The Non HC Final thread - Who wants Lager when you can have BITTER?

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss all things rugby related, apart from the HC Final.

Why I hear you ask?

Because the Competition is structured wrong and gives some teams an unfair advantage, this is my view and it won’t change until the structure is changed.

The HC is devalued as it is.

But I accept some fans will want to discuss it so I ask them to respect the F A C T that some rugby fans don't!

[HERSH]

At the end of the day there is no HC without England or France so changes will happen sooner or later, about time IMO.

But that’s enough about the plastic HC, IMO it's over hyped and meaningless in real rugby terms and has been for a few years, but enjoy the final and more importantly enjoy the over priced

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Define Greatness?

Surely winning the unbalanced, poorly structured HC doesn’t make a side great?

For me a great side proves themselves domestically and against the best in Europe.

Toulouse, the Leicester Tigers 2002/3 side, Dallagios Wasps, Munster pre 09, Leinster post 09 , Clermont.

There are no English clubs of this calibre right now hence they are not in the final.

The bar is being raised every year so rather than making excuses maybe these great English clubs should start stepping up to the challenge laid down by the likes of Leinster and Clermont.

Ahh but you forget the Rabo isn't a 'proper' competition and Leinseter basically get a bye to the final of the HEC each year. And it's not fare to compare English clubs with French clubs because of the salary cap!

Hmmm. We could be really mean and compare the NZ franchises with English clubs - The NZ sides have stronger teams on lower budgets, and can still draw a decent crowd in the UK with only 2 weeks notice

[red_stag]

RTE News announces that the Irish provinces have disbanded as a gesture of goodwill to England. The news comes after intense debate surrounding the notion of fair play and the Irish monopolising success.

"We now realise that as the English and French are unwilling to help themselves to improve we must lower our standards in the interest of fairness", an IRFU spokesperson says.

Competiton for places in next seasons's Heineken Cup is set to be fierce an the 4 Irish places will go to St Marys RFC, Clontarf RFC, Cork Constitution and Young Munsters.

"Its unfortunate but our only other alternatives was to bring Tomas O'Leary back from England and play him in every Heineken Cup match. Its the only other way to handicap ourselves as much", the spokesmanwent onto say

[red_stag]

At the end of the day there is no HC without England

You'll never convince Ulster of that Hersh

#ERC1999

[caoimhincentre]

RTE News announces that the Irish provinces have disbanded as a gesture of goodwill to England. The news comes after intense debate surrounding the notion of fair play and the Irish monopolising success.

"We now realise that as the English and French are unwilling to help themselves to improve we must lower our standards in the interest of fairness", an IRFU spokesperson says.

Competiton for places in next seasons's Heineken Cup is set to be fierce an the 4 Irish places will go to St Marys RFC, Clontarf RFC, Cork Constitution and Young Munsters.

"Its unfortunate but our only other alternatives was to bring Tomas O'Leary back from England and play him in every Heineken Cup match. Its the only other way to handicap ourselves as much", the spokesmanwent onto say

great to hear. the english teams may now competitive in the HC. no longer will they seem average and useless

[red_stag]

Caoimhin, there is actually a rumour that the Irish clubs (mainly the rubbishy Ulster ones) will appeal to the English clubs to drop out of the ERC and to be replaced by English pub teams. These pub teams will then appeal to the French to play underage squads and the French kids teams will then call on the Welsh to keep regional rugby going please please please as the regions its about the same level as the rest of the above . . . . . . .!!!!!

[caoimhincentre]

Caoimhin, there is actually a rumour that the Irish clubs (mainly the rubbishy Ulster ones) will appeal to the English clubs to drop out of the ERC and to be replaced by English pub teams. These pub teams will then appeal to the French to play underage squads and the French kids teams will then call on the Welsh to keep regional rugby going please please please as the regions its about the same level as the rest of the above . . . . . . .!!!!!

What a prospect

[HammerofThunor]

I don't know why all the Irish are getting knickers in a knot. All the recommended changes would just mean a couple of the worst sides in the PRO12 wouldn't qualify.

Unless people think that the easy qualification means that teams aren't trying and if they had try in the PRO12 to gain qualification it would be harder to the Irish provinces to stay in the top half. But since teams don't treat the PRO12 as a training comp that shouldn't be a problem should it?

So all the recommended changes wouldn't change the situation with the Provinces (except Connacht) and therefore they've got nothing to do with Irish success. This is even more obvious when you consider similar changes were recommended in 2007 when only Munster had won a proper HEC ( ).

