Rules query

Ladies and gents,

Can i ask your opinion on a ruling?

At my club Sunday for a medal day and i'm playing in a threesome. I'm not acutally doing the medal as i have to shoot early but the other two are. We get to the par 4 10th and one guy hits his 2nd shot off a tree and into a bunker which is GUR. Me and the other chap have already hit our 2nd shots so are trundling off down the other side of the fairway chatting away when, before we spot him, the first guy hits his shot from the GUR bunker. Confusion ensues as to whether he should now play out the hole or ingore that shot as he was in GUR, drop a ball as normal and play from there. We decide to do both, record both scores and check with the pro after. He scores a 6 with the first ball hit from GUR and a 5 with the dropped ball. I left after 15 holes but they asked the pro after and he said he didn't know and said take the 5. Fair enough!?! With the 5 my mate was 2 over his handicap and is Cat 2 so it suited him!

I've tried to check since and the most appropriate rules i can find are around rule 25-1 and these imply that a 2 shot penalty should be applied. But i'm not convinced i've got that right. Any ideas?

Incidentally, as i say i shot off after 15 holes (Mothers Day!) but was 8 over to that point. I'm a 16.6 handicapper at the mo. Hypothesis i know, but had i bogied each of the last 3 i would have been cut 1.8 shots, won the Medal and gone from a 17 handicapper to a 15 handicapper in the space of some 4 hours work. To boot, i birdied the par 3 14th and so would have bagged the usual £50 or so from the 2s. Thanks mum!!!

In Decision 18-2a/8, the player picked up the ball played from ground under repair and played it from another spot. What would be the ruling if the player abandoned the original ball by dropping and playing another ball under ground under repair procedures?

After the player played from ground under repair, which is permissible, relief under Rule 25-1b was no longer available, and the player was required to play his ball as it lay (Rule 13-1). When he dropped the other ball, he was substituting a ball and that ball became the ball in play (Rule 20-4).
If the location of the original ball was known at the time the substituted ball was dropped, the substitution was not permitted. When he did not correct his error as provided in Rule 20-6 and made a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball, he was in breach of Rule 15-2 as well as Rule 20-7 for playing from a wrong place and the applicable Rule is Rule 13-1. In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 15-2 or 20-7b). In stroke play, he incurred a penalty of two strokes for playing from a wrong place (Rule 20-7c). There is no additional penalty for incorrectly substituting a ball (see Exception to Rule 15-2).
If the location of the original ball was not known at the time the substituted ball was dropped, he was required to proceed under Rule 27-1, in which case the substitution was permitted. Since the substituted ball was not dropped at the spot required by Rule 27-1, he played from a wrong place. In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b). In stroke play, he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes under Rule 20-7c for playing from a wrong place. If the breach was a serious one, he is subject to disqualification unless he corrected his error as provided in Rule 20-7c.

Is this the same. From the interactive pages of the R&A.

Incidentally, in the situation of playing two balls and deciding later which is correct, the player MUST declare which ball he wishes to score if the rules allow. If he doesn't make this declaration, then the score with the original ball counts as long as it was played in accordance with the rules

I should have mentioned that the local rule says you have to take relief from GUR (as i think most clubs do). So playing from it was not permissable.

Really i think the question is, is there a penalty for playing from an incorrect place or does he just correct by dropping and playing?

the local rule would state that you must take complete relief from GUR. The key word there is MUST.

As far as I see it... DQ for breaking the rule and signing the card.

LJ - that exactly what the local rule says

You think still a DQ even though he asked for a ruling from a 'official' (club pro) before signing?
Had he not signed the card, what would have been the correct score to record?

I would have thought a two shot penalty added onto whatever score he achieved with the second ball, dropped outside the GUR

Surely under rule 13-1 it should be a 2 stroke penalty for playing from the wrong place.

Having subsequently signed his card for the wrong score DQ.

2 stroke penalty seems to be the consensus then? and then score the 2nd ball?

