Quins/Tigers England Team

If the England team could only be selected from Quins or Tigers players this is what i'd imagine the team to look like... (injuries aside)

1. J.Marler (Quins)
2. J.Gray (Quins)
3. D.Cole (Tigers)
4. N.Easter (Quins)
5. G.Parling (Tigers)
6. T.Croft (Tigers)
7. C.Robshaw (Quins)
8. T.Waldrom (Tigers)
9. B.Youngs (Tigers)
10. T.Flood (Tigers)
11. U.Monye (Quins)
12. A.Allen (Tigers)
13. M.Tuilagi (Tigers)
14. G.Lowe (Quins)
15. M.Brown (Quins)

16. M.Lambert (Quins
17. T.Youngs (Tigers)
18. G.Robson (Quins)
19. J.Crane (Tigers)
20. D.Care (Quins)
21. G.Ford (Tigers)
22. M.Smith (Tigers)

Easter in the second row for some added grunt in the pack. Croft to lead the lineout, Robshaw to captain the team. Harsh on Turner-Hall. George Ford pegs Rory Clegg on potential. Crane pips Guest and Wallace for the bench spot.

Anyway my point is English rugby is looking very healthy if we can pick a side of that strength out of our top 2 sides in the country.

Picking Easter over specialists like Deacon, Slater, Kitchener, Kohn, Robson (and this season Skivington) is a bit iffy.

Crane will be Tigers first choice 8 next season plus Miles Benjamin woul dbe in the mix on the wing.


However I get your point - not a bad line-up.

As a quins fan, given the choice of Easter at 4 or out of the team entirely I'd still rather Kohn was at 4. Vital to our scrum and a big tackler.

Other than that I agree with all of it, and I think Ford is ahead of Clegg not just on potential at the moment.

LondonTiger - bit presumptuous to say Crane will be first choice next season surely? He's had a lot of bad injuries and Waldrom hasn't exactly been in bad form.

Waldrom has been in fantastic form, this year and last. Last season Cockers started Crane over Waldrom in the big games. I just suspect that should Crane return next season fit that will happen again.

Waldrom had slightly lost form at the time though hadn't he?

Of course you may be right though.

No it was because Crane did a lot of the hard work that Waldrum didn't do. He went on the barnstorming runs but didn't put in as much work in the ruck and tackle as Crane. Whether Waldrum has done enough to work on this and whether Crane will come back as strong is another matter.

Id certainly expect this lot would be the "best of the rest...aside form the ones who are injured" XV thats playing on sunday
The only standout starting England players missing are Hartley whos not played in 2 months, Foden and the out of sorts Ashton.

PSW

And those three all have pretty good replacements in this team anyway. Brown, Lowe and Gray all going to South Africa.

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Deacon
5 Robson (Ive swalled my pride and accepted he is good)
6 Croft
7 Robshaw
8 Easter

9 Youngs / Care = cant seperate
10 Flood
11 Monye
12 Twelvetrees
13 Lowe
14 Tuilagi
15 Brown

Geordie Falcon

Interesting team. What's the reasoning behind shifting Tuilagi to the wing rather than Lowe, and picking Youngs at Hooker?

Geordiefalcon

Also, dropping England's starting 2nd row in Parling for Robson? Other than that I agree with it on the whole, though I too would switch Manu and Lowe around

Waldrom had slightly lost form at the time though hadn't he?

Cockers liked to use Crane because he was a more attritional choice, you could guarentee he'd either be in the ruck or on the shoulder of the scrum half ready to smash the ball up for the next one. The guy has a bizarre ability to get over the gainline even if it is only a metre at the time, in heavy traffic in big games he is worth his weight in gold. Waldrom was brought off the bench when the game got a bit looser and defenders were tiring so his barnstorming runs created more damage. Crane also controls the ball at the base like it's glued to his foot.

I too would switch Manu and Lowe around

I've seen him play on the wing and I wouldn't, his positioning just isn't good enough in defence. A chip over the top or a grubber past him and you'd be away.

Because lose has creative ability and Tuilagi skills suit wing more than lowes....meaning Tuilagi would.see the ball more with good passes from Lose than vice versa....

Yes ive picked robson after checking the stats. I know they don give the full picture but they show him as the best lineout style second row in the country. Ironic as im not a massive fan....just using.my head I guess...