I can't believe the arrogance of some Irish posters. What are you? English?

[asoreleftshoulder]

I don't know why all the Irish are getting knickers in a knot. All the recommended changes would just mean a couple of the worst sides in the PRO12 wouldn't qualify.

Unless people think that the easy qualification means that teams aren't trying and if they had try in the PRO12 to gain qualification it would be harder to the Irish provinces to stay in the top half. But since teams don't treat the PRO12 as a training comp that shouldn't be a problem should it?

So all the recommended changes wouldn't change the situation with the Provinces (except Connacht) and therefore they've got nothing to do with Irish success. This is even more obvious when you consider similar changes were recommended in 2007 when only Munster had won a proper HEC ( ).

I can't believe the arrogance of some Irish posters. What are you? English?

It's probably because we don't want to see Scottish and Italian clubs missing out on the HC just so that the bigger clubs get more money.

[Brendan]

If NZ could do regional rugby then any country can go from club to region were some teams just change names and get some better players such as the midland tigers

[red_stag]

I can't believe the arrogance of some Irish posters. What are you? English?

A great one liner

Ah no seriously I just dont want to see Italian and Scottish teams denied places. I also don't like being told by France and English pundits that our system is somehow unfair. We organised a system to achieve our goals and rather than teams trying to better their ones the implication is that we should change what we do to disadvantage ourselves. Its ridiculous. The most ridiculous IMO is that England are simply hitting a dry spell and will have clubs winning again in no time.

[Smirnoffpriest]

I don't know why all the Irish are getting knickers in a knot. All the recommended changes would just mean a couple of the worst sides in the PRO12 wouldn't qualify.

Unless people think that the easy qualification means that teams aren't trying and if they had try in the PRO12 to gain qualification it would be harder to the Irish provinces to stay in the top half. But since teams don't treat the PRO12 as a training comp that shouldn't be a problem should it?

So all the recommended changes wouldn't change the situation with the Provinces (except Connacht) and therefore they've got nothing to do with Irish success. This is even more obvious when you consider similar changes were recommended in 2007 when only Munster had won a proper HEC ( ).

I can't believe the arrogance of some Irish posters. What are you? English?

It's probably because we don't want to see Scottish and Italian clubs missing out on the HC just so that the bigger clubs get more money.

It could also have something to do with the fact that some fans want each country to have a guarenteed representation in the comp - just like England and France do - but some English fans think it would be fairer to have English representation - 6, France - 6, Irish 1 maybe 3, Welsh 1, Scotland 0 maybe 1, Italy 0 maybe 1.

I can kinda understand why England would want that - I mean as long as they beat the French then an English side should win the competition almost every year. Sounds perfectly fair and balanced to me

[ScarletSpiderman]

For fairness the answer is have the tournament go straight into knockouts.

1 English
1 Irish
1 Scottish
1 Italian
1 Welsh
1 French
1 extra from HEC winner league
1 extra from Amlin winner league

No calims of favouritism then.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Don't worry. When English teams start winning in Europe again it will be because they have been made strong by their competitive league and the fact that they have relegation to contend with.

At the moment they are only losing in Europe because they.........have a competitive league and they have relegation to contend with.

[Notch]

I don't know why all the Irish are getting knickers in a knot. All the recommended changes would just mean a couple of the worst sides in the PRO12 wouldn't qualify.

It's probably because we don't want to see Scottish and Italian clubs missing out on the HC just so that the bigger clubs get more money.

To be honest, that's it. People think it's bad for neutral the rest of Europe because we have an all-Ireland final- and I have some sympathy with that, because it is a bit dull when it's a derby match if you're not from that country. Now imagine a Heineken Cup where you have multiple all-English or all-French clashes in the groups. It would be less diverse and more dull.

I've got no real problems with merit based qualification but there are certain red lines. The number of teams from any nation must not exceed 8 and the minimum representation of any side in the Six Nations must not be less than 1.

What the French want to happen is to essentially cut the Heineken Cup to 20 teams so they can expand the Top14... and they want the Celtic Nations to be the ones that lose their places. They want a smaller tournament with the same representation. The English will go along with it because they are not being successful right now.

The reforms that are on the table are based on self-interest masquerading as corinthian values.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Don't worry. When English teams start winning in Europe again it will be because they have been made strong by their competitive league and the fact that they have relegation to contend with.

At the moment they are only losing in Europe because they.........have a competitive league and they have relegation to contend with.

