Richard Cockerill Angry at Lancaster

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http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/164223.html

Richard Cockerill seems vivid at Stuart Lancaster for saying that they will not take Toby Flood on tour if he isn't fit before the leaving date and that they will monitor his progress. These comments were made in regard to questions put to SL from the media at a conference...Cockerill has now refused the england physio to see flood and has gone to the media to say how out of order Lancaster is......

"It's very unhelpful," Cockerill said. "He is on club duty, it's our business and it's not helpful that there is speculation surrounding his fitness. For me it's inappropriate talking about it, just as I wouldn't talk about one of our players while they were on Test duty. It's not my business to do that."

It's a new regime and, in this instance, it's an isolated incident and I think there is no need for it. Stuart wants to build relationships with the press and that is important but the comments about Toby are out of place, really."

Now i have no idea what RC is banging on about...the speculation is already there, everyone already knows that Toby flood is injured as George ford played the semi and everyone is speculating about whether he will be fit to make the final...this is not covert information !! Stu lancaster is planning his trip to SA and his match against the babas and naturally he is going to be asked questions about key personnel...what is he meant to say sorry i can't talk about any players until the club season is over....

Now leicester and cockerill seem to want to make something out of nothing...they did it regarding flood and youngs during the six nations hurling abuse at the England management and now they are doing it again.....I don't understand their mindset....Lancaster had every right to say those things when asked, if Cockerill wants information about floods injury kept secret then the results of the england physio check should be asked to kept under wraps...and that seems fair enough.

It seems twice now Cockerill and leicester are the ones out of order when lancaster seems to be following normal and rational decision making processes..

What do you think ??

HammerofThunor no. That's different.

what about team sheets then? Are they completely pointless?

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Beshocked, you seem to be getting worked up about nothing. Has anyone said that Lancaster shouldn't know Flood's injury status? I'm pretty sure everyone is saying he shouldn't have told the media about it.

And why do you think I'm a Wasp's fan? I'm sure that's happened before.

I thought you talk about Wasps as if they are your side.

Why shouldn't the media know? Cockerill lied about the possibility of Flood in the Leicester-Sarries game. He knew Flood wouldn't be available but continued the charade. It's gamesmanship.

Nathan it's pretty simple - either Flood is fit or he isn't.

Do we know for 100% certain that Flood is now not going to be in the AP final?

What information has Lancaster actually divulged to the public?

What evidence do you have to support your idea that Flood wasn't going to be fit for the carries game? other than Ford senior's comments that were then accounted as a misunderstanding? Not that this has anything to do with this thread as it was about the England physio telling the world about the status of Flood's fitness.

Why do you keep asking if Flood is fit or not? What difference does that make to this thread? People's gripe (and not just Leicester fan's as you want everyone to believe) is that it was information that was public by the wrong people.

Also could you try and answer a few of the questions that people are posing to you before you move onto the next lot of rubbish else we'll be here all year.

beshocked wrote:He should tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness because the England coach wants to know whether he's available for England's tour. Perfectly reasonable.

People won't know when he announces the team because Flood might be in the team sheet but magically drop out on the day to be replaced by Ford on the day.

If Ashton did a similar thing that's not right either but I don't know the details of that case.

Surely the same thing could be resolved with a PRIVATE phone call to Lancaster? Also I dont think you can say that people were unaware of the situation it was well publicised flood was 50/50 and so Cockers put him in the team and its quite reasonable to train with another fly half if your main one is 50/50? I do agree that rumours that he hadnt trained all week did make it look dodgy but there are two sides of this story and one side does make it look completely reasonable and the other not so. But this debate is simply based on hear say.

beshocked wrote:He should tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness because the England coach wants to know whether he's available for England's tour. Perfectly reasonable.

People won't know when he announces the team because Flood might be in the team sheet but magically drop out on the day to be replaced by Ford on the day.

