The Non HC Final thread - Who wants Lager when you can have BITTER?

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss all things rugby related, apart from the HC Final.

Why I hear you ask?

Because the Competition is structured wrong and gives some teams an unfair advantage, this is my view and it won’t change until the structure is changed.

The HC is devalued as it is.

But I accept some fans will want to discuss it so I ask them to respect the F A C T that some rugby fans don't!

[Smirnoffpriest]

But lets face it what else is there to do in Llanelli?

Ouch you walked into that one

And Bath could double their capacity and still sell out most weeks.

So you're telling me that a Big club with huge amounts of history in a city, competing in a competition which far exceeds the HEC is struggling to get more fans than a newly created (in your words) 'mess of a soon to be bankrupt' region in a town where there's nothing to do, who compete in 2 joke competitions.

My God when you put it like that Hersh - Bath really are doing badly - they might have to do some work getting better fans

[HERSH]

Since when have we been struggling to attract fans?

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Since when have we been struggling to attract fans?

Must be a right old scramble for tickets over there.

[HERSH]

It is Jen, it is.

[Smirnoffpriest]

Since when have we been struggling to attract fans?

Well if we're a really badly supported Welsh region who are barely getting any fans (which you've alluded to in previous posts) but we're catching up to your avg attendance, then surely you in a very good competition in a big city with the excitement of relegation and HEC spots should be racking in many more fans than a badly supported Welsh region who play in a Mikey Mouse league and a 'plastic' cup competition...

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Since when have we been struggling to attract fans?

Well if we're a really badly supported Welsh region who are barely getting any fans (which you've alluded to in previous posts) but we're catching up to your avg attendance, then surely you in a very good competition in a big city with the excitement of relegation and HEC spots should be racking in many more fans than a badly supported Welsh region who play in a Mikey Mouse league and a 'plastic' cup competition...

Wait. Bath is a big city? Did I visit the "Guliver's travels" version?

[HERSH]

I think his confused with Bristol.

[HERSH]

Its an easy mistake to make when you cross the Severn bridge.

[HERSH]

But hey I won't hold it against him, to be fair the Scarlet's are the best supported Region, but lets not kid ourselves they not a true region just an extension of Llanelli Rugby Club.

[Smirnoffpriest]

I'm comparing Bath to Llanelli and in comparison it's a lot bigger than Llanelli. (I'm doing a comparison because according to Hersh all English clubs are doing great and are making a profit in the Best competition in the UK - while, again according to Hersh, the Welsh regions get barely a soul supporting them and are about to go bankrupt.

And Hersh - try telling all the Scarlets fans from Pemborke, Milford Haven, Carmarthen, Llandovery... ect that it's just Llanelli RFC

[HammerofThunor]

Well Bath has a population that is half that of just Camarthenshire and they've been bursting at the seems of their 10000-12000 seater stadium for years. Not the best comparison to make. You'd have been better off saying London has a population 30 million but Sarries only have 3 fans

[Smirnoffpriest]

Well Bath has a population that is half that of just Camarthenshire and they've been bursting at the seems of their 10000-12000 seater stadium for years. Not the best comparison to make. You'd have been better off saying London has a population 30 million but Sarries only have 3 fans

Yes but according to Hersh Scarlets are just Llanelli - I'm not trying to make a serious point - I'm just using Hersh' ridiculous claims back at him.

He's claimed that 1. Welsh regions get no fans. 2. The AV is the best comp in the UK. 3. the Pro12 is a Mikey Mouse league. 4. The Scarlets are just Llanelli RFC 5. Llanelli is a small town. 6. the AV offers constant excitement due to fears of relegation combined with hopes of HEC rugby 7. That all English clubs make money.

I was just using those ridiculous claims back at him to show how ridiculous they are and that if all of the above is true then Bath should be doing a lot better than the Scarlets...

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I never had my head around how small Llanelli is.

Bath has a pop in between Galway and Limerick (Bigger than I thought)

Llanelli has a pop in between Dundalk and Waterford (Smaller than I thought)

I know you English and Welsh guys have feck all clue what I'm on about. But it makes sense to me.

