Appreciating Rocky

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Morning

Since this fighter is one of the most beloved/underrated/overrated on the board I'd like to take an opportunity, once and for all , to memorialise some thoughts on him.

From what I've read and learned about Rocky Marciano over the many years in the beginning he was an acquired taste; it took a long time. But, even the sceptics soon become Marciano believers. He apparently was clumsier in sparring than many could imagine a ham-‘n’-egger against most half-decent boxers in the gym wearing his 16-ounce gloves that looked like the fluffy pillows from Debenhams the wife keeps buying for some reason each week. I see the flaws what the doubters see on tape don't get me wrong, but every guy who looked like they boxed rings around him, the ones who pinned his ears back, the ones never missed him with jabs, came out of the ring looking like he was dropped from a 10-story building and landed flat-footed. Rocky's cuffing, pawing, mauling, grazing shots, flicks to the sides when he was tied-up on the inside, impacted them like they'd been bumped by a rhino. From ringside many reporters said when Rocky landed, the only evidence was an "OOPH!" grimace and quiver.

Rocky was ponderous. Fighters could see the punches. They weren't surprised; they were beat down, every sparring partner who looked sensational against him, said the same thing exiting the ring: "I hurt all over." The wonderkinds and Robinson-clones that watched Rocky in the gym or at the Garden and licked their lips at a future match thought of him like cancer: He could only happen to the other guy.

Off a stat sheet, any number of guys now would be favoured over him, but doing it in the ring proved it would be a sobering experience. The lads yesterday Jeff, Windy, Chris etc mentioned how Archie one of the toughest creatures on earth held Rocky in the highest esteem.

There are certain dimensions to his game, that are not immediately obvious, that quickly became apparent to anybody who shared a ring with him from Louis to Ali.

I cant remember who said "it hurt to bump into him", but they probably summed it up best. He could seemingly make an oponent hurt for every second of every round, and he was a lot more unpredictable than people think.

This is one fighter who definitely had the devil inside him.

I tend to rate him in the listings higher than most, Rocky is my number 3, not the most glamorous c.v I accept, however his undefeated feat and winning streak is yet to be replicated in any era at the heavyweights top level, that is proof to me thats how difficult it is.

Thanks and have a great day.

The Mighty Atom wrote:What should also be considered is that running shoes and track are now designed for speed, give Owens access to that and he runs faster, give Bolt Owens conditions and he runs slower. Factors like that don't exist in boxing. Marciano was a natural 190lbs as was Holyfield so the actual size difference is minimal.

Marciano beat the best of his era without doubt while the K Bros may have done the same taking out weight they are rated far lower because they are lesser skilled.

Im not sure about saying Marciano and Holyfield were all that comparable sizewise. I dont know the various dimensions such as wrist sizes, shoulder width and all that kind of thing but Holyfield was 6'2.5, 78 inch reach. Marciano was 5'10 with a 67 inch reach.

I would guess that Holyfield is alot more suited to making the move up and is naturally a bigger guy to Marciano. Like I said above, if anything I think Marciano should be looking to go down a weight, not up. If he could make Lightheavy he would be awesome. Thats just speculating though.

I would also question if Marciano is really more skilled than the Klitschko brothers. They are all fairly one dimensional, albeit a good dimension and none of them are considered to be blessed with finesse. I think the Klitschkos have some pretty underrated skills though, certainly if we are talking in Marciano terms anyway.

Height and reach don't translate directly to weight, they were both natural 190lbers

The Mighty Atom wrote:Height and reach don't translate directly to weight, they were both natural 190lbers

Different frames support different sizes and can accomodate weight differently. I dont know what Marcianos dimensions are or how well he could cope with bulking up. I suspect not that well. Holyfield on the other hand did fine when he bulked up and was well able for it. He was still considered a smallish heavyweight given some of the guys in his division at the time but back in the 50s he would have been a big heavyweight.He spent the majority of his career at heavyweight and he was a big cruiser so I dont think he finds the the step up as tricky as Marciano. Its just speculation though.

