England Squad Announcement

Foden
Ashton
Barritt
Farrell
Wade
Hodgson
Dickson
Stevens
Hartley
Doran Jones
Botha
Palmer
Johnson
Fearns
Dowson

Mears
Mullan
Launchbury
Gibson
Wrigglesworth
Joseph
Goode

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/164557.html


Was hoping for a few changes in the backs myself. thoughts?

Must say even as a Sarries fan I am really disappointed by that.

Why pick Barritt as a 13 ?! Farrell showed his best position is 10!

Annoyed not to see 12.Barritt, 13.Joseph.

Glad to see Wade on the wing but with the centre partnership picked I can't see either getting much ball.

Stevens can't scrummage. Why no Mullan or Corbisiero?

Botha and Palmer in the 2ndrow looks really limited and shortsighted. I would have picked Launchbury instead of one of them.

Dislike that backrow.

I actually really dislike the team. I think it has really poor balance.

Entirely underwhelming. I hope this isn't a portent of future conservatism from Lancaster...but i suspect it might be.

He seems to want to go for triers over fliers. Fine if it encourages greater professionalism within the squad and sets standards very high, but i cannot for the life of me see how Barritt and Farrell is a future WC winning centre comob, or 6N winning one for that matter. Especially with Barritt at 13.

Why not give one of them a break and play JJ at 13. Maybe Lancaster wants to blood them gradually, which seems sensible, but i'm not convinced this is always the best approach.

Also, i know Fearns has played a bit at 7, but he's clearly never going to end up there. I think that's a pretty stodgy back-row, and it seemed a good opportunity to try one of the younger 7s with Fearns at 6 or preferably 8.

100% agree with beshocked, total lack of balance.

Given who's available, I don't think the backrow's a bad combo. Fearns is the closest fit option we have to a genuine seven, Johnson's performances throughout the season deserve recognition and while Dowson isn't going to set the world on fire at 8, the other options are either injured (Morgan, Crane) or not available (Easter, Waldrom and presumably Haskell).

Confused as to why Corbs isn't there.

It is a little disappointing that he's not trying out some options in the backs, but given it's a largely experimental pack it makes a lot of sense to have a settled midfield with two kicking options.

Corbs is apparently injured.

Guys I need to prepare an England vs SA preview for Kiwireddevil.

Could you give me some info as to who you see as potential stars to watch out for, the current form of the players, those who were unlucky to not get in please.

Thanks

Poorfour wrote:Given who's available, I don't think the backrow's a bad combo. Fearns is the closest fit option we have to a genuine seven, Johnson's performances throughout the season deserve recognition and while Dowson isn't going to set the world on fire at 8, the other options are either injured (Morgan, Crane) or not available (Easter, Waldrom and presumably Haskell).

Confused as to why Corbs isn't there.

It is a little disappointing that he's not trying out some options in the backs, but given it's a largely experimental pack it makes a lot of sense to have a settled midfield with two kicking options.

Fair point on the backrow, i would have preferred Gibson at 7, Fearns 8 and Johnson 6 though. I know Gibson isn't exactly a typical 7 but i'd like to see Fearns and Johnson in the positions they're likely to end up.

anyone think there's an element of protecting some of the players for SA?

I wonder if Lancaster is trying Farrell out at 12 because he might play him outside Flood. Just a thought guys

biltongbek wrote:Guys I need to prepare an England vs SA preview for Kiwireddevil.

Could you give me some info as to who you see as potential stars to watch out for, the current form of the players, those who were unlucky to not get in please.

Thanks

At work so very briefly....Wade - Great acceleration, fine step and good running angles. Small, and could be exposed in defence but has so far looked pretty solid. Runs almost like an American football player and has the ability to run at pace on looping angles due to a low centre of gravity. Also appears that his kicking game is getting better, although his passing is pretty...raw.

Unlucky to not make it at all? I've guffed on about this enough but Matt Garvey. A big physical lock, something we're crying out for. A very very reliable ball carrier - always makes the yards even from standing starts, presents the ball well, can carry all day.

i have to admit, i can't see England winning this game.