Setup - you also think a DQ even though he asked for a ruling before signing? I'm surprised by this bit

MPB. Some things are a DQ before you even sign the card. Leather wedges for example.

And club pros are not the people who make the rulings. The comps committee are.

whats the schedule anyway? BBC at the weekend?

I don't know what a leather wedge is but surely accidentally playing from GUR isn't one of the things that's a DQ before you sign your card?

I believe the head pro is part of the comps committee. That's why he was asked.

I remember when Harrington had his 1.5 dimples DQ incident, people were saying if he got the match ref over to give a ruling before putting he would then be protected even if it became appaarent that ball had moved.
And i've heard people on here suggesting others should have played a 2nd ball and checked after to avoid DQ.
Otherwise what on earth do you do in situation like that? Just go home as you know you don't know the rule and will therefore be disqualified regardless?!

Leather Wedge - Booting it one out of the trees. Think Judge Smails improving his lie.

And whilst the pro might be a member of the committee rulings have to come from the committee not an member of it when it comes to things like that.

I think that in this case it's fairly straightforward. You MUST take relief from GUR. Not taking it is therefore a breach. He may have applied a 3 shot penalty for playing from the wrong place and failing to remove it etc etc... But I would just DQ them.

From the R and A

Q

A player, unaware that his ball was in ground under repair, played the ball as it lay. The player then learned that his ball had been in ground under repair, picked up the ball played from the ground under repair, dropped it in accordance with Rule 25-1b and played out the hole. What is the ruling?


A


When the player played from the ground under repair, which is permissible, relief under Rule 25-1b was no longer available and the ball was in play where it lay.
When the player picked up his ball in play, he incurred a penalty stroke – Rule 18-2a. Since he did not replace the ball, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole in match play or a total penalty of two strokes in stroke play – see penalty statement under Rule 18.



Clearly should have been a six, so wrong score signed for on card. Sadly it is a DQ. You should phone the club as soon as possible.

But mac you seem to have missed the point that a local rule stated that you must take complete relief from GUR.

Leather wedge - i get it - good one ha ha!

Mac, as Davie says - playing from GUR was not permissable. That's the problem.
As an aside, and this may receive scores of disapproval, i'm not calling the club to have him DQ'd!

Ok so go back and read the local rule, they still have to make sense within the rules of golf. When setting the local rule it must have been discussed what rule to apply should you fail to comply with it.

Mac, the local rule simply says you must take relief from GUR. As most clubs do.

So really what i'm trying to ask is there a penalty for playing from an unpermissable place (same as if you played a 4 iron from a different hole's green or something), or do you simply correct by dropping as you usually would.
The consensus seems to be a 2 shot pen should have been applied which i think i agree with. I'm surprised by the DQ though.

it would be 3 shots. One for playing from the incorrect place and 2 for not replacing it. And if that wasn't applied then it's a DQ.

Although I still say if you play from GUR you should be DQ'd for not applying the 'must take relief' ruling.

Fair enough re the 3 shots. I get that

The DQ i'm not convinced on, otherwise the whole Harrington scenario doesn't quite make sense. And the advice of 'play a 2nd ball and seek the advice afterwards before signing' would be a load of rubbish

You are DQ'd for signing for the wrong score..

MustPuttBetter wrote:Fair enough re the 3 shots. I get that

The DQ i'm not convinced on, otherwise the whole Harrington scenario doesn't quite make sense. And the advice of 'play a 2nd ball and seek the advice afterwards before signing' would be a load of rubbish

MPB - perhaps the difference is that in this case, the "2 balls" option was taken AFTER the rules had already been broken.

Let's say hypothetically that the local rule wasn't in place (or you weren't sure) and the guy WANTED to play out of the GUR if he was allowed, THEN he could have played one ball from there, and one dropping from the GUR - then sort it out later. But in your instance, he had already broken the rules by playing from the GUR (whether he knew it or not) before deciding to take the "two balls" option.