If Ashton did a similar thing that's not right either but I don't know the details of that case.

of course you don't, yet you seem to know all the details about this one involving Leicester????

Why should he tell the public the state of Flood's injury? Calling it a perfectly good reason is just laughable, they do have telephone's, you know to have a conversation in private.

The most interesting thing on this thread was almost finding out which club Thunor supports.

The rest of it all is just a storm in a tea cup really; but it has at least given everyone a chance to vent after what must of been a stressfull week!

yappysnap wrote:The most interesting thing on this thread was almost finding out which club Thunor supports.

The rest of it all is just a storm in a tea cup really; but it has at least given everyone a chance to vent after what must of been a stressfull week!

completely agree, it is all a storm in a tea cup. I suspect it's blown over already.

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Beshocked, you seem to be getting worked up about nothing. Has anyone said that Lancaster shouldn't know Flood's injury status? I'm pretty sure everyone is saying he shouldn't have told the media about it.

And why do you think I'm a Wasp's fan? I'm sure that's happened before.

I thought you talk about Wasps as if they are your side.

Why shouldn't the media know? Cockerill lied about the possibility of Flood in the Leicester-Sarries game. He knew Flood wouldn't be available but continued the charade. It's gamesmanship.

Nathan it's pretty simple - either Flood is fit or he isn't.

Do we know for 100% certain that Flood is now not going to be in the AP final?

What information has Lancaster actually divulged to the public?

What evidence do you have to support your idea that Flood wasn't going to be fit for the carries game? other than Ford senior's comments that were then accounted as a misunderstanding? Not that this has anything to do with this thread as it was about the England physio telling the world about the status of Flood's fitness.

Why do you keep asking if Flood is fit or not? What difference does that make to this thread? People's gripe (and not just Leicester fan's as you want everyone to believe) is that it was information that was public by the wrong people.

Also could you try and answer a few of the questions that people are posing to you before you move onto the next lot of rubbish else we'll be here all year.

Was Flood fit for the Sarries game? NO. Even you could see that clearly - either you saw it live or you could see it on media about the Sarries-Leicester semi. Did Cockerill name him in his team sheet. Yes. Did Ford senior tell the media his son was starting? Yes It's pretty misleading.

What has the England physio shouted to the rooftops? That Flood might not play in the AP final? Every man and his dog already knows that. What has the England physio revealed? Am I missing something obvious?

What questions do you want answering?

I keep questioning why Flood is fit or not because I don't think anyone knows the answer. I thought the England physio's big reveal would be his status but if so what is it?

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:He should tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness because the England coach wants to know whether he's available for England's tour. Perfectly reasonable.

People won't know when he announces the team because Flood might be in the team sheet but magically drop out on the day to be replaced by Ford on the day.

If Ashton did a similar thing that's not right either but I don't know the details of that case.

of course you don't, yet you seem to know all the details about this one involving Leicester????

Why should he tell the public the state of Flood's injury? Calling it a perfectly good reason is just laughable, they do have telephone's, you know to have a conversation in private.

Well of course I do. You were playing my side? Duh. This whole Flood injured or not thing is perfectly linked with the Sarries-Leicester game.

If Saints were playing Sarries,Ashton pulled out then a week later - Mallinder slammed Lancaster in a similar manner then of course I would say a similar thing.

We the fans want to know if Flood will be ready to play in the South African tour. Perfectly reasonable I think. Are you genuinely telling you don't give a damn how long Flood is out for or if he is indeed injured? Odd.

It's not my right to know. Plenty of people want to know if some woman has wrinkly knees but that doesn't mean they have the right. Besides there's no point knowing no anyway. If Flood is fit then he might get injured in the final. This twitter crap seems to have people thinking they should know thing immediately. Sit back and relax. Enjoy the final as a neutral like me

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:He should tell the public the state of his fly half's fitness because the England coach wants to know whether he's available for England's tour. Perfectly reasonable.

People won't know when he announces the team because Flood might be in the team sheet but magically drop out on the day to be replaced by Ford on the day.