For the tour, you might want to keep an eye on the three SA born players, Botha, Barritt and Stevens

not a fan i must say. im glad wade has been given a chance but imo the negatives outweigh the positives for me.

STEVENS!!! i don't want to go into this in depth again it seems like my every post is a rant about stevens. but he does not deserve to be in the squad, and as a Worcester fan I can tell you Mullan is both far better, and more promising.

I also don't think Botha is good enough for International rugby. makes a lot of mistakes and is underpowered for me. Not as if he is experienced either so should have been Launchbury for me. see if he can cope with the enforcer role Botha struggles with

Backrow is understandable TJ deserves his chance, as does fearns, and in fairness Dowson adds much needed experience to that, although hopefully he is just a stop-gap. I think fearns and TJ will play left right as well, rather than blind and open

don't mind hodgeson at 10 to get the backline moving

HOWEVER the farrell/barrett centre combination for me completely defeats the point of having a playmaker at 10!! I would have loved to have seen 12. Barritt 13. Joseph to really take the game to the BaaBaas. Cant see much offensively at all out of Farrell and Barritt together

@Biltong IMO players to watch will be

farrell, who may be at 10 for the series, and will at least be on the bench. This could be a chance for him to showcase his previously missing attacking flair, as he has so far been steady in defence and had a good kicking game.

PDJ - reputation as a very good scrummager who I hope can use this chance to leapfrog the woeful stevens onto the bench spot. He can cover loosehead. Had a bit of a pasting from Marler in the semi-final at scrumtime though.

Wade - electric talent who I hope to start the tests. without wishing to go OTT he has genuinely amazing feet and acceleration. top try scorer in the AP I think despite picking up fairly bad injury. could be world class. is small and defence will be tested.

Launchbury - another wasp who has shone in a difficult season. could be the player to inject real class and power into the test SR with Lawes being injured and Attwood and Garvey being out of favour.

Fearns - a real class act for the U21s has been playing premiership rugby for a few years despite only being 22ish. big bloke I think he's about 18 stone but has pace and breakdown skills as well, often plays at 7 for sale then bath BUT IMO that is to accomodate other players he is more likely to end up at 6 or 8. He could very easily provide top quality bench cover across the backrow. could be morgans compition for a long time.

for me Mullan is very unlucky not to start, but in fairness Corbisiero and Marler are better so he will probably feature in the widweek team.

The most unlucky to miss out are Attwood and Garvey. both big bruising locks, and just the type of players England need. your guess is as good as mine as to why they aren't featuring

thanks guys, keep the info coming.

gowales wrote:I wonder if Lancaster is trying Farrell out at 12 because he might play him outside Flood. Just a thought guys

I think that is exactly what he is doing. What worries me is that rather than drop Barritt he's trying to be loyal to him and keep him on the pitch anyway he can. Think Lancaster needs to get a bit more ruthless and just pick each position on its merits. From my point of view I definitely think Barritt is our best option at 12, but have no problem with Lancaster having another look at Farrell there.

Bugger! Farrell and Barritt together in midfield! What is the point - it doesnt work, and been tried. vs Scotland and vs Italy - all rubbish games.

biltongbek wrote:Guys I need to prepare an England vs SA preview for Kiwireddevil.

Could you give me some info as to who you see as potential stars to watch out for, the current form of the players, those who were unlucky to not get in please.

Thanks

Joseph is one to watch - when he comes on for an inevitably boring Barritt/Farrell combination.
Hopefully SL takes off Charlie. Moves Owen to 10, Barritt to 12 and Joseph to 13 - that would be a bit of a game changer.

Farrell at 12 makes sense.

ENG can't, just can't go to SA with 1 recognised kicker in the team... they will get destroyed.

SA will field at least 2, if Frans Steyn joins it will be 3. Watched S15 this year... the boks will play a tactical kicking game, territory will be key and if you get just one of your kicks wrong you'll be giving the opposition an attacking lineout deep in your half.

A Flood, Farrell 10,12 gives them the best platform to compete.

Playing Farrell on his own vs. Morne, Lambie and Frans is just a recipe for disaster.