Holyfield had to make weight to fight at 190.

Scottrf wrote:Holyfield had to make weight to fight at 190.

As did Marciano.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Holyfield had to make weight to fight at 190.

As did Marciano.

To fight at Heavyweight?

Scottrf wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Holyfield had to make weight to fight at 190.

As did Marciano.

To fight at Heavyweight?

To fight at 185lb.

He felt it was his most efficient weight, but he walked around considerably heavier, and could have fought at 200lbish.

That's training down to it, rather than being out of shape. There's a difference between training down to it, and having to make weight and losing fluid to do it. Probably not that much in it, but Holyfield clearly had the better frame to add weight to.

Scottrf wrote:That's training down to it, rather than being out of shape. There's a difference between training down to it, and having to make weight and losing fluid to do it. Probably not that much in it, but Holyfield clearly had the better frame to add weight to.

And that is splitting hairs.

The fact is that Marciano could have bulked up, given the opportunities which Holyfield had.

Some modern boxers drain around a stone unnaturally (water/meals), and if Rocky had no reason to make weight it's not splitting hairs. Holyfield didn't to that extent but it's still valid, as is the idea that it's easier to put weight onto a much taller boxer with longer limbs.

Scottrf wrote:Some modern boxers drain around a stone unnaturally (water/meals), and if Rocky had no reason to make weight it's not splitting hairs. Holyfield didn't to that extent but it's still valid, as is the idea that it's easier to put weight onto a much taller boxer with longer limbs.

It's a fact that Marciano could have fought at around 200lb. and that HE elected to fight at 185lb. His training regime was one of the most punishing in history. Tyson routinely weighed around 215lb. as a young man, and he was barely an inch taller than Marciano.

Tale of the tape suggests that Marciano had the bone structure to add more usable bulk, which is my point.

HumanWindmill wrote:It's a fact that Marciano could have fought at around 200lb. and that HE elected to fight at 185lb.

Tale of the tape suggests that Marciano had the bone structure to add more usable bulk, which is my point.

And Holyfield could have fought at 300lbs, so that's not particularly relevant.

Tale of the tape probably also proves that Holyfield was the bigger man.

I'm not doubting he was in good shape, and he was 'bigger' for his weight than most modern guys are. He had a natural size, rather than an artificially 'bulked' size, but I don't think he carries 215 as well as Holy, even if Holy didn't do it naturally.

Scottrf wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:It's a fact that Marciano could have fought at around 200lb. and that HE elected to fight at 185lb.

Tale of the tape suggests that Marciano had the bone structure to add more usable bulk, which is my point.

And Holyfield could have fought at 300lbs, so that's not particularly relevant.

Marciano could have fought at 200 - 210lb. and still have been in shape, so it is absolutely relevant.

Unless his trainer, Charley Goldman, ( who is one of the most respected trainers in history and himself a veteran of over three hundred fights, ) is wrong, Marciano could have fought ' in shape ' at 200lb. at the time, and without the means by which Holy bulked up.

Well, it's a tradeoff, he obviously didn't think he'd keep the same stamina, agility etc, or he'd have done it. Whereas we know how Holyfield did fight at that weight, and he struggled to ever be seen as a 'real Heavyweight', especially after failing to knockout out Foreman despite teeing off on him for a number of rounds.

Scottrf wrote:Well, it's a tradeoff, he obviously didn't think he'd keep the same stamina, agility etc, or he'd have done it. Whereas we know how Holyfield did fight at that weight, and he struggled to ever be seen as a 'real Heavyweight', especially after failing to knockout out Foreman despite teeing off on him for a number of rounds.

Well, I certainly agree it's a trade off, Scott, and that that is why Rocky elected to fight lighter. However, in a division in which speed is less and less the holy grail, but rather weight and strength, together with scheduled twelve rounders as opposed to the fifteen rounders of Marciano's day, I could imagine a scenario by which Rocky would be prepared to come in a little heavier.