If Ashton did a similar thing that's not right either but I don't know the details of that case.

of course you don't, yet you seem to know all the details about this one involving Leicester????

Why should he tell the public the state of Flood's injury? Calling it a perfectly good reason is just laughable, they do have telephone's, you know to have a conversation in private.

Well of course I do. You were playing my side? Duh. This whole Flood injured or not thing is perfectly linked with the Sarries-Leicester game.

If Saints were playing Sarries,Ashton pulled out then a week later - Mallinder slammed Lancaster in a similar manner then of course I would say a similar thing.

We the fans want to know if Flood will be ready to play in the South African tour. Perfectly reasonable I think. Are you genuinely telling you don't give a damn how long Flood is out for or if he is indeed injured? Odd.

or you knew perfectly well about Ashton but choose to remain quite about it because he's going to be at sarries next year.

It is perfectly reasonable, but (and yes i'll go back to this again) it's not england's choice to release that information to the public without the clubs consent.

i also notice you have a lot of issue's with anything that's related to the tigers not he rugby network forums. Geez grow up man.

Beshocked

But its perfectly reasonable for Cockerill not to give a damn about whether the public might be a tad worried, ohh noo!!

The only people that need to know are SL and Cockerill. And Tigers can do their best to get Floody fit without outside pressure of getting him fit for the SA tour and people watching every move they make. I can fully understand why he is annoyed. I have trust that whatever Leicester are doing is the right thing and dont need an update every week for me not to fret about it.

There's an interesting contrast with the massive "is Dan Carter going to be fit enough to kick goals vs Ireland" debate that's been going on in NZ - he's been playing 12 for the Crusaders with Tom Taylor playing 10 and kicking goals (Taylor has been landing around 90% of his kicks anyway). Steve Hansen has been smart enough to say that "Carter should be fit, we'll see what happens", while Blackadder simply doesn't comment. The NZ teams all (except the Highlanders lately as Jamie Joseph is struggling to find 3 fit and unsuspended loose forwards) name their playing XVs 3 days before the atch, with anyone who's doubtful bracketed.

But DC is playing 10 this week, look out Ireland!

Typical kiwi gamesmanship not saying categorically what's going on. Don't we, the public, have right to know!

[NB Said in jest and not meant to reinforce any stereotypical views, even if they are accurate]

Kiwireddevil wrote:There's an interesting contrast with the massive "is Dan Carter going to be fit enough to kick goals vs Ireland" debate that's been going on in NZ - he's been playing 12 for the Crusaders with Tom Taylor playing 10 and kicking goals (Taylor has been landing around 90% of his kicks anyway). Steve Hansen has been smart enough to say that "Carter should be fit, we'll see what happens", while Blackadder simply doesn't comment. The NZ teams all (except the Highlanders lately as Jamie Joseph is struggling to find 3 fit and unsuspended loose forwards) name their playing XVs 3 days before the atch, with anyone who's doubtful bracketed.

But DC is playing 10 this week, look out Ireland!

Diffrence is NZ players are centrally contracted and Super 15 sides are there to serve the national side so Hansen has a greater control compared to Lancaster. Where Leicester employ Flood and have no real interest in the success of England.

Manu's Boxing Coach, from kiwi's post I took that Hansen was saying very little about Carter's fitness and Blackadder was saying nothing. That's the same as what's happening here if Lancaster had just said "Tigers are hoping he's fit for the weekend and we'll see how it goes", which is what he should have said

Lancaster made a mistake, it should have been kept private. I think it has been blown out of proportion though, and a private apology from Lancaster to Cockerill should suffice.

Yeah why cant all clubs just be open and honest like Harel"bloodgate"quins

Lancaster is an inexperienced coach desperate to suck up to the media. We allknew that before this didnt we? This incident may not be the biggest deal in the world but its part of a bigger picture.