Just a thought

MustPuttBetter wrote:Mac, the local rule simply says you must take relief from GUR. As most clubs do.

So really what i'm trying to ask is there a penalty for playing from an unpermissable place (same as if you played a 4 iron from a different hole's green or something), or do you simply correct by dropping as you usually would.
The consensus seems to be a 2 shot pen should have been applied which i think i agree with. I'm surprised by the DQ though.

That may be all it says on the notice in the locker room or wherever it is placed but the committee must have discussed its implementation and how to resolve matters such as the one you mention. If the committee have not properly set out how to implement the rule I say let of your mate as without guidance how can anyone be expected to follow and ill thought out introduction of a rule. If you are interested the only thing to do is bring this up with the committee and force them to make the rule clear.

Disqualified

Setup - "You are DQ'd for signing for the wrong score" - even though he wasn't sure on the correct score and checked before signing, and then signed on the advice of the head pro. That's ridiculous!

Davie - but playing the ball from GUR when he wasn't meant to isn't a DQ offence. There is a penalty for it sure. He checked with the pro before signing, received what was assumed to be the correct advice and signed. Still a DQ?

That's Dazzler, very helpful

Mac - i think you're right. I will check. To be honest i didn't expect the DQ to be the suggestion.
This wasn't me so i really was just curious on the rule. Wasn't realy for DQ to be the answer as it doesn't really tie in with anything else you see or read

Thans for the input though guys

One thing is for sure - putting the 5 down as the pro said wasn't right! Ha

I believe that once a competition result is posted on the board then it stands. So it looks like it's too late to DQ him.

I think that's the rule but I stand to be corrected.

the " must take relief" is applicable on my courses as a local rule. but after reading this thread it is clear we dont have a rule for someone who plays from GUR.

my "opinion" on the matter is that the rule is there to protect the GUR and as such is a local rule. if the mistake is not rectified before teeing off on the next hole then DQ. however if the mistake is realised then the player is entitled to rectify the mistake with no penalty, a la' winter fairway protection rule......on reflection maybe you should rectify the mistake before playing the next shot ...after the infringement.....now im lost

seemed right in my head

On behalf of the golf section I'd like to propose a vote of thanks to Leiger for clearing that up for us

If you look in the section for specimen local rules (Appendix I Part B Section 2a Ground Under Repair - Play Prohibited), the suggestion is that the local rule should include the penalty of 2 strokes for playing out of GUR (and then presumably play the ball as it lies). So the local rule at the club needs to be read to see whether it includes this penalty. If it doesn't, the local rule needs to be rewritten tout suite since it is obviously causing huge amounts of confusion!!

Only two things are important here.

First, your club needs to have a local rule which declares what you do in GUR. If it doesn't then this player was within his right to play from the GUR.

Second, the head pro could be construed as the referee. Some clubs notate this on their notice boards. Under rule 34-2, if the pro is the ref, then his decision is final. So whatever he decided is right.

If there is a local rule in place saying what you do in GUR, and the pro is not the ref, then the player should be DQed because he signed for a score which is less than he actually took.

Thanks chaps, and thanks for the 'effort' Leiger

I'm at the club this evening and will investigate the local rule a bit deeper and see if there any provisions for playing from it.

I'm surprised this isn't something that comes up relatively often. Playing from GUR is a bit silly granted but a relatively easy mistake to make i guess

Incidentally. Whilst the penalty for playing from GUR is a little unclear it would seem I know that there is a penalty which would be imposed by the greenstaff (if they happened to see you doing it) which is much more defined.

you get hung upside down in their shed, the junior most member of the team gets to slice off your clothes with a scythe, and the others get to poke you with pitchforks shouting "PROTECT THE COURSE" over and over.