[Feckless Rogue]

Does anyone actually want Europe to split? Does anyone want to see an Anglo/French cup without anyone else? Do the English and French really, deep down, want Celtic and Italian rugby to be financially ruined?

The English and French will jostle for their position and make their threats. The PRO12 will have to give ground, but at the end of the day they have 4 unions and more votes.

It'll be interesting to see what happens because the Heineken Cup is the best competition in the world in my opinion. And I thought that back when English and French team dominated it. I wouldn't want it to change to much.

[HammerofThunor]

Does anyone actually want Europe to split? Does anyone want to see an Anglo/French cup without anyone else? Do the English and French really, deep down, want Celtic and Italian rugby to be financially ruined?

I do. I've always enjoyed the rivalry with the French. That's the big one for me. After all we've been under their opressive monachy for nearly 950 years. Adds a bit of spice.

The English and French will jostle for their position and make their threats. The PRO12 will have to give ground, but at the end of the day they have 4 unions and more votes.

It'll be interesting to see what happens because the Heineken Cup is the best competition in the world in my opinion. And I thought that back when English and French team dominated it. I wouldn't want it to change to much.

The votes mean nothing as the French and English have pulled out. A new agreement will be done and the number of shares, etc will be done again. I personally think the English premeirship competiton is the best in the world because it contains the top English clubs. But I'm a selfish Bar Steward

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I do. I've always enjoyed the rivalry with the French. That's the big one for me. After all we've been under their opressive monachy for nearly 950 years. Adds a bit of spice.

Like that. Normandy only existed for 150 years before they began oppressing you poor Anglo Saxons though. So It is a bit of a stretch to still consider them French. (when they are actually from Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha now)

I personally think the English premeirship competiton is the best in the world because it contains the top English clubs. But I'm a selfish Bar Steward

Comedy gold!

[HammerofThunor]

I do. I've always enjoyed the rivalry with the French. That's the big one for me. After all we've been under their opressive monachy for nearly 950 years. Adds a bit of spice.

Like that. Normandy only existed for 150 years before they began oppressing you poor Anglo Saxons though. So It is a bit of a stretch to still consider them French. (when they are actually from Herzogtum Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha now)

All related to William the Bar Steward

I personally think the English premeirship competiton is the best in the world because it contains the top English clubs. But I'm a selfish Bar Steward

Comedy gold!

Sorry forgot opinions were frowned upon. After all competitions involving the mighty Irish, the English Premiership is the competition I most prefer to watch and follow (which I wrongly referred to as the 'best' from my point of view. Bad Þunor no supper for you tonight. The Ladyboy has spoken).

[HammerofThunor]

Also, not sure what the relevance of them living in France for only 150 years has to do with anything. Surely that's long enough for residency in anyones book!

[Biltong]

For fairness the answer is have the tournament go straight into knockouts.

1 English
1 Irish
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 Welsh
1 French
1 extra from HEC winner league
1 extra from Amlin winner league

No calims of favouritism then.

Kinda like a six nations, with two spares.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Also, not sure what the relevance of them living in France for only 150 years has to do with anything. Surely that's long enough for residency in anyones book!

True enough.

We all think the league our team play in is "the best in the world" no harm in that.

The French comp has a history nearly as long as the 6N, The Premiership can be traced to the 70s or 80s.

Our league is so young and the complication of having Welsh Regions that have never been fully accepted in Wales, and Italian and Scottish teams in our League, dilutes it a bit, so it is no surprise that we "favour the HC"

The Rabo has still come a long way in it's short life. Let's see what happens in the next 9 years.

[HERSH]

Smirnoffpriest "He's claimed that"

1. Welsh regions get no fans.

A. Having been to some games and watched a lot on tv am I wrong?


2. The AV is the best comp in the UK.

A. I never said that, but it is the best league in Europe. the best comp is the 6 nations


3. the Pro12 is a Mikey Mouse league.

A. It is, some teams look like they don't care whether they win or not.


4. The Scarlets are just Llanelli RFC

A.They are.