HammerofThunor wrote:Manu's Boxing Coach, from kiwi's post I took that Hansen was saying very little about Carter's fitness and Blackadder was saying nothing. That's the same as what's happening here if Lancaster had just said "Tigers are hoping he's fit for the weekend and we'll see how it goes", which is what he should have said

Yep, broadly I think Lancaster shouls have been smart enough to bat the question away, while Cockeril should have kept his toys in the cot, and just had a quiet word. The UK media is bad enough without feeding them ammo.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Manu's Boxing Coach, from kiwi's post I took that Hansen was saying very little about Carter's fitness and Blackadder was saying nothing. That's the same as what's happening here if Lancaster had just said "Tigers are hoping he's fit for the weekend and we'll see how it goes", which is what he should have said

Yep, broadly I think Lancaster shouls have been smart enough to bat the question away, while Cockeril should have kept his toys in the cot, and just had a quiet word. The UK media is bad enough without feeding them ammo.

I know what you mean about the media. I wouldn't exactly say "it's very unhelpful" is slamming someone, nothing like adding a bit of spice!

Let's face it, the British Media are very good at taking a single off the cuff comment and turning it into a major news story.

You think it's bad for rugby, feel for the poor NHS- as soon as you have people with no real expertise reporting on something they don't understand, you will get this effect. It's why I like reading the likes of Moore and Greenwood

robbo277 wrote:Lancaster made a mistake, it should have been kept private. I think it has been blown out of proportion though, and a private apology from Lancaster to Cockerill should suffice.

Agree, Cockerill could have just spoken to Lancaster privately and outlined his grievance.

LondonTiger wrote:Let's face it, the British Media are very good at taking a single off the cuff comment and turning it into a major news story.

They're also pretty good at taking non-existent comments and turning them into major news stories. The numbers of times you see headlines bearing absolutely no relation to what was actually said is amazing.

Storm in a tea cup cockrell needs to grow up very good coach a liability as a publice speeker

I'd assume the England head coach is England head coach all year round...just like Cockerill.... not just for the duration of the International windows.

You could say the English coach, and any International coach, is actually a virtual coach, operating throughout the year in an administrative capacity alongside the club coaches, not someone who steps in with a cough and splutter for his little moments in the sun.

Cockerill is right - it's really little of his business what the International players get up to at International level as he doesn't choose his players from the International selections. It is Lancaster's business to scan over the clubs thoughout the season and keep informed and up to speed on any issues/injuries etc because he DOES choose his players from Cockerill's bunch. He has a vested interest in all Cockerill's English qualified players - Cockerill's professional interest in the English team only extends to his Leicester players involvement in it.

Cockerill seems to be implying he is an equal to Lancaster and I'm afraid in heirarchical terms, he simply isn't.

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume the England head coach is England head coach all year round...just like Cockerill.... not just for the duration of the International windows.

You could say the English coach, and any International coach, is actually a virtual coach, operating throughout the year in an administrative capacity alongside the club coaches, not someone who steps in with a cough and splutter for his little moments in the sun.

Cockerill is right - it's really little of his business what the International players get up to at International level as he doesn't choose his players from the International selections. It is Lancaster's business to scan over the clubs thoughout the season and keep informed and up to speed on any issues/injuries etc because he DOES choose his players from Cockerill's bunch. He has a vested interest in all Cockerill's English qualified players - Cockerill's professional interest in the English team only extends to his Leicester players involvement in it.

Cockerill seems to be implying he is an equal to Lancaster and I'm afraid in heirarchical terms, he simply isn't.

I'm not sure you are at all right - Tigers are Flood's primary employer and much of Lancaster's access to him is down to courtesy. Hence tigers could tell the England physio to go away, when he came with his twitter account to give the media a live up date on Flood's fitness.

