevant

I reckon Care is much closer to first choice than Flood is for England.

Monye may only be there as the only player who knows how to play chess - a game Lancaster is partial to.

I disagree, but we'll find out if Flood is fit. I think he's 1st choice. Danny will start for the midweekers but could get his place back if he plays well and Dickson and Youngs do not

O'Shea told the Your Local Guardian the status on Care and Monye yesterday, and the attendees at the Quins end of season dinner on Monday, and the press in the post-match press conference on Saturday.

Unless he's lying about expecting them to be fit, he can't do that much more.

Poorfour wrote:O'Shea told the Your Local Guardian the status on Care and Monye yesterday, and the attendees at the Quins end of season dinner on Monday, and the press in the post-match press conference on Saturday.

Unless he's lying about expecting them to be fit, he can't do that much more.

That's totally acceptable, as it was quins who could make the decision on releasing that info.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I disagree, but we'll find out if Flood is fit. I think he's 1st choice. Danny will start for the midweekers but could get his place back if he plays well and Dickson and Youngs do not

I just cannot see Lancaster dropping Farrell. Flood was 3rd choice in the 6Ns - if fit I expect him to be 3rd choice in SA.

Care is a favourite of Lancaster, so unless Youngs does something amazing in 8 days I expect to see Care and Dixon in the match day 22.


Of course I could be 100% wrong

HammerofThunor wrote:Beshocked, you seem to be getting worked up about nothing. Has anyone said that Lancaster shouldn't know Flood's injury status? I'm pretty sure everyone is saying he shouldn't have told the media about it.

And why do you think I'm a Wasp's fan? I'm sure that's happened before.

I thought you talk about Wasps as if they are your side.

Why shouldn't the media know? Cockerill lied about the possibility of Flood in the Leicester-Sarries game. He knew Flood wouldn't be available but continued the charade. It's gamesmanship.

Nathan it's pretty simple - either Flood is fit or he isn't.

Do we know for 100% certain that Flood is now not going to be in the AP final?

What information has Lancaster actually divulged to the public?

We need to know whether Flood is available or not so Cockerill doesn't hoodwink the public again.

beshocked wrote:We need to know whether Flood is available or not so Cockerill doesn't hoodwink the public again.

He didnt hoodwink the public as Mike Ford told the world his son would start. I understand the annoyance of the Sarries game but why would he tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness 10 days before the game? No one has ever been asked to do that before and shouldnt have to, people will know when he announces the team like they do for every other player. Also do you have the same feelings about what happened to Ashton as well being pulled out of the game after being named in the team?

Do you think a team's tactics should also be made available as well? The public have no right to know what team is being produced nor which players are available for selection.

EDIT: I support no club. I support all clubs. I am a domestic rugby nomad. I don't like the players Dai Young is bringing in (lots of Welsh players in seems) but not fair to judge him on this year I suppose due to the injuries/retirement. I generally feel closer to the teams that are producing English players and would like to support Sale as a NW club (this will be easier if Diamond follows through with what he's said and stops the influx of foreign players)

He should tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness because the England coach wants to know whether he's available for England's tour. Perfectly reasonable.

People won't know when he announces the team because Flood might be in the team sheet but magically drop out on the day to be replaced by Ford on the day.

If Ashton did a similar thing that's not right either but I don't know the details of that case.