Will Wales' performance in Oz affect their Lions chances disproportionately??

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed May 23, 2012 3:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

All the Home Nations (and Ireland if need be) are touring down south this June. Next year is a Lions tour, which just so happens to be in Australia.

Now normally in a Lions touring year you would say 6N form early in the year has more to do with selection than the previous year's autumn internationals (or even further back). But let me put forward two scenarios to you and then comment on whether would have more of an effect on Lions selection.

First scenario: Lo and behold, manna or bread of heaven, Wales win the series in Australia. It doesn't have to be a 3-0 whitewash but that would be even compelling perhaps. Does stacking your team with proven players who have won on Aussie turf weigh more heavily than 6N form?

Second scenario: Lo and behold, Wales have a Barry Crocker of a tour and lose every match and heavily. Do the Welsh players then become inadvertently tainted with the stench of defeat and thus appear much less attractive as touring Lions because they are more mentally fragile. Or conversely is their humiliation seen as a perverse way to inspire them to a much better performance as they want to make amends for that humiliation.

Should this tour to Australia be seen in a different light is what I'm asking? Or should players simply be picked on how they perform in next year's 6N and for club rugby to have no bearing on selection?

by RubyGuby Thu May 24, 2012 2:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:I think Gtaland is being treated unfairly on here for no reason other than jealousy. Wales are top in the NH at the moment but that can't change in 12 months. If there is a marginal decision to be made about players I would expect any coach to go with the one he knows best. That's common-sense not bias. You can't compare him with Woodward who chose out of form ageing players who were well past it. There are not many like that in the current welsh squad. A lot of bitterness on here yet again because Wales have a successful side. I still can't work that out after Ireland and England have enjoyed past success. Maybe its just a few posters.

You're always such a rounded, well mannered,quite jovial and open Welsh follower normally Ruby....you can poke fun at yourself too even, which is always a good sign--- as long as the magnifying glass doesn't linger too long on a thing called the Welsh team.

Then the people who simply talk (or type) - for Yay, that is what 606 does best, is it not - are routed out by you as jealous Irish or English men who can't abide Welsh dominance in Europe. Well, whether we like it or not (I'm Irish so it's a natural I don't - is it bad to admit that? ) but whether we like it or not, we can't help but accept it - and I have, on numerous occasions. I said they were best side in Europe after the 6Nations itself. It's what they are - and I don't mind admitting truths. But forgive us all but we're also your European rivals... you have to get past our sides to get there, yes? Of course you do -and a mighty fine job of it you did this year. But as rivals, our job is to harbour desires to knock you off the perch - rather like all the 'lovely' comments coming Leinster's way post HC final. Rivals want you down and out - that's what the definition states.

Now that we got over that one - the 'jealousy' one - back to Gatland. Just because you want the majority of players to be Welsh because it will confirm Welsh European dominance, doesn't or shouldn't stop a few of us realistically (not jealously - realistically) suggesting there are a number of reasons why that might not be so. Live with the counter-views rather than just dismissing them as Irish and English jealousy. That's the lazy approach Ruby and it's beneath you

I can't work out if you agree with me or disagree and are just hampering on about semantics here - I am all for our greatest rivals to argue the toss and become the devils advocate, I consider myself a past master at the devils advocate role, however Gatland gets more than his fair share of shoite on here and he has produced a good young side. My Jealousy quip therefore just might be a semantic variation on your "rivals want us down" comment. I actually want the best Lions team and not that we've got to have the most players. Some non welsh fans as one has pointed out already would be more than happy to see 16 players from the best team in the squad. It's all hypothetical anyways. Maybe I'm getting confused with the green in the jersey and erroneously assuming that that green represents something else. love the dialogue though so keep it up, I'm sure we're not far apart in all this and just like the Murphys, I'm not bitter Hug

by RubyGuby Thu May 24, 2012 2:04 pm

Bilton has the numbers bang on thumbsup

by **Biltong** Thu May 24, 2012 2:06 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Bilton has the numbers bang on

Shht, don't tell them I got it from you. Wink

by geoff998rugby Thu May 24, 2012 2:07 pm

Is anyone having a go at Gatland Headscratch

My only observation is I hope he doesn't do a Woodward - the fact I do not believe there will not be 16 Welshmen is because I dont believe he will.