5. Llanelli is a small town.

A. It is.


6. the AV offers constant excitement due to fears of relegation combined with hopes of HEC rugby

A. Correct once again, just ask any exeter supporters


7. That all English clubs make money.

A. Most do due to the fantastic support they get.


Thanks for agree with me

[HammerofThunor]

To be honest I really used to enjoy watching the Celtic league while I was living in Swansea (2006-2008) and supporting the Ospreys (didn't have Sky and the games were on BBC). Once I moved back to England and got sky (and later ESPN and dropped Sky) I started watching the premiership. Now I get very bored watching the PRO12 (nothing to do with quality, I can't get into S15 or T14 either).

[thebluesmancometh]

HERSHyboy

1. Scarlets were 3rd best supported club in the Rabo last season, and all average attendances were above 6500 this season (mickey mouse league only) Noone? REALLY?

2. The Top 14 is far superior in just about every way to the AP. Yet the best teams are all in the Mickey mouse league.

3. The mickey mouse league is structured toward the HC and national teams success, how have the Rabo teams done in those comps recently?

4. Llanelli RFC were criticised last seasons prem final for fielding 3 regional players, who had in all 12 appearances between them. Totally different playing squad!

5. Llanelli is a small town, yet a huge region!

6. AP constant excitement? I am considering suing the AP for crimes against rugby, there have been some pearlers of games, however some of the dross served up outside of the few big games is unbeleivable, see any Leicester game first half, any Gloucester game 2nd half, and every Bath game except Donalds debut and 1 other.

7. Unless I'm wrong, there is 1 or maybe 2 clubs who made a profit last season??


Why you feel the need to comment on Welsh rugby when you are so ignorant to everything welsh just astounds me!

[thebluesmancometh]

You are like a nun giving advice on lapdancing!!!

[HammerofThunor]

Kinky!

[Morgannwg]

I'm looking forward to watching the Heineken Cup final tomorrow.

[HammerofThunor]

Wrong thread. Stay on topic. We're on stripper nuns now.

[GunsGerms]

English and French teams weren't complaining when they were dominating Europe. Rules are the same now as they were then. Don't blame the rules blame your own shortcomings, take the finger out and work out how to be the best again.

If Northamption can come within 30 mins of being champions then any decent team that goes on a run can if they get the mix right.

[HammerofThunor]

I'm getting bored of saying this now but when England and France were dominating the HEC the PRO12 didn't exist or had just been form so that's irrelevant. They also want to change things in 2007 just before the Irish became rugby gods.

[GunsGerms]

Course it did it was formed in 2001. Sour grapes.

[Smirnoffpriest]

Smirnoffpriest "He's claimed that"

1. Welsh regions get no fans.

A. Having been to some games and watched a lot on tv am I wrong?

Retort - Even though I've just showed you (on a few times on this thread) that the Scarlets avg attendance is only slightly lower than Baths

2. The AV is the best comp in the UK.

A. I never said that, but it is the best league in Europe. the best comp is the 6 nations

R The best club competition, stop being pedantic

3. the Pro12 is a Mikey Mouse league.

A. It is, some teams look like they don't care whether they win or not.
Strange seeing as the teams this claim is generally leveled at are also the ones who consistently finish highly in the league - seems like they care enough to keep winning

4. The Scarlets are just Llanelli RFC

A.They are.

R - As I said previously we have fans from all over our region - try telling them we're only Llanelli RFC. We also market, advertise and reach out to all different clubs within the Scarlets region, hence our attendances are growing

5. Llanelli is a small town.

A. It is.
R - I know it is a small town, thank you for agreeing, it has much less population than Bath, but has only a smaller avg attendance

6. the AV offers constant excitement due to fears of relegation combined with hopes of HEC rugby

A. Correct once again, just ask any exeter supporters
Even though most teams who fight out relegation seem to be the same candidates, the same times seem to finish in the top 3 and the same seem to miss out on HEC rugby/just qualify - except for exceptional times like Wasps this year, or Exeter

7. That all English clubs make money.

A. Most do due to the fantastic support they get.
Even though there's financial reports out saying that most of them are in debt?

Thanks for agree with me

But I've said this once already on this thread and you generally ignore most of these points and I'm sure you will again on this thread, but there we are

[HERSH]

Help!