Yeah the Rabo teams are benefited by the fact there are no meaningful games in the Rabo, and the key players only get feilded in the HEC which allows them to rest up (whilst the Irish are on top). However the Rabo teams are hindered by the fact there are no meaningful games in the Rabo, and the key players only get feilded in the HEC which stops them from getting any match fitness (whilst the English are on top). And the French have so much money to throw around they are buying success (whilst the French are on top).

[Feckless Rogue]

I propose that England and France dramatically reduce their population so they have a similar player base and ability to generate funds as the Celtic teams. At the moment their sheer size is giving them an unfair advantage. I think England has a population of about 50 million. So if they forceably emigrate about 44 million people then that will bring them into line with Ireland. This will make the HC more merit based instead of England and France having a huge advantage in sheer weight of players, teams and cash.

The Welsh and Scottish should all convert to Catholicism. With a ban on contraception their player numbers should increase to a similar level as Ireland's in no time. This will also ensure that all their players can play on Sunday. Then finally we can have a level playing field.

[HammerofThunor]

Thye also wanted the changes in 2007 when there were 3 English clubs in the semis and 2 in the final. They feel the money are unequally distributed compared with it's generation. Which it almost certainly is (without details from sponsors, Sky subsciption records and registeration details, etc, that is completely made up).

I don't like most of what English pundits say it doesn't go about complaining that Stuart Barnes is scared of me. Just that he's another corporate tool (in more ways than one). Actually, I just remembered he's Welsh because he went to a Welsh school. Scrap that, Dewi Morris Akford? (I don't know who's been saying this stuff specifically) then instead.

BTW There have been plenty of non-English fans saying the PRO12 would be better with qualificaton by position so don't try and make this out as a purely English thing.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I propose that England and France dramatically reduce their population so they have a similar player base and ability to generate funds as the Celtic teams. At the moment their sheer size is giving them an unfair advantage. I think England has a population of about 50 million. So if they forceably emigrate about 44 million people then that will bring them into line with Ireland. This will make the HC more merit based instead of England and France having a huge advantage in sheer weight of players, teams and cash.

The Welsh and Scottish should all convert to Catholicism. With a ban on contraception their player numbers should increase to a similar level as Ireland's in no time. This will also ensure that all their players can play on Sunday. Then finally we can have a level playing field.

[asoreleftshoulder]

BTW There have been plenty of non-English fans saying the PRO12 would be better with qualificaton by position so don't try and make this out as a purely English thing.

The Pro 12 might be improved by it but the HC certainly wouldn't.It was initially set up as a competition to allow the top sides from the leading European rugby countries to compete against each other.Given that brief their can be no way that Italy in particular and Scotland to a lesser extent are frozen out.

[Feckless Rogue]

Notch is correct. The French, believe it or not, want to expand the French league to 16 teams, to get two more home games and the revenue they'd generate. As if their schedule isn't clogged already!

To enable this to happen they want a slightly smaller HC. But they don't want to lose any teams. They want all the cuts to be in the PRO12 representation. They'll happily see Italian rugby disappear from the top flight so that they can get the money from 2 extra home games. Greed and self interest at it's worst. It's nothing to do with fairness.

Anyone who thinks this is a good direction for rugby to go is mad in the head. Especially since the Italians have actually started to pick up some decent results in the last few years. It's taking time for them to get up to speed. But it's working. And Scotland have gotten their first semi final.

This is what the Heineken Cup is for. To raise the level of all 6 nations. The English were happy to do this in the beginning. They saw that it was in the interest of rugby in the long term. Maybe it was easier to care about the long term interests of the game when you were number 1.

[ScarletSpiderman]

This is what the Heineken Cup is for. To raise the level of all 6 nations. The English were happy to do this in the beginning. They saw that it was in the interest of rugby in the long term. Maybe it was easier to care about the long term interests of the game when you were number 1.

They were not, they jumped on the bandwagon once it had started to pick up steam!

[Feckless Rogue]

This is what the Heineken Cup is for. To raise the level of all 6 nations. The English were happy to do this in the beginning. They saw that it was in the interest of rugby in the long term. Maybe it was easier to care about the long term interests of the game when you were number 1.

They were not, they jumped on the bandwagon once it had started to pick up steam!

Oh. I stand corrected on that point. Anyway...

I think the last RWC showed that European rugby is creeping closer in standard to SANZAR. I think the PRO12 sides and the Welsh and Irish in particular have improved out of sight since the 90's, thanks in part to the HC.