Farrell is a big enough lad to play 12. It won't hurt their attacking game given Barritt would be the most likely victim but they would lose a bit of defensive bite.

I think the general feeling is that there are aspects of this team which are somewhat underwhelming. However there are a few players on the bench or on the pitch who a lot of people have been shouting about for a while.

I like Lancaster, but sometimes wonder if he has a bloody clue.

Awful team selection, I agree 100% with Beschocked. I can't imagine Catty is happy with that midfield, there's just no strike runner. Barritt is a reliable bosh it up the middle or ship it kind of centre and Farrell is a 10 with no running game played at centre because Sarries lack a proper 13 and he doesn't miss many tackles.

The pluses for me are that Fearns and Johnson are getting a go in the backrow, PDJ is at tighthead (a very good prop who would have had a lot of caps had he not hit the scene at the same time as Cole) and Wade is given a go on the wing.

I would have liked Goode and Joseph to have started ahead of Foden and Farrell and Launchbury ahead of Palmer.

Don't even get me started on the travesty that is Stevens over Mullan!

Biltong,

For the tour, I would look at it two ways:

Likely starting XXII:
------------------------
It's going to be a big tour for the tight five - can Cole, Hartley and Corbisiero (or Marler, if Corbs can't shake his injury) perform against the SA pack? Can Lancaster find the right second row pairing?

In the back row, Robshaw is in superb form, but it'll be a huge test for him as both player and captain. Do England need an out-and-out 7, or will CR's workrate compensate? Will his engine function as well at altitude? Can he lead a team in one of the most demanding rugby environments? Has Lancaster, like Woodward, lucked into having the right captain?

Lancaster also has the challenge of forming a new backrow, given that Croft and Wood are out. There are several possibilities - perm three from Robshaw, Dowson, Morgan and Haskell to look at only the leading contenders. I quite like the idea of a Robshaw-Haskell-Morgan combo, if Morgan can get fit in time, but otherwise it could be Dowson-Robshaw-Haskell.

At half-back, will it be Youngs, or will it be Care? Both finding some form, and Care is a protegee of Lancaster's. My guess is that Youngs will play if Flood is fit, Care (to spark the backline) if Farrell plays.

The midweek team
------------------
The other bolters and form players to look for, I would say, Wade, Joseph, and Lowe might all make an impact. It will also be interesting to see if Brown can force his way in at fullback - his style of play might suit the conditions in South Africa better than Foden's.

This isn't anywhere near the team I'd be hoping for. No dynamism in the pack and no flare in the midfield.

Continuing with Hodgson is embarrassing, had hoped he was merely a stop-gap to support Farrell as he found his feet during the 6N. What he will add now I do not know. Barritt is a world-class defender but a fairly poor attacker, not sure he's a long term answer. I don't see Farrell as an international 12 but as others have mentioned it may be necessary to have multiple kickers against SA.

Stevens ahead of Mullan? Really? Have we not seen Stevens crumble at enough scrums or flop over enough rucks in the last 12 months? He really has suffered for his enforced absence, he has not kept up with the ways of the modern professional prop. With all the youthful options available he should be nowhere near the squad. Hopefully PDJ will have a decent game and claim the test bench spot.

Agree with previous comments about Botha. In the side to add a bit of ballast and nastiness but there are better options in this department (Attwood, Garvey) and he isn't exactly young. Palmer gets a bit of undue criticism in my opinion. He was England's outstanding forward across the 2010 AI/2011 6N period, and hasn't done much wrong since. However he is also not the youngest and there are some serious prospects coming through so I doubt he'll be around much longer.

I'm not too disappointed about the back row. Lots of injuries and not too many other options available at the moment. Probably nothing like the test back row will look with Robshaw and Morgan certain to come in, probably Haskell as well. Adding the injured Croft and Wood, this will be an area of strength for a long time.

No complaints about the back 3 but with the midfield selected I'll be surprised if any of them get a decent chance to show what they can do.

I guess Lancaster has selected a side as close as possible to one he will pick in the first test, and is using this as a practice match. However so many of the guys who will start are unavailable so it seems a bit of a pointless exercise. Why not experiment a bit rather than persevering with mediocrity to fit a predetermined and uninspiring game plan?