Also is anyone making a case for the most players from their own team ?
As I have said more than once I believe Wales will have the biggest contingent just not 16.

Sorry if I have missed posts by others saying otherwise

by SecretFly Thu May 24, 2012 2:21 pm

RubyGuby wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
RubyGuby wrote:I think Gtaland is being treated unfairly on here for no reason other than jealousy. Wales are top in the NH at the moment but that can't change in 12 months. If there is a marginal decision to be made about players I would expect any coach to go with the one he knows best. That's common-sense not bias. You can't compare him with Woodward who chose out of form ageing players who were well past it. There are not many like that in the current welsh squad. A lot of bitterness on here yet again because Wales have a successful side. I still can't work that out after Ireland and England have enjoyed past success. Maybe its just a few posters.

You're always such a rounded, well mannered,quite jovial and open Welsh follower normally Ruby....you can poke fun at yourself too even, which is always a good sign--- as long as the magnifying glass doesn't linger too long on a thing called the Welsh team.

Then the people who simply talk (or type) - for Yay, that is what 606 does best, is it not - are routed out by you as jealous Irish or English men who can't abide Welsh dominance in Europe. Well, whether we like it or not (I'm Irish so it's a natural I don't - is it bad to admit that? ) but whether we like it or not, we can't help but accept it - and I have, on numerous occasions. I said they were best side in Europe after the 6Nations itself. It's what they are - and I don't mind admitting truths. But forgive us all but we're also your European rivals... you have to get past our sides to get there, yes? Of course you do -and a mighty fine job of it you did this year. But as rivals, our job is to harbour desires to knock you off the perch - rather like all the 'lovely' comments coming Leinster's way post HC final. Rivals want you down and out - that's what the definition states.

Now that we got over that one - the 'jealousy' one - back to Gatland. Just because you want the majority of players to be Welsh because it will confirm Welsh European dominance, doesn't or shouldn't stop a few of us realistically (not jealously - realistically) suggesting there are a number of reasons why that might not be so. Live with the counter-views rather than just dismissing them as Irish and English jealousy. That's the lazy approach Ruby and it's beneath you

I can't work out if you agree with me or disagree and are just hampering on about semantics here - I am all for our greatest rivals to argue the toss and become the devils advocate, I consider myself a past master at the devils advocate role, however Gatland gets more than his fair share of shoite on here and he has produced a good young side. My Jealousy quip therefore just might be a semantic variation on your "rivals want us down" comment. I actually want the best Lions team and not that we've got to have the most players. Some non welsh fans as one has pointed out already would be more than happy to see 16 players from the best team in the squad. It's all hypothetical anyways. Maybe I'm getting confused with the green in the jersey and erroneously assuming that that green represents something else. love the dialogue though so keep it up, I'm sure we're not far apart in all this and just like the Murphys, I'm not bitter

Semantics? No, it's all clear enough, my points - I did good at them English lesson, wot I did Wink

The best squad, meanwhile, will be the best squad. We have summer tours and another 6N to get through. If you're right about Gatland, he'll choose the best players.

As regards the Lions - ah, we all say we want what's best for the Old Lions, innit - and yet barely conceal our collection of razor blades and uzis when some rascal suggests most of our particular contingent won't be needed. The Lions is it? If there are no Irish players on it (the Green bit) I couldn't give a toss - more honesty from me that might be shared around amongst anyone who wants to use some here.

My interest in the concept of Lions goes up percentage wise per Irish player in it - Is that greedy? Sure is - I'm Irish not Lion. And my favourite side apart from Ireland is the one we're going to try and beat this Summer. So, following the logic, if the Lions were playing against the All Blacks and there were no Irish players on the side.... I'd be rooting for the All Blacks.