Of course Cockerill hasn't said Lancaster shouldn't keep up to date on the fitness of England players. If you read the articles on this it is very clear his objection is to Lancaster making public information he was given as a courtesy for his own use, not to pass on to the media.

you seem to think Lancaster is above Cockerill in terms of "rights" to the players - the simple fact is that the clubs are their employers, not the RFU, and Lancaster would do well to keep that in mind next time he wants to impress his friends in the media.

snoopster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume the England head coach is England head coach all year round...just like Cockerill.... not just for the duration of the International windows.

You could say the English coach, and any International coach, is actually a virtual coach, operating throughout the year in an administrative capacity alongside the club coaches, not someone who steps in with a cough and splutter for his little moments in the sun.

Cockerill is right - it's really little of his business what the International players get up to at International level as he doesn't choose his players from the International selections. It is Lancaster's business to scan over the clubs thoughout the season and keep informed and up to speed on any issues/injuries etc because he DOES choose his players from Cockerill's bunch. He has a vested interest in all Cockerill's English qualified players - Cockerill's professional interest in the English team only extends to his Leicester players involvement in it.

Cockerill seems to be implying he is an equal to Lancaster and I'm afraid in heirarchical terms, he simply isn't.

I'm not sure you are at all right - Tigers are Flood's primary employer and much of Lancaster's access to him is down to courtesy. Hence tigers could tell the England physio to go away, when he came with his twitter account to give the media a live up date on Flood's fitness.

Of course Cockerill hasn't said Lancaster shouldn't keep up to date on the fitness of England players. If you read the articles on this it is very clear his objection is to Lancaster making public information he was given as a courtesy for his own use, not to pass on to the media.

you seem to think Lancaster is above Cockerill in terms of "rights" to the players - the simple fact is that the clubs are their employers, not the RFU, and Lancaster would do well to keep that in mind next time he wants to impress his friends in the media.

Players talk with their feet and all English players who play for English clubs would, I assume again, place English selection over their club careers - ie, if Cockerill makes life difficult for Flood's communications to continue with England head coach then I'm sure Flood wouldn't be adverse to leaving Cockerill for another club when contract times come up. Multiply that with all English players who do or would love to play for England and no, I don't buy the deal that a running, lingering, festering animosity between club coaches and England head coach is good for clubs, good for country or good for the players. The players are the people the coaches want, and in truth, they [ the players]control their own destiny in the long term not the club coaches. You say Lancaster should and could have kept his mouth shut...well, I reckon that's a lesson Cockerill would have a tough time following himself?

SecretFly wrote:I'd assume the England head coach is England head coach all year round...just like Cockerill.... not just for the duration of the International windows.

You could say the English coach, and any International coach, is actually a virtual coach, operating throughout the year in an administrative capacity alongside the club coaches, not someone who steps in with a cough and splutter for his little moments in the sun.

Cockerill is right - it's really little of his business what the International players get up to at International level as he doesn't choose his players from the International selections. It is Lancaster's business to scan over the clubs thoughout the season and keep informed and up to speed on any issues/injuries etc because he DOES choose his players from Cockerill's bunch. He has a vested interest in all Cockerill's English qualified players - Cockerill's professional interest in the English team only extends to his Leicester players involvement in it.

Cockerill seems to be implying he is an equal to Lancaster and I'm afraid in heirarchical terms, he simply isn't.

also should point out for what seems like the 1089th time in this thread. Cockerill wasn't throwing dummy out of the pram because lancaster was asking about injuries, he did because it was publicised on twitter.

nathan wrote:
also should point out for what seems like the 1089th time in this thread. Cockerill wasn't throwing dummy out of the pram because lancaster was asking about injuries, he did because it was publicised on twitter.

Or maybe Cockerill just don't like Twitter?...and I'm kinda with him on that one! Didn't he ban all that Twittering and Facebooking when a player was jabbering about an injury a few years ago. So maybe it's just a vendetta against the waffle sites and as I say, I'm supporting his campaign on that one.

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:
also should point out for what seems like the 1089th time in this thread. Cockerill wasn't throwing dummy out of the pram because lancaster was asking about injuries, he did because it was publicised on twitter.