Bottom line is that this is all hypothetical and, to be honest, academic. Head - to - head was not the central thrust of the debate until the most recent posts, and it's never an easy question to address even without the size issue.

Wasn't really about head to head, but how much strength and possibly extra power would effect him if going up against Tyson/Bowe/Lewis etc. Holyfield we know did OK after putting on extra weight, with Rocky it's less clear and open to interpretation. His punch would probably translate but could he back up a guy like Bowe?

Scottrf wrote:Wasn't really about head to head, but how much strength and possibly extra power would effect him if going up against Tyson/Bowe/Lewis etc. Holyfield we know did OK after putting on extra weight, with Rocky it's less clear and open to interpretation. His punch would probably translate but could he back up a guy like Bowe?

Difficult isn't it, mate ?

Every instinct says ' no ' but in the back of my mind I can still see Mercer v Lewis.

That gets written of as pre-peak Lewis, the consensus being that later on his jab would control a fight better. I'm not so sure, it was still Steward, and he changed his jab from pawing early to a bit more dominant after the first few round. That didn't really seem to have an effect, Mercer still got into range and it wasn't until Lewis started throwing uppercuts that he had much control in the fight. How different do you see it being 3/4 years later?

On the basis of the SECOND Holyfield v Lewis fight, I have a suspicion that Mercer might always have been difficult for Lennox, Scott.

Only a gut feeling, though.

Mercer fought out of his skin against Lennox - who'd probably underestimated how much Ray would put into winning that night. Mercer hit a hot streak at around this point, giving Holyfield, Lennox and I think an equally resurgent Tim Witherspoon tough old tests.

Also, Lennox was never in control against Mercer - he was forced to fight at his limit and in the tenth it was Lennox who elected to jab and grab whilst Ray wanted to fight.

In a rematch Lewis would probably have boxed more - he had expected to tear through Mercer in an attempt to gain acceptance from US fans (story of his career until the Holyfield fights).

Scottrf wrote: Holyfield we know did OK after putting on extra weight, with Rocky it's less clear and open to interpretation. His punch would probably translate but could he back up a guy like Bowe?

~ Why sir, need we point you towards the obvious direction?

Mr. Rocky did more than OK, and I dare say using Mr. Field's mutant malted milkshakes and special hair creme, Mr. Rocky could grow some mighty muscles to beat all if his meager pauper's frame needed anything special to knock Mr. Bowe back to his kitcheon table from which he rolled from.

If a tyny Mr. Herbert Hide can have Mr. Bowe staggering about, lost at sea, imagine what a gentlemen with a chin who would be there all 15 rounds could do, as if that has any bearing on the actual legend Mr. Rocky.

The name has rang out magnificently through the ages with no additional ingrediants needed, sir.

I think I know the point Windy is trying to put across

Despite having a bigger frame, Holyfield was a natural 200lbs just as Marciano was taking into account weight cutting, any weight above that starts becoming muscle bulk and is less useful. Tyson and Tua are perfect examples of what natural weight is despite what you'd expect from guys of their height. Different body types and all that, should remember that heavyweights used to try fighting at a weight they felt most comfortable at and would cut weight to get down their, this is far less of a factor nowadays.

The Mighty Atom wrote:I think I know the point Windy is trying to put across

Despite having a bigger frame, Holyfield was a natural 200lbs just as Marciano was taking into account weight cutting, any weight above that starts becoming muscle bulk and is less useful. Tyson and Tua are perfect examples of what natural weight is despite what you'd expect from guys of their height. Different body types and all that, should remember that heavyweights used to try fighting at a weight they felt most comfortable at and would cut weight to get down their, this is far less of a factor nowadays.

Bingo, Ghosty, though as Albert points out, Rocky's legend is intact, regardless.