Ha ha agreed LJ

He was a numpty. However, in the interest of being fair, this particular GUR bunker was featured in the recent club newsletter/update thing as whilst it is GUR but does not have the usual white lines surrounding it as they are trying to let the white paint grow out of the grass.
I guess you get a choice of leaving it GUR with no white boundary, or putting it back in play with a white surround. Both a little confusing.
The only thing signifying it as GUR is quite a small little placard thing on the front lip. Usually it's obvious but i guess if you go in there off a tree and approach the bunker from the side you could miss it.

I'd still like to see him receive said punishment though and will try and arrange it this evening

There's never an excuse for not knowing the local rules... Ask Dustin Johnson.

Agreed but my friend wasn't playing in a Major golf tournament for which he had spent weeks preparing. He was playing the same course he plays every week probably half in autopilot.
Stupid yes, but a semi understandable mistake

scale is irrelevant.

And as a result of not knowing the local rules the handicap committee are also allowed to join in the pitchforking and the additional punishment of having the junior section rub rock salt on his body between pitchfork stabs is imposed.

Stop being grumpy!
I'm not saying there is an excuse, i'm saying it's understandable.

And yes, pitchfork him up!

Anyway, why does no-one care about my non handicap cut debacle??! That was the real story here! Gees!

I have a hangover. Grumpy is happening until it's gone! :yawn:

As to the other... Mothers Day has a lot to answer for. I for example got up and played my 18 holes... had a couple of beers... and then got home while the other half cooked lunch and I played with the little slug.

She got flowers so that was ok though.

Surely if you entered the medal, but obviously did not pay your entry fee, (as you knew you would not complete the round), you should have played from the yellow tees & not the Whites.

If however you did pay your entry money, you would surely just no return the last 3 holes & your handicap would have been cut & you could have won some dough with your magic 2.

SDTM... A lot of courses pay no attention to white tees for medals only etc.

I always play the back boxes at the club I've just joined.

Fair enough LJ - hangover = grumpy. No issues there!
Hangover + work = proper hump! ha

Setup - i didn't enter, didn't pay. I did play from the whites - gasp! - as wanted a fair match with the other 2 for the time i was there. Would you really go and play for the yellows in that situation? Seriously?

Incidentally, had i entered, played 15 and no returned the last 3, i assumed the card would be a no return and i'd go up 0.1. Is that not correct?

No like you I would have played of the whites.

However if you had paid, your score would be a no return & you'd go up 0.1, but you would be £50 up.....

Davie wrote:On behalf of the golf section I'd like to propose a vote of thanks to Leiger for clearing that up for us

im just pleased i could help

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:No like you I would have played of the whites.

However if you had paid, your score would be a no return & you'd go up 0.1, but you would be £50 up.....

It's not as simple as going up 0.1, You could be cut even if you have an NR on a hole & no overall gross score. There are 3 reasons for returning a card:

1. For handicap purposes, your scores (or a blank at a hole) are adjusted to a net double bogey & then the handicap adjustment is calculated..... so you could get cut even if you have not completed every hole.

2. The scores returned have a direct effect on the SSS for the competition and therefore affect every other competitor in that competition.

3. It's bad manners to NR

The reason I am aware of this is that we have a number of people who continually NR and we have checked all the rules and CONGU.

Setup - good point re the money. £50 in exchange for going up 0.1. Hmm, tricky decisiion

GWR - you are quite correct, it is bad manners to NR and yes, not fair to the SSS. I should clarify that i didn't NR, i never entered. However, had i entered and NR'd the last 3 and let them be turned into double bogies i would still have been cut 0.9. Oh well!

Sorry MPB, I wasn't accusing you of NR'ing. I know you didn't enter the comp

No probs GWR
Maybe next time i will though!

I need to find a system where i can tell the days i'm going to score well before they happen. Any ideas?

MPB..... I'd love to know that as well.

Two weeks ago I played off the yellows as my mate didn't want to enter the comp. I got 41 points - gutted....

The good news was that last weekend I repeated it, another 41 points - this time in the comp.... only got 0.6 taken off though, I was looking for at least a full shot so disappointed (slightly)

Played 9 holes last night and was back to normal -