There, that's me - why do so many people seem to think that certain poster's can be intimidated into guilt trips by tasking them up with the idea that they might be anti-Lions in their chit-chat. The Lions are Manchester - when Keane left so did my interest in them leave through the same door Wink

by RubyGuby Thu May 24, 2012 2:32 pm

There you go Secret, word for word is more or less how I would see my welsh version of the Lions as for every welshman chosen my interest increases. There's probably a plateau of about 8-10 and I'm all in and "almost" British ("well amostish"). What did you do when Keane walked out of the Ireland world cup squad? Yahoo

by funnyExiledScot Thu May 24, 2012 2:46 pm

biltongbek wrote:Becuase it is a natural tendency for coaches that steps up another level to do that as he knows what he has in those players, you can go down history and you will find that to be the case.

Expect very close to this kind of breakdown.

Wales 15
England 9
Ireland 8
Scotland 5

Firstly I'm not sure it's right that McGeechan ever picked Scots players on the basis that those were the players he knew. I think Gatland will be pretty impartial. He doesn't strike me as a guy who would jeopardise a win just for the sake of picking more Welsh players. I think he'll be pretty even-handed. As a by-product, given where Wales are, that will likely mean a few more Wales players going than from any other nation.

Secondly, I think your numbers are close, but I actually think Scotland will have only three players (Ford, Gray and Rennie) so you can probably add another to Ireland and another to England. The other possibles, Denton, Visser and Hogg, are in my opinion just short of making the cut.

by SecretFly Thu May 24, 2012 2:48 pm

We do agree! I knew I'd break you down, you rascal!

Keane - he's a mouth but he walked the walk (out of camp!) and I supported him - of course I did - he was Irish! ... Wink

That one might take some time.

No, truthfully, that period really was like a Civil War in Ireland - I think outside observers don't really realise how hot it got here - family members against family members. I supported him through it all.

by RubyGuby Thu May 24, 2012 2:53 pm

The thing that elevated the Irish football team was not professionalism which he got at United, it was togetherness as eptomised by Jack's boys and Mick's and they still went on to the 1/4's without Keane. Keane is a born leader and he was unable to follow on this occasion and his approach was divisive. Great shame for all concerned. thumbsup

by SecretFly Thu May 24, 2012 3:00 pm

He is/was an individual trapped at being good at a team sport - and actually, secretly, I think he now loves rugby more than football, if he was honest
- anyway, he's an individualist and I love individualists because through fate I think I'm one of them too - never great at the old team dynamics.

And I know they don't fully fit into team sports but nonetheless individualists often carry teams and he CERTAINLY carried Ireland often. Another individualist in a team is one Brian O'Driscoll - never cut out to be a natural captain - does his own thing and I know strictly no pack-animal "yes sirs" to his bosses.

Keane disruptive character - also why he was the player he was - catch 22.

by funnyExiledScot Thu May 24, 2012 3:01 pm

I always think of Roy Keane as the football version of Gavin Henson Run

by SecretFly Thu May 24, 2012 3:03 pm

He achieved much more than Mr Henson.....

by RubyGuby Thu May 24, 2012 3:06 pm

Keane and Henson are as alike as Shane Williams and Andrew Sheridan thumbsup

I've work to do - later thumbsup

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu May 24, 2012 6:08 pm

I think this will be an interesting post to come back to after next month's summer tours (it's certainly summer already here in Madrid. My shoes were melting into the pavement). To this point in time, we're judging the Lions squad based on this 6N predominantly and as Grand Slam winners, it's not unreasonable to imagine the lion´s share (sorry couldn't resist) of the squad going to Wales, at least in overall numbers. But all that can change. Let's face it, if England, Ireland or Wales get a win, it will send a powerful message to Gatland that they are capable of touring down south, particularly if one team is the only one to perform well.

Obviously, next year's 6N will have a big bearing on who goes but to me Gatland is a pragmatic coach and may well have a longer memory than the 2013 6N. He may well search for some southern experience and proven performers there.

by kiakahaaotearoa Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:21 pm

So do you think things have changed after 3 narrow defeats for Wales? Will the mix swing back from a Wales dominated squad as some predicted a while back? Or will Gatland trust in combinations which might affect notably Scotland's chances?

