4 Jeff clubs actually managed to make money last year!

First topic message reminder :

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/164350.html

Tigers , Exeter, Glawster and Saints

Total league losses £16.2 million (taking sales and wasps figures form the previous year), of which nearly a third is from everyones favourite club Saracens. At least they arewere winning stuff unlike Bath.


Mention at the bottom of the article about the salary cap. Despite this being an improvement on the losses from 2009/10 its still obvious why the majority of clubs dont want the cap increased, they cant afford to meet the bills they have already. Wages represent a massive drain on the games resources even with a lot of high profile players having gone to france or back to sanzar.

Equo Troiano wrote:

rodders wrote:My team - Ulster - do not roll over in the Rabo or anywhere else. My players, whoever pulls on the jersey, and coaches bust their b*lls and put their bodies on the line every week and I take issue with any one who says otherwise.

Rant over .

Apart from in the HC Final, where they were manshamed by Leinster...

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Rodders not saying the Irish don't deserve their time in the sun. I think the Irish have built themselves well. I probably do generalise too much when it comes to Pro12 clubs.

You can't deny it is an advantage if you are in the HC virtually every season. It means more revenue, more attractive for recruiting players and taking on the best of Europe every season.

Sorry Beshocked I'm grumpy today . Its too hot outside and its baltic in here with the air con.....

Yes we have certain advantages, I don't deny, but we work hard too and there is a lot of generalising around. I can't speak for the Italian, Welsh and Scottish teams but I believe what the Irish teams have achieved has been on merit.

No worries Rodders. I am probably overly harsh on the Pro12 a lot. I just get annoyed because us English clubs can't seem to pull our bloody finger out in the HC. What's the magic formula? How do you think English clubs can improve our structure and chances?

Generally English clubs are our own worst enemies. Saints could have taken their pool by the scruff of the neck if they had beaten Munster in the first game but consequently the heads dropped after that loss and their European adventure was over almost as soon as it began.

Quins did the hard work - beating Toulouse and Gloucester away but lost to Connacht at the final hurdle. London Irish in one of the weaker pools just didn't make an impact. Bath lost their first match and went downhill from then. Leicester rued their lack of losing bonus points and the ability to win away - they were up against it in their pool though.

Saracens should not have been beaten that badly at home in the quarter final - too limited to fight back when behind. Need to play with more adventure. Very disappointed with the manner they went out.

beshocked wrote:
No worries Rodders. I am probably overly harsh on the Pro12 a lot. I just get annoyed because us English clubs can't seem to pull our bloody finger out in the HC. What's the magic formula? How do you think English clubs can improve our structure and chances?

I don't think theres a quick fix. Unless the bigger clubs, through financial backers and sponsors, can afford squads of the quality and quantity to compete on two fronts like the top French clubs then they will be up against it.

The Tigers and Saints aren't too far off but that doesn't help the clubs beneath that who are in a dog fight to qualify for the HEC and don't have the big budgets.

Theres no point looking at the Irish set up because it won't happen. I mean would the RFU be prepared to fund 6 or 8 English teams and centrally contract the top players? I can't see it.

One thought is that the AP could be cut down to 10 teams, meaning less games and 10 into 6 for the HEC qualification? The clubs and Sponsors won't want that because less games means less money.

Theres plenty of tinkering that could be done to the AP, like ring fencing the clubs in the HEC from relegation but ultimately the problems facing the English clubs are financial. Until they can compete financially with the French and Irish clubs in recruiting top talent then the clubs will struggle.

I can see the Tigers, Saints, Quins and Saracens doing ok in the next few seasons though but theres a huge challenge for everyone to compete with Leinster and Clermont.

I suppose my frustration is the organization of a countries teams and how they qualify for the HC is in their own hands. If it doesn't work they have the power to change it.

I believe that it is is the best interest of Englsih rugby to add Leeds and Bristol to the current Premership and pull the ladder up for 5 years.
Reevalaute after that period.
That the fear of relegation gone.

The current situation where a number of Premership clubs dont meet the qualification criteria is a bit of a farce anyway.

Each country decides on its criteria for participation in next years HC so why not allocate 2 slots to the 2 best teams in this year HC. England decides the criteria.
The other 4 slots go to the next highest placed teams in the league.
Ditch the LV cup to create some space in the calender.

Not saying this is perfect but the point being made is English rugby has it in its own hands to improve its lot vis a vie HC success.

I wouldn't consider for one moment regionalization - it wouldn't work for England.

geoff998rugby wrote:I believe that it is is the best interest of Englsih rugby to add Leeds and Bristol to the current Premership and pull the ladder up for 5 years.
Reevalaute after that period.
That the fear of relegation gone.