England fell behind, and had to raise their standards. Which they have done, because they've won 9 (woops, I mean 8) out the last 10 6 Nations games and beaten Australia home and away. Strong Celtic rugby is good for English and French rugby. All 6 Nations should have a place in the HC.

[rodders]

The Welsh and Scottish should all convert to Catholicism. With a ban on contraception their player numbers should increase to a similar level as Ireland's in no time. This will also ensure that all their players can play on Sunday.
Then finally we can have a level playing field.

Or they could just become Free presbyterians and recruit a load of evangelical saffers to plug the gaps...... whatever's handiest I suppose .

[HammerofThunor]

Notch is correct. The French, believe it or not, want to expand the French league to 16 teams, to get two more home games and the revenue they'd generate. As if their schedule isn't clogged already!

To enable this to happen they want a slightly smaller HC. But they don't want to lose any teams. They want all the cuts to be in the PRO12 representation. They'll happily see Italian rugby disappear from the top flight so that they can get the money from 2 extra home games. Greed and self interest at it's worst. It's nothing to do with fairness.

Anyone who thinks this is a good direction for rugby to go is mad in the head. Especially since the Italians have actually started to pick up some decent results in the last few years. It's taking time for them to get up to speed. But it's working. And Scotland have gotten their first semi final.

This is what the Heineken Cup is for. To raise the level of all 6 nations. The English were happy to do this in the beginning. They saw that it was in the interest of rugby in the long term. Maybe it was easier to care about the long term interests of the game when you were number 1.

In the beginning they were all in seperate leagues so the situation is complately different. It needs to be reconsidered, which is why the clubs have given notice of there pullout. Nothing wrong with that.

The PRL also want to expand (to 14 teams) but the RFU have said no.

Regarding the Italians, there were a lot of concerns within Italian rugby (I mean proper Italian rugby, not international) that the introduction of 2 teams into the PRO12 would kill off Italian club rugby. Might be better for the international side but nothing else. One of those have failed because the vast majority of the clubs involved pulled out (leaving just Viadana and one other). The other existed before hand anyway. It's just now none of the other Italian clubs have a chance (especially is some Roman club is fabricated).And Treviso have had several scalps way before they were in the PRO12 (didn't they beat Perpignan the year before?).

Would it not, possibly, be better for the Italians and Scottish teams (isn't there generally a Scottish side in the top half of the table?) to be focusing on improving to compete in the PRO12 and ACC rather than being dumped in the HEC? The ACC is the competition for developing rugby in Europe not the HEC. Strengthening the ACC is surely the thing to do isn't it?

[BoyneRFC]

I delight in the fact that the English and french are balling and scrambling for change, simply because they can't compete. Makes me happy inside.

Leave the Scots and the Italians in.

It's a European competition and not a Super league.

And before it's said by anyone, I can't remember Leinster ever having an Italian team in the group stages.

Ask Leicester what that's like- they get the every year !!!

[HERSH]

Who's going to win the Championship play off then?

Once again real rugby for real fans. Good luck to both teams.

[BoyneRFC]

[Moorsman]

Think I'll stick with my pint (or several) of Otter at Sandy Park and a Hog Roast Can't wait for next season to be able to join those moaning about the HC Even then I don't think I'll bother wasting my time, I'll just enjoy whatever game comes along. Pool of Death please

[rodders]

Boyne can you believe the arrogance of HERSH to suggest Leinsters runner up medals will be devalued because the English don't like competition structure???!!!!

[Smirnoffpriest]

Who's going to win the Championship play off then?

Once again real rugby for real fans. Good luck to both teams.

Funny you baited people about the HEC then asked everyone to talk about 'proper' rugby but when a poster did mention the up and coming Welsh Premiership play off Final you didn't offer a single comment.

Forgive me for going to the London Welsh thread to comment on the final - it's much more interesting commenting on the HEC here since you started the whole discussion.

[HERSH]

Funny you baited people about the HEC then asked everyone to talk about 'proper' rugby but when a poster did mention the up and coming Welsh Premiership play off Final you didn't offer a single comment.

I think you'll find I did

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Funny you baited people about the HEC then asked everyone to talk about 'proper' rugby but when a poster did mention the up and coming Welsh Premiership play off Final you didn't offer a single comment.

I think you'll find I did

True, you did.

You ignored my nice little spiel on schools and club rugby in NZ though

[Smirnoffpriest]

Of course Hersh - apologies I missed your insightful comment

[HERSH]

Funny you baited people about the HEC then asked everyone to talk about 'proper' rugby but when a poster did mention the up and coming Welsh Premiership play off Final you didn't offer a single comment.