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:26 pm

If Gatland picks the best players from England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, the Lions will win this test series.

However if he tries to be too faithful to some of his Welsh favourites it will turn into a similar debacle as the SCW tour in 2005. Wales were beaten by the Australians in the summer series, although the games were close it was a whitewash.

Wales showed they struggled up front at the breakdown and their Scrum was under a wee bit pressure too. Wales are the best team in the NH at the moment, the Grand Slam in the 6N is testament to that, but something just didn't work in Australia and Gatland will have a year figure out what went wrong and come up with a solution.

He has the players at his disposal to win this series with class, talent, experience, youth and depth across all the positions. It has the potential to be the strongest Lions touring squad of this generation..... please Gatland don't make a mess of it!

by Morgannwg Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:08 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Wales showed they struggled up front at the breakdown and their Scrum was under a wee bit pressure too. Wales are the best team in the NH at the moment, the Grand Slam in the 6N is testament to that, but something just didn't work in Australia and Gatland will have a year figure out what went wrong and come up with a solution.

Joubert is what went wrong my friend. You can't coach how to deal with a guys imaginarium.

by Thomond Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:11 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I always think of Roy Keane as the football version of Gavin Henson

That's an insult to Roy Keane. Keane is one of the 100 best footballers to have played the game. You can't really say that ina rugby context about Gav.

by glamorganalun Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:02 pm

SecretFly wrote:He achieved much more than Mr Henson.....

Henson has acheived two grand slams, not bad, how many players outside Wales and France can match that?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:29 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
SecretFly wrote:He achieved much more than Mr Henson.....

Henson has acheived two grand slams, not bad, how many players outside Wales and France can match that?

Meh doesn't mean much in the general scheme of things Keane for all his faults will go down as a legend of the game (note I am not a Keane fan,imo he's a thug and a hypocrite but can't deny his talent and sheer will to win)

Henson was imo on a similar or possibly higher level of natural god given talent at his chosen sport but through a combination of injury and idiocy he short changed his talent and will be remembered as a decent player who could have been so much more.

by glamorganalun Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:57 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:
SecretFly wrote:He achieved much more than Mr Henson.....

Henson has acheived two grand slams, not bad, how many players outside Wales and France can match that?

Meh doesn't mean much in the general scheme of things Keane for all his faults will go down as a legend of the game (note I am not a Keane fan,imo he's a thug and a hypocrite but can't deny his talent and sheer will to win)

Henson was imo on a similar or possibly higher level of natural god given talent at his chosen sport but through a combination of injury and idiocy he short changed his talent and will be remembered as a decent player who could have been so much more.

Totally agree with you, Henson is a moron and could have achieved far more but in rugby terms he still has won more than most International players still playing (just) in the NH.

by samuraidragon Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:06 am

Alun, there are a 3 current Welsh internatioanls who have THREE Grand Slams under their belts, and one of them is already a double Lion. Now that really does take some beating.

Strangely enough they are all forwards, whereas the only other 3 Welshmen with 3 slams to their name - all 70s legends - were backs. A reflection, perhaps, of the unusual nature of Galtland's Wales, with its heavyweight pack and mediocre half-backs.

by majesticimperialman Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:08 am

I would not of thought that any Welsh player, or any other player for that matter, will be affected by what happened on the Summer tour.

However what happens in the Ais/6ns will i think affect their chances of being in the Lions squad or not.

by glamorganalun Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:37 pm

samuraidragon wrote:Alun, there are a 3 current Welsh internatioanls who have THREE Grand Slams under their belts, and one of them is already a double Lion. Now that really does take some beating.

Strangely enough they are all forwards, whereas the only other 3 Welshmen with 3 slams to their name - all 70s legends - were backs. A reflection, perhaps, of the unusual nature of Galtland's Wales, with its heavyweight pack and mediocre half-backs.

The only reason R Jones did not tour against SA was because he was the Wales captain and they did not want POC the Lions captain struggle to get support from the Wales players. Yes Ryan got called up but got sent back due to a head injury from the Wales tour of the US and Canada.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:31 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
samuraidragon wrote:Alun, there are a 3 current Welsh internatioanls who have THREE Grand Slams under their belts, and one of them is already a double Lion. Now that really does take some beating.