Ive picked youngs at hooker for his aggression, scrummaging and losose play. Inexperienced but so what..

Because lose has creative ability and Tuilagi skills suit wing more than lowes....meaning Tuilagi would.see the ball more with good passes from Lose than vice versa....

I think Lowe has better footballing skills but he is still a defensive OC rather than one I'd expect to create things for people around him. I've never really seen him pass the ball a great deal so in attack I'd argue there's little difference in creativity between him and Manu but Manu offers considerably more ball in hand.

Quite possibly Sam... how about we interchange them through the game...to suit the plays...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Because lose has creative ability and Tuilagi skills suit wing more than lowes....meaning Tuilagi would.see the ball more with good passes from Lose than vice versa....

I think Lowe has better footballing skills but he is still a defensive OC rather than one I'd expect to create things for people around him. I've never really seen him pass the ball a great deal so in attack I'd argue there's little difference in creativity between him and Manu but Manu offers considerably more ball in hand.

Taken from the Telegraph:
Lowe Tuilagi
18 Matches 9
3 Tries 1
15 Points 5
1 Try assist 0
4 Kicks From Hand 5
69 Passes 24
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
113 Carries 75
446 Metres carried 448
7 Clean breaks 13
12 Offloads 13
12 Defenders beaten 15
97 Tackles 40
11 Missed tackles 3
5 Penalties conceded 3
11 Turnovers conceded 9
1 Line outs won own throw 1
0 Lineout steals 0

Your view isn't really borne out, Sam. Lowe makes 20% more tackles (albeit at a slightly higher miss rate), but he passes the ball 40% more often than Manu and concedes fewer turnovers (i.e. gets isolated less often). They play very different games - Manu punches holes in defence, which he could still do from the wing especially if he came in field; Lowe plays off the inside centre and makes his breaks through timing, positioning and clever lines. In fact, Manu is more like JTH than he is Lowe - it's possible that they'd work well as a 12/13 combo.

Lowe is a deceptive player - he doesn't look that fast, but IIRC he's the quickest in the senior Quins squad; he doesn't appear to make flashy breaks but he glides through defences more often than you'd think. He's not known for his passing but he makes the same number of passes per game as Anthony Allen.

My 23 would be as follows:

Marler
Gray (just)
Cole
Parling
Deacon (hard call)
Croft if fit, Robshaw if not
Robshaw (c.) (or Wallace)
Easter
Care (just, probablly my bias)
Flood
Monye
Allen
Tuilagi
Smith
Brown

Brookes, Youngs, Slater, Guest, Youngs, Ford, Lowe, Lambert as 23rd man.

Some pretty good players in Wallace, Skivington, Kohn, Robson, Kitchener, Clegg, Williams, M Smith, Dickson etc don't even make the bench

The lack of lineout steals from both players is extremely disappointing. Not international calibre.

Pet peeve but per game

Taken from the Telegraph:
Lowe Tuilagi
18 Matches 9
0.17 Tries 0.11
0.06 Try assist 0
0.22 Kicks From Hand 0.56
3.8 Passes 2.7
0 Yellow cards 0.11
0 Red cards 0
6.3 Carries 8.3
24.8 Metres carried 49.8
3.9 Metres per carry 6.0
0.39 Clean breaks 1.4
0.67 Offloads 1.44
0.67 Defenders beaten 1.67
5.4 Tackles 4.4
11.3% Missed tackles 7.6%
0.3 Penalties conceded 0.3
0.6 Turnovers conceded 1.0

CJ as Hammer points out it averages out to an extra pass per game, hardly much more creative and although I actually rate Lowe and want him on the SA tour (he's earned it) I think Manu is just the better centre of the two and I'd trust Lowe on the wing more than I would Manu.

I think you're arguing with the wrong bloke- I picked Tuilagi to start, motley because partnerships are great and I am a big fan of Allen

Apologies.

Sam - Remember to take the number of times they actually get the ball into account there. Looks from the carries stats like Manu get the ball more.

I agree though - of the two I'd go for Lowe on the wing. He's extraordinarily fast and Manu is much more suited to 13 than 14 I think.

Sam - Remember to take the number of times they actually get the ball into account there. Looks from the carries stats like Manu get the ball more

True but his average metres gained and number of line breaks are higher. He makes the hole then Lowe just has to use that pace to be on his shoulder and happy days.