Good shout Geoff.

rodders wrote:

I can see the Tigers, Saints, Quins and Saracens doing ok in the next few seasons though but theres a huge challenge for everyone to compete with Leinster and Clermont.

Is there an implicit assumption here that Leinster and Clermont will continue to dominate Europe Rodders? And for how long?

Rodders it's the salary cap that's the problem. The likes of Saints,Saracens,Quins,Bath and Leicester could afford bigger squads to fight on two fronts but it would inevitably mean them losing more money.

Of these 5 Saracens rely on the sugardaddies the most and would lose even more than they are now. They are losing a colossal amount already but because of the sheer wealth of the South Africans and Nigel Wray they could do it.

It's basically 5 vs 7 as it stands.

It's all about balance - you want to be sustainable but you also need to be competitive on a European stage.

My thoughts are Premier Rugby need to find ways to make all clubs more sustainable which would then allow room to raise the cap.

beshocked wrote:Rodders it's the salary cap that's the problem. The likes of Saints,Saracens,Quins,Bath and Leicester could afford bigger squads to fight on two fronts but it would inevitably mean them losing more money.

Of these 5 Saracens rely on the sugardaddies the most and would lose even more than they are now. They are losing a colossal amount already but because of the sheer wealth of the South Africans and Nigel Wray they could do it.

It's basically 5 vs 7 as it stands.

It's all about balance - you want to be sustainable but you also need to be competitive on a European stage.

My thoughts are Premier Rugby need to find ways to make all clubs more sustainable which would then allow room to raise the cap.

I agree with your here, I think in 2 -3 seasons times all AP clubs will turn a profit. Then they can start looking at salary cap's etc. It does mean it slow the growth of the top teams in that time though.

Portnoy wrote:

rodders wrote:

I can see the Tigers, Saints, Quins and Saracens doing ok in the next few seasons though but theres a huge challenge for everyone to compete with Leinster and Clermont.

Is there an implicit assumption here that Leinster and Clermont will continue to dominate Europe Rodders? And for how long?

Hmm not necessarily but they have been the standout teams for the last few seasons and are getting stronger. If I say so myself Ulster put up a big challenge this season, particularly against Clermont but we need to sort out our academy and infrastructure in order to achieve this level every year, especially after Pienaar, Afoa etc hit the road in a few seasons.

Munster, Toulouse and the top few French and English clubs and maybe the Ospreys will do ok too I think next year but Leinster are the gold standard right now, followed by Clermont.

beshocked wrote:Rodders it's the salary cap that's the problem. The likes of Saints,Saracens,Quins,Bath and Leicester could afford bigger squads to fight on two fronts but it would inevitably mean them losing more money.

For the richer teams it is yes in terms of Europe but looking at the OP most teams are losing money.

If you lift the salary cap you would end up with an even more one sided and less competitive league but the wealthier teams would be more competitive in Europe. Is that a price worth paying?

Rodders it's the salary cap that's the problem. The likes of Saints,Saracens,Quins,Bath and Leicester could afford bigger squads to fight on two fronts but it would inevitably mean them losing more money.

Of these 5 Saracens rely on the sugardaddies the most and would lose even more than they are now.

Saints and Tigers regularly make money, years when there is no profit are unusual. Tigers have previously stated they could afford to spend a little more but not a lot more and Saints are in the same boat. Sarries and Bath lean heavilly on their sugar daddy and Quins will do better this financial year because of the home semi final and AP final appearences.

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:Rodders it's the salary cap that's the problem. The likes of Saints,Saracens,Quins,Bath and Leicester could afford bigger squads to fight on two fronts but it would inevitably mean them losing more money.

Of these 5 Saracens rely on the sugardaddies the most and would lose even more than they are now. They are losing a colossal amount already but because of the sheer wealth of the South Africans and Nigel Wray they could do it.

It's basically 5 vs 7 as it stands.

It's all about balance - you want to be sustainable but you also need to be competitive on a European stage.

My thoughts are Premier Rugby need to find ways to make all clubs more sustainable which would then allow room to raise the cap.

I agree with your here, I think in 2 -3 seasons times all AP clubs will turn a profit. Then they can start looking at salary cap's etc. It does mean it slow the growth of the top teams in that time though.

Again it's all about balance. If more clubs are getting higher turnover and higher attendances they will be more likely to want a higher salary cap anyway.

You don't want to get into super club territory which you get in football - Man United, Man City,Arsenal,Chelsea etc then the rest with the only way to join that list is money money money.