Strangely enough they are all forwards, whereas the only other 3 Welshmen with 3 slams to their name - all 70s legends - were backs. A reflection, perhaps, of the unusual nature of Galtland's Wales, with its heavyweight pack and mediocre half-backs.

The only reason R Jones did not tour against SA was because he was the Wales captain and they did not want POC the Lions captain struggle to get support from the Wales players. Yes Ryan got called up but got sent back due to a head injury from the Wales tour of the US and Canada.

Never heard that before - is that a fact or just something you made up?

by sugarNspikes Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:44 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:
samuraidragon wrote:Alun, there are a 3 current Welsh internatioanls who have THREE Grand Slams under their belts, and one of them is already a double Lion. Now that really does take some beating.

Strangely enough they are all forwards, whereas the only other 3 Welshmen with 3 slams to their name - all 70s legends - were backs. A reflection, perhaps, of the unusual nature of Galtland's Wales, with its heavyweight pack and mediocre half-backs.

The only reason R Jones did not tour against SA was because he was the Wales captain and they did not want POC the Lions captain struggle to get support from the Wales players. Yes Ryan got called up but got sent back due to a head injury from the Wales tour of the US and Canada.
Never heard that before - is that a fact or just something you made up?

I think it may just be the latter. Having said that, if it's true (which it isn't) then doesn't that reflect pretty badly on the Welsh players being disruptive and not being able to unite under a non-Welsh captain?

PS It's not true.
PPS Or is it?

by PJHolybloke Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:01 pm

How would Gatland go about telling one of his 1st XV Wales players that he actually preferred a player from one of the other nations for the Lions?

Unless some of the current Wales 1st XV explode in to tiny pieces, get injured or have absolute shockers in the AI's and next years 6N back-to-back, they will all be needing their passports - maybe I'm just an "odd" Englishman, but I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.

Sue me. Very Happy

by glamorganalun Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:31 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:
samuraidragon wrote:Alun, there are a 3 current Welsh internatioanls who have THREE Grand Slams under their belts, and one of them is already a double Lion. Now that really does take some beating.

Strangely enough they are all forwards, whereas the only other 3 Welshmen with 3 slams to their name - all 70s legends - were backs. A reflection, perhaps, of the unusual nature of Galtland's Wales, with its heavyweight pack and mediocre half-backs.

The only reason R Jones did not tour against SA was because he was the Wales captain and they did not want POC the Lions captain struggle to get support from the Wales players. Yes Ryan got called up but got sent back due to a head injury from the Wales tour of the US and Canada.
Never heard that before - is that a fact or just something you made up?
I think it may just be the latter. Having said that, if it's true (which it isn't) then doesn't that reflect pretty badly on the Welsh players being disruptive and not being able to unite under a non-Welsh captain?

PS It's not true.
PPS Or is it?

Why would a coach not pick a captain (as a player) that just led the team to a grand slam and played very well both as a captain and playing at number 8, the Lions selected brainless Andy Powell instead of Jones!!! Gatland was not the top man he was in a supporting coach role. This is the reason I believe Jones was not selected to reduce any risk of splits in the team, not that I am saying that would have happened. The team appeared united and the Wales players produced a significant contribution to the Lions. I would have selected BOD as the captain at the time as he was an obvious choice in the centre, POC was a debatable starter hence was not dropped.

by majesticimperialman Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:05 pm

I thught the reason that Ryan Jones was not picked last time the Lions toured, was because POC had been appointed Captain of the Lions., and Ryan Jones was captain of the Welsh team tha toured USA/ Canada.

I could be wrong.

by glamorganalun Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:07 pm

Jones was selected for the Wales role after the Lions selection, the Lions selection would be much higher importance the Canada/USA jolly, not that Ryan thought after being pole axed.

by wayne Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:49 pm

glamorganalun wrote:Jones was selected for the Wales role after the Lions selection, the Lions selection would be much higher importance the Canada/USA jolly, not that Ryan thought after being pole axed.