I think you'll find I did

True, you did.

You ignored my nice little spiel on schools and club rugby in NZ though

I'm not perfect Kiwi.

Lets be honest the HC does need restructuring, how can it be fair that some clubs have to earn the right to take part whilst others are gifted a place just because their country lacks the ambition to set up a real competitive domestic league.

It wouldn't happen in football so why is it allowed in the HC?

[Smirnoffpriest]

Funny you baited people about the HEC then asked everyone to talk about 'proper' rugby but when a poster did mention the up and coming Welsh Premiership play off Final you didn't offer a single comment.

I think you'll find I did

True, you did.

You ignored my nice little spiel on schools and club rugby in NZ though

I'm not perfect Kiwi.

Lets be honest the HC does need restructuring, how can it be fair that some clubs have to earn the right to take part whilst others are gifted a place just because their country lacks the ambition to set up a real competitive domestic league.

It wouldn't happen in football so why is it allowed in the HC?

Teams aren't gifted places - unless you can make 4 go into 3...

[HERSH]

4 into 3!

what a joke that is, still not earning it in my book.

Why fans pay hard earned money to watch the Rabo I'll never know!, oh wait a min

[rodders]

Lets be honest the HC does need restructuring, how can it be fair that some clubs have to earn the right to take part whilst others are gifted a place just because their country lacks the ambition to set up a real competitive domestic league.

It wouldn't happen in football so why is it allowed in the HC?

It's fair HERSH because the places are allocated per Union, its nothing to do with the clubs. England have 6 places which is pretty generous given the quality of some of their clubs these days. Thats twice as much as Ireland and Wales and 3 times as much as Scotland and Italy.

If the English teams aren't competitive then English rugby need to restructure their competition so that they are.

[Artful_Dodger]

How sore can you get HERSH??

Chin up lad, next season an English team might make it as far as the semi-finals!!

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

4 into 3!

what a joke that is, still not earning it in my book.

Why fans pay hard earned money to watch the Rabo I'll never know!, oh wait a min

We feel the same about the stodgefest. You don't seem to object to the lads on Sky overhyping THAT though. Just the HC.

[HERSH]

But English clubs make money and the Jeff is a very competitive league and I wouldn't swap it for the world or a couple of plastic HC titles,

and another thing look at the Welsh Regions!

How much longer can that go on?

[Smirnoffpriest]

4 into 3!

what a joke that is, still not earning it in my book.

Why fans pay hard earned money to watch the Rabo I'll never know!, oh wait a min

Careful Hersh, the Scarlets avg attendance is only around 2 thousand below your's and 'us poor lil country folk' haven't got a big city to sustain our team OR the excitment of a cut throat edge of your seat AV to keep us interested where you never know from one game to the next if you'll be competing for a HEC spot or relegation! (or siting just below the HEC spots but comfortably far away from relegation, like the season before and the one before that and...)

[Smirnoffpriest]

But English clubs make money and the Jeff is a very competitive league and I wouldn't swap it for the world or a couple of plastic HC titles,

and another thing look at the Welsh Regions!

How much longer can that go on?

Then why are you moaning about HEC qualification - I mean if it doens't matter then don't enter...

[Smirnoffpriest]

Also Hersh from what I've been told only 3 teams made a profit last year - 2 from the AV and 1 Irish province. So that's hardly all English clubs make a profit

[HERSH]

But lets face it what else is there to do in Llanelli?

Ouch you walked into that one

And Bath could double their capacity and still sell out most weeks.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

But English clubs make money and the Jeff is a very competitive league and I wouldn't swap it for the world or a couple of plastic HC titles,

and another thing look at the Welsh Regions!

How much longer can that go on?

Would our season ticket holders even fit in your ground? Ehhhhhh. No.

[Smirnoffpriest]

But lets face it what else is there to do in Llanelli?

Ouch you walked into that one

And Bath could double their capacity and still sell out most weeks.

You mean Llanelli, Carmarthen, Pembroke... I could go on, they have got one good thing you can't do there "Talk to people like HERSH"

Have you actually been there Hersh?

[BoyneRFC]

You have to admit though, those Sky lads sure do know how to hype up the mundane and boring !

It's actually embarrassing ... must be why Froggy Barnes is basically dripping when he watches Leinster..

[HERSH]

Jen please take that up with Bath city council!

and yes, I lived there for a couple of years

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Jen please take that up with Bath city council!

and yes, I lived there for a couple of years

Where?

[Sponsored content]