A club like Exeter is great because they have shown they can grow and build with patience - it might have taken them a while to get into the AP but now they are they have a better structure than many other clubs.

You'll never see a West Brom or Wigan winning the Premier League any time soon unless a sugar daddy comes along but in rugby you have the potential of more clubs being at the top table.

If you lift the salary cap you would end up with an even more one sided and less competitive league but the wealthier teams would be more competitive in Europe. Is that a price worth paying?

The salary cap is being raised slightly ahead of next season anyway, the marquee rule is coming into force and an additional £250k is being added to the normal cap with the additional £250k lift the RFU incentives can offer (EQ representation linked). Therefore next year the AP clubs will have something like £4.25m plus option £.25m (dependent on EQ numbers) and marquee signing (additional £.3m). A handy increase that will allow some increase in squad depth but at the same time encourages EQ players and makes it difficult to sign big English players from opposition teams (the marquee rule can't be used to sign an English player from another AP club).

Well there you go then. What was all the fuss about?......

rodders it's still not in the same ballpark as the French cap. I think their cap is more like £8m?

I think their cap is more like £8m?

8 million of the evil Euros so that's like £6.5m in the current market which is a nice £2m more than the AP (not including the AP marquee signing thingy). That's a whole lot more squad depth right there.

Even so the AP clubs should do better next year. Tigers got caught in a tough group this year and really didn't perform well with their big names missing too many games, Quins were unlucky to miss out in their group despite a good showing vs Tolouse. Saints had a major RWC hangover and Sarries did alright until losing to Clermont.

Shoite back to square one then.

If the French are spending double the amount and the Irish teams have financial backing of their Union, plus tax incentives for local talent, then its not rocket science what the issue is. Money.

Changing the Rabo structure and qualification for the HEC is a bit of red herring and always has been. It would have minimal effect on the Rabo table, the strongest teams still are at the top, and the top sides would still be the top sides in the HEC because they have more money, better coaches, bigger squads and better players.

Like I say though without the salary cap the financially weaker sides would be crushed in the AP by the big guns.

That's what happens in sport Rodders - at every level and all sports.

And that's not just pro sports.

Portnoy wrote:That's what happens in sport Rodders - at every level and all sports.

And that's not just pro sports.

Not really, Portnoy, all the big American sports (football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey) have drafts systems to level things out, I think?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:That's what happens in sport Rodders - at every level and all sports.

And that's not just pro sports.

Not really, Portnoy, all the big American sports (football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey) have drafts systems to level things out, I think?

You might have got me here As -as I know almost nothing about US team sports. I do know that drafts are in place, but also that there is player trading going on and that there are big teams and littl'uns.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:That's what happens in sport Rodders - at every level and all sports.

And that's not just pro sports.

Not really, Portnoy, all the big American sports (football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey) have drafts systems to level things out, I think?

Yep, draft systems and salary caps (including minimum wage levels). Socialism in action

Yep, draft systems and salary caps (including minimum wage levels). Socialism in action

Heresy! Heresy! - Stone him! Stone HIM!

Changing the Rabo structure and qualification for the HEC is a bit of red herring and always has been. It would have minimal effect on the Rabo table, the strongest teams still are at the top

Really? You don't think the Rabo table is slightly misleading in terms of quality, for axample Edinburgh finished 11th despite reaching the HEC Semi? Would Ulster have really sent the academy side to Leinster for a whooping? The Rabo advantage is overhyped but to say the qualification criteria change would make no difference is wrong even if Leinster would still finish top.

Yep, draft systems and salary caps (including minimum wage levels). Socialism in action

It's a bit ironic that a country famed for its' love of capitalism and where 'Commy' is still a term of abuse that their sports are run in such a socialist model.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Changing the Rabo structure and qualification for the HEC is a bit of red herring and always has been. It would have minimal effect on the Rabo table, the strongest teams still are at the top

Really? You don't think the Rabo table is slightly misleading in terms of quality, for axample Edinburgh finished 11th despite reaching the HEC Semi? Would Ulster have really sent the academy side to Leinster for a whooping? The Rabo advantage is overhyped but to say the qualification criteria change would make no difference is wrong even if Leinster would still finish top.

Edinburgh I won't disagree with but they are the exception not the norm.

Ulster sent the academy side to Leinster because of fixture congestion over the xmas period. We beat Munster by a bonus point win at home a few days later. That had nothing whatsoever to do with the HEC and everything to do with maximising our league points over xmas.