Ryan won the Grand Slam in 2008 the lions toured in 2009 after Ryan had had a very poor season for Wales and was excluded because of his form, it had nothing to do with undermining POC

by mowgli Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:22 am

Will Wales performance affect their Lions chances

Oh yes, gatland's shoo in appointment is now under scrutiny as it should be , and the players well they hardly have the winning habit....0/5 says something is wrong and it most definitely is. I used to think SamourCapt shoudl be SamourLionsCapt and no wi think definitely not

I think the followng will go on tour and none are guaranteed starters

Jones A
Charteris
Evans
Lydiate
Warburton
Faletau
Philipps
Priest
Roberts
JD2
North
1/2

by samuraidragon Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:10 pm

Doubt very much whether Priestland will go. If Galand is not the coach, he has no chance.

by englandglory4ever Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:33 pm

One thing is for sure and that is the Welsh can't do it on their own. They've had a go and they just ain't good enough.

There were far too many Welsh in the squad that went to SA last time. Same result.

However, having said that history tells us that the Lions VERY RARELY win a series. So it probably doesn't make much difference who goes as the result is likely to be the same.

by mowgli Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:17 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:One thing is for sure and that is the Welsh can't do it on their own. They've had a go and they just ain't good enough.

There were far too many Welsh in the squad that went to SA last time. Same result.

However, having said that history tells us that the Lions VERY RARELY win a series. So it probably doesn't make much difference who goes as the result is likely to be the same.

Yep, what we need on a Lions tour is people with a defeatist attitude and people who determine who should go based on what nation they come from...perfect. That'll help. thumbsup

by Guest Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:17 am

englandglory4ever wrote:There were far too many Welsh in the squad that went to SA last time. Same result.

Same result as what? When the Lions last went to SA? Your wum doesn't make much sense there.

If you're referring to the summer tour results, then yeah we should flood the team with English guys (with their non British ringers). Least then if they draw the final test after losing the first two, we can hide behind the fact they drew the last one and call it a success.

by Morgannwg Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:09 am

Should Gatland call up Mike Catt and Neil Back? Then we Lions might beat Australia.

by englandglory4ever Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:29 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:There were far too many Welsh in the squad that went to SA last time. Same result.

Same result as what? When the Lions last went to SA? Your wum doesn't make much sense there.

If you're referring to the summer tour results, then yeah we should flood the team with English guys (with their non British ringers). Least then if they draw the final test after losing the first two, we can hide behind the fact they drew the last one and call it a success.

The Lions very rarely win a series. Look at the history and see for yourself. That's what I mean by 'same result'.

by englandglory4ever Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:31 pm

mowgli wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:One thing is for sure and that is the Welsh can't do it on their own. They've had a go and they just ain't good enough.

There were far too many Welsh in the squad that went to SA last time. Same result.

However, having said that history tells us that the Lions VERY RARELY win a series. So it probably doesn't make much difference who goes as the result is likely to be the same.

Yep, what we need on a Lions tour is people with a defeatist attitude and people who determine who should go based on what nation they come from...perfect. That'll help.

Nope. Not defeatist just being a realist. Look at the history of the Lions and then tell me you'd bet your house on us winning.

by mystiroakey Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:17 am

the lions is to hard to make into a great team.

Dont wanna say look at football. but the GB team has a core from one country and then repaced problem positions from another nation..

that is the only way for us to go if we 100% want to win..

basically make wales, Ireland or england a better side!

This would kill the spirit of the lions- but at least we might win something

by mowgli Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:37 am

Well its true, SCW famously said that after 2005 Slam his lions side would be mostly Welsh and Ospreys have provided upto 13 players in previous welsh sides.
But 2009 proved that the Lions can meld a fine side from various nations if they have a gameplan. But in my view Wales took such a hiding from Aus that they are now a huge monkey on the collective back.

If one or other of the Home nations peaks in the 6 Nations and we don't get slammed by injuries i think we can do it, or at least have a fighting chance, but the fact is none of the home nations are on the up except the scots! Eng will be if they do well in January, Ireland are in disarray and Wales, well based on domestic success this season they are due a shocker

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