Richmond's been invaded by leprechauns

[Feckless Rogue]

The English used to dominate through out and out physical domination. Yes they did run in tries AFTER their pack had beaten the opposition into a pulp.

What has changed is that the Irish have become more professional and more physical and can match the English up front. When they can't physically dominate them then what's plan B? They don't have one, and that's the English clubs problem. It's nothing to do with structural unfairness. Utter nonsense and a pathetic excuse.

When the English used to beat the Irish, did the Irish ask for the rules to be changed? No, they studied the English and got better. Munster in a way modelled themselves on the likes of Tigers. The team that once whinged about the hand of Back become the masters of the "dark arts".

In recent years Leinster have taken it to another level. They're matching the best English and French clubs in the set piece, they're beating them at the breakdown, getting quicker ball and they're using the quick ball more like a Super 15 side than a European one. There's nothing unfair about it. They're just better now.

The main problem for England and France now is, I hate to say it, arrogance. Are they showing any intention of trying to replicate or even surpass the way Leinster play? No.

"Those Irish couldn't possibly be better than us, there must be something wrong with the tournament. Yes, that explains it. Let's change the rules".

[HammerofThunor]

And why were they calling for the changes in 2007 when the Irish WEREN'T winning? Arrogance then as well?

Nice to see lazy stereotypes are alive and well.

[GunsGerms]

By 07 two Irish teams had the Heineken cup with another in 08 and 09. Presumably the moaning began because Munster were doing well and Leinster were regulars in the semis.

[Brendan]

Am I right in saying that tigers are transforming before our eyes and in two years will be the match of Leinster.

Tigers are scoring more tries and running much more. Quinn are the same. Leinster are just the team in front at the moment. Cmount are not far off the backs of Leinster either.

I think that more teams are going down the S15 style but keeping the monster pack that is all NH and SA rugby

[HammerofThunor]

Tigers have been doing that for years. They're generally the top try scorers (especially since Flood replaced Goode and will continue with Ford as backup rather than Goode-lite Staunton)

[Feckless Rogue]

Yes Clermont are a hairs breath away from Leinster. Quins are playing attacking rugby. And Tigers are scoring tries. That's what I hope happens. That the English and French surpass the high standard Leinster have set and lay down the gauntlet to the Celt's to raise their standards even further. That's the only way that Europe will collectively creep up to match and beat SANZAR. Together. That's why cross border competition is important and shouldn't be torn apart by greedy clubs.

The clubs throwing their weight around isn't a new thing. They weren't in the 99 HC. Can't remember why. Probably over money issues. They're private business's and will always be concerned with improving their financial standing.

But what has changed is that the Irish are reigning supreme in the domestic game. So the clubs are, as always, trying to push their own self interests. But are now also dressing it up as some benign wish for fairness, which helpfully for their brands, also pushes the notion the Irish are only beating them in an underhanded, unfair way.

The thing is, I know Leinster would prosper under any new setup. I'm not worried about that. But I really do believe that the unions should be in charge of the games structure, not the clubs, because they'll take us down the route football went. A few rich clubs, buying glory. People in Cardiff, Glasgow and Rome wearing Toulouse and Leicester jerseys, because they have everyone else's best players. That's where the clubs will bring us because that is exactly what they want.

What I want rugby to be is mostly home grown squads representing their own local people. I want teams to rise and fall on the merits of the skills of the players they produce not the size of their wallet. Like Wasps and Munster have. They deserved their silverware when they had it but nobody stays on top forever. Leinster won't either. And I want all 6 nations involved, so they can all raise the standards of rugby together and every nation can have domestic teams to support at Europe's top table.

The English have to look at their own setup and stop meddling in how other nations do things. The fact that the clubs want to break up 6 nation cross border domestic rugby if they don't get their way, proves that we shouldn't allow them to call the shots. They'll sell rugby's soul and financially destroy the smaller, weaker nations if they get the chance.

[HammerofThunor]

Whatever dude

[Feckless Rogue]

Whatever dude

Does that mean I win?

Or does it mean I'm talking gibberish?