Or maybe Cockerill just don't like Twitter?...and I'm kinda with him on that one! Didn't he ban all that Twittering and Facebooking when a player was jabbering about an injury a few years ago. So maybe it's just a vendetta against the waffle sites and as I say, I'm supporting his campaign on that one.

lol, i'm not sure about the whole twitter thing. Can't remember it, but my memory is pretty rubbish!

SecretFly wrote:Players talk with their feet and all English players who play for English clubs would, I assume again, place English selection over their club careers - ie, if Cockerill makes life difficult for Flood's communications to continue with England head coach then I'm sure Flood wouldn't be adverse to leaving Cockerill for another club when contract times come up. Multiply that with all English players who do or would love to play for England and no, I don't buy the deal that a running, lingering, festering animosity between club coaches and England head coach is good for clubs, good for country or good for the players. The players are the people the coaches want, and in truth, they [ the players]control their own destiny in the long term not the club coaches. You say Lancaster should and could have kept his mouth shut...well, I reckon that's a lesson Cockerill would have a tough time following himself?

I would imagine that most players are aware of who pays them - they will have divided loyalty between their club and country, I doubt if it would end up as just Tigers vs England without other clubs being caught up in it as they're all pretty touchy on the deal over EPS players. I don't think it would work well for either side to badly sour the relationship but I think it would be a mistake to assume Tigers would be the losers if Lancaster does keep over stepping the mark in his access to players.

I agree that Cockerill could do with learning when to zip it as well - I think he has learnt and is trying to though he does have a way to go. Hopefully Lancaster will do the same as well and leave it for the clubs to manager their own media work, I'm sure the press won't love him less for not providing them with insider gossip.

SecretFly wrote:Or maybe Cockerill just don't like Twitter?...and I'm kinda with him on that one! Didn't he ban all that Twittering and Facebooking when a player was jabbering about an injury a few years ago. So maybe it's just a vendetta against the waffle sites and as I say, I'm supporting his campaign on that one.

I think he tore a strip of Crane for tweeting injury updates which is probably what you are thinking of. I think he's pretty set on the club being the media's source of information on club business and not gossip from other sources.

snoopster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Players talk with their feet and all English players who play for English clubs would, I assume again, place English selection over their club careers - ie, if Cockerill makes life difficult for Flood's communications to continue with England head coach then I'm sure Flood wouldn't be adverse to leaving Cockerill for another club when contract times come up. Multiply that with all English players who do or would love to play for England and no, I don't buy the deal that a running, lingering, festering animosity between club coaches and England head coach is good for clubs, good for country or good for the players. The players are the people the coaches want, and in truth, they [ the players]control their own destiny in the long term not the club coaches. You say Lancaster should and could have kept his mouth shut...well, I reckon that's a lesson Cockerill would have a tough time following himself?

I would imagine that most players are aware of who pays them - they will have divided loyalty between their club and country, I doubt if it would end up as just Tigers vs England without other clubs being caught up in it as they're all pretty touchy on the deal over EPS players. I don't think it would work well for either side to badly sour the relationship but I think it would be a mistake to assume Tigers would be the losers if Lancaster does keep over stepping the mark in his access to players.

I agree that Cockerill could do with learning when to zip it as well - I think he has learnt and is trying to though he does have a way to go. Hopefully Lancaster will do the same as well and leave it for the clubs to manager their own media work, I'm sure the press won't love him less for not providing them with insider gossip.

i think Cockerill has learnt, the worst his comments got were "it's very unhelpful". Hardly slamming Lancaster like has been reported.

I actually like Cockerill...and his lip. I wouldn't want him to button it. He's a character. Always reminds me of a character out of Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - a tough talkin' street smart mover, wheeler dealer. I think he loves to bark and play up to the image both of himself and of his teak tough Leicester players. Rugby needs all sorts - the quiet accomodating ones and the blunt and brash ones.