I don't believe the league would look any different,no, the strongest teams are at the top and theres very little between 3rd and 7th in the league with Leinster clear at the top followed by Ospreys and Munster. The weaker teams are at the bottom and certainly they didn't do well in the HEC.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Portnoy wrote:That's what happens in sport Rodders - at every level and all sports.

And that's not just pro sports.

Not really, Portnoy, all the big American sports (football, baseball, basketball, ice hockey) have drafts systems to level things out, I think?

Yep, draft systems and salary caps (including minimum wage levels). Socialism in action

Or protectionalism. The franchises run a mutually supportive cartel, its the players that are the reds with their wage strikes etc.

nathan wrote:
I agree with your here, I think in 2 -3 seasons times all AP clubs will turn a profit. Then they can start looking at salary cap's etc. It does mean it slow the growth of the top teams in that time though.

Probably more like two thirds in those time scales. Frankly I can't see Sarries making money any time soon, nor Wasps. The overall loses will continue to fall though, and then no doubt the salary cap will be allowed to rise.

DaveM wrote:

nathan wrote:
I agree with your here, I think in 2 -3 seasons times all AP clubs will turn a profit. Then they can start looking at salary cap's etc. It does mean it slow the growth of the top teams in that time though.

Probably more like two thirds in those time scales. Frankly I can't see Sarries making money any time soon, nor Wasps. The overall loses will continue to fall though, and then no doubt the salary cap will be allowed to rise.

I feel you're both being quite optimistic here. The game has been professional for 15 years and during that time only 2 clubs regularly turn a profit. What initiatives have been put in place that will change this? None as far as I'm aware. I can't see Sarries, Sale, Falcons, Wasps or Bath delivering sustained profit for the foreseeable future. Glaws have made a profit, but in reality we only turn a profit every 3 years or so. E years ago the board had to inject over £2m to balance the books.

The simple fact is that owning a sports club is not a profitable business. The key to financial management is to ensure that it is regulated to stop reckless abandonment. Quite frankly I'd rather make sure English clubs stay in existence than break the bank to try and win the HC.

The key to Chiefs financial success has been the conference/banqueting facility built into the stadium. This works all year round to produce funds for the rugby club and without this I doubt we'd be anywhere near the Prem. The plan is to increase the stadium to 20K but only as finances allow. Also built into the plan is an increase on the conference side of the business with a 1000 seat auditoreum. We'd love to have had a hotel but this was blocked by the local council who have not exactly been helpful with transport etc. It took more than 12 years to get where we are and we're thankful to have a board with vision. Incidently none of the board take a fee and the club is owned by the members (limited to c.750) which helps to keep a check on any silly notions about throwing money away. So, it is possible but not in the short term.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Changing the Rabo structure and qualification for the HEC is a bit of red herring and always has been. It would have minimal effect on the Rabo table, the strongest teams still are at the top

Really? You don't think the Rabo table is slightly misleading in terms of quality, for axample Edinburgh finished 11th despite reaching the HEC Semi? Would Ulster have really sent the academy side to Leinster for a whooping? The Rabo advantage is overhyped but to say the qualification criteria change would make no difference is wrong even if Leinster would still finish top.

Yep, draft systems and salary caps (including minimum wage levels). Socialism in action

It's a bit ironic that a country famed for its' love of capitalism and where 'Commy' is still a term of abuse that their sports are run in such a socialist model.

I have often asked Americans about this too. The NFL is quite communist in its organisation and it works very well. College football too. It's a bit like how many of them claim to dislike the French but don't know why. In Ireland we can be like with the English too.

leinsterbaby wrote:I have often asked Americans about this too. The NFL is quite communist in its organisation and it works very well. College football too. It's a bit like how many of them claim to dislike the French but don't know why. In Ireland we can be like with the English too.

Funny thing about the NFL, and what you say is a common statement about it. The usual expression is the NFL is a group of capitalists who act like socialists.

The latest innovation which came from the recent collective bargaining agreement is all teams must have a payroll at least 90% of the salary cap. This ensures teams remain competitive. Also ensures all teams and their owners buy into the financial requirements. If they can't pay, they have to sell their clubs.

Carnegie boss Etherington has committed the club to not spending more than it earns, sensible enough. The Back experiment was expensive and now without the parachute payment belts are being tightened and it remains to be seen whether Edwards can put an affordable squad together that compete for promotion. We have great facilities and very good academy but that is not enough. We could be a Championship side for a while. Professional clubs really will struggle to be profitable but dependence on rich owners will always be a precarious existence and there has to be a better way. I am waiting anxiously to see what our squad is going to look like.