[sugarNspikes]

The English have to look at their own setup and stop meddling in how other nations do things.

But it's what we do best. There's so system so perfect that can't be improved by a bit of English meddling

[mankiaow]

Whatever dude

Does that mean I win?

Or does it mean I'm talking gibberish?

Sounds like you won hands down to me.

Great points, well made.

[HERSH]

Thank god the HC is over, what a mismatch that was, well done Leinster.

But the HC needs restructuring and soon.

[HammerofThunor]

Whatever dude

Does that mean I win?

Or does it mean I'm talking gibberish?

The closest I can come to crowning you king

[Cardiff Dave]

4. The Scarlets are just Llanelli RFC

A.They are.

Shock, horror probe hold the front page, not arf mister.
Wish Cardiff Blues would play in their club colours with their club badge and nickname as the Scarlets do.
It would end the regionalism Ponty rubbish at a stroke. Cardiff have had nearly 9 years of pretending and it hasn't worked and never looked like working either, so what is the point especially now when Ponty are actively campaigning for a valleys regional thing of their own. As the chief exec of Cardiff said in 2003, "with regards us joining with Pontypridd, it's an absolute nonsense".

[SecretFly]

Mismatches are something that happen when the best side plays rugby, Hersh

There - and I didn't mention either the winners, losers or the name of the competition once - unlike the guy who don't want to discuss it......!

[Smirnoffpriest]

4. The Scarlets are just Llanelli RFC

A.They are.

Shock, horror probe hold the front page, not arf mister.
Wish Cardiff Blues would play in their club colours with their club badge and nickname as the Scarlets do.
It would end the regionalism Ponty rubbish at a stroke. Cardiff have had nearly 9 years of pretending and it hasn't worked and never looked like working either, so what is the point especially now when Ponty are actively campaigning for a valleys regional thing of their own. As the chief exec of Cardiff said in 2003, "with regards us joining with Pontypridd, it's an absolute nonsense".

How did Cardiff Blues pretend to be a region?

[Morgannwg]

Thank god the HC is over, what a mismatch that was, well done Leinster.

But the HC needs restructuring and soon.

Restructuring so that can avoid Irish sides maybe? Or restructured so they get 5 points from being thrashed by 50 odd points?

[tecphobe]

Yes Clermont are a hairs breath away from Leinster. Quins are playing attacking rugby. And Tigers are scoring tries. That's what I hope happens. That the English and French surpass the high standard Leinster have set and lay down the gauntlet to the Celt's to raise their standards even further. That's the only way that Europe will collectively creep up to match and beat SANZAR. Together. That's why cross border competition is important and shouldn't be torn apart by greedy clubs.

The clubs throwing their weight around isn't a new thing. They weren't in the 99 HC. Can't remember why. Probably over money issues. They're private business's and will always be concerned with improving their financial standing.

But what has changed is that the Irish are reigning supreme in the domestic game. So the clubs are, as always, trying to push their own self interests. But are now also dressing it up as some benign wish for fairness, which helpfully for their brands, also pushes the notion the Irish are only beating them in an underhanded, unfair way.

The thing is, I know Leinster would prosper under any new setup. I'm not worried about that. But I really do believe that the unions should be in charge of the games structure, not the clubs, because they'll take us down the route football went. A few rich clubs, buying glory. People in Cardiff, Glasgow and Rome wearing Toulouse and Leicester jerseys, because they have everyone else's best players. That's where the clubs will bring us because that is exactly what they want.

What I want rugby to be is mostly home grown squads representing their own local people. I want teams to rise and fall on the merits of the skills of the players they produce not the size of their wallet. Like Wasps and Munster have. They deserved their silverware when they had it but nobody stays on top forever. Leinster won't either. And I want all 6 nations involved, so they can all raise the standards of rugby together and every nation can have domestic teams to support at Europe's top table.

The English have to look at their own setup and stop meddling in how other nations do things. The fact that the clubs want to break up 6 nation cross border domestic rugby if they don't get their way, proves that we shouldn't allow them to call the shots. They'll sell rugby's soul and financially destroy the smaller, weaker nations if they get the chance.

agree times 100,000

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