You've got to believe at some point during the game the midfield is going to take a step to the right and Farrell will take over at 10. We'll see Joseph then I imagine, I just hope he's given a bit more than 10-15 minutes at the end of the game.

Stevens at loosehead is genuinely puzzling, how many times does he have to get beasted in that position before coaches will quit putting him there? It’s curious that they have left the out and out LH on the bench and started the guy that can (in theory) cover both prop positions.

I find Palmer’s inclusion in the starting line up a bit disappointing. Botha could have acted as the ‘power(ish)’ lock and let Launchbury feel his way into international rugby. Although, that probably wouldn’t have done much good for the lineout.

Players unlucky not to be touring:

Matt Garvey - mentioned above. Its not really clear why he's not going, other than the coaches prefer Botha or Robson.

Steffon Armitage - 7 is England's weakest position, so the Toulon Flanker, recently voted the Top-14's player of the season by a french newspaper, should have been a shoo-in. Unfortunately the beginning of the tour overlaps with the end of the top-14 season, making him unavailable. As he's based in france, he's not bound by the same selection rules as the english-based players, meaning that some of us are hoping that he may still appear at some point, particularly if there's an injury.

Billy Twelvetrees - Highly regarded 10/12. See this post for a discussion of his relative merits: https://www.606v2.com/t28955-king-great-lancaster-bombs-twelvetrees



Players to watch.

Owen Farrell - Annointed by the media as the heir to St Jonny of Wilkinson. Ticks all the right boxes in terms of Goal kicking, defence and composure. Hasn't yet really shown much prowess in attack.

Manu Tuilagi - of the Leicestershire Tuilagis. Englands only real midfield attacking threat during the six nations. He's everything you'd expect from a samoan centre, big, quick and powerful. Only real question marks are over his distribution.

Chris Ashton - the only winger in the squad with a proven ability to finish at this level. his close relationship with Foden has been a source of success for england in the past. Just coming out of a slump form-wise.

Jonathan Joseph - mentioned above - has won comparisons with Jerry "The Prince of Centres" Guscott. Probably won't start the tests, but will hopefully get a few games.


The Saracens midfield - the Hodgson/Farrell/Barritt 10/12/13 combination is how england started the six nations. Many of us hoped that we wouldn't have to see it again. Saracens play a pressure based tactical kicking game, meaning the only tries that england even looked like scoring came from "Chargedown Charlie" Hodgson. Barritt is immense in defence, but like farrell, hasn't yet shown that he can be a threat in attack. If england use this combination, bring a sleeping bag.

The Front Row - very strong during the 6 nations. some good props to come in too. Stevens is the weak link here though.

It’s curious that they have left the out and out LH on the bench and started the guy that can (in theory) cover both prop positions

To be fair to Stevens he does scrummage to the same standard at LH as he does TH, just because that ability would be matched by a girls under 13s team doesn't appear to be held against him.

mawhis has it right about the interesting points but has missed out the dilema for Lancaster. The best available 10 will be starting on the bench in the AP Final on his way back from a twisted ankle, in sparkling form Tobias Flood offers a much more rounded game than any of the other England options though is kicking percentages are not up there with Farrell's. Lancaster should be praying Flood makes it as his attacking abilities aligned with his familiarity with Youngs (England most naturally talented but unfinished 9) and Manu Tuilagi are key to England's hopes of winning in SA. It is worth noting that Ashton has shown his best international form when Flood has been at 10.

Just getting a small niggling feeling SL could turn out to be very marginally less conservative than Jonno. Hope I'm wrong. Flood (when available) is key. And Botha should play when he's finally able to catch/keep hold of the ball, and Stevens when he can get considerably more turnovers than give away penalties.

one small not that some of you have seemed to missed is whether Catt will better influence the centers in decision making and passing.

Disappointing- would have liked to see Farrell or Burns at 10, JJ starting and Mullan over Stevens. At least Fearns, Johnson and Wade get a run out. That's just not a good centre partnership... It's the weakest aspect of Sarries' game but it seen as indispensable?

Maybe this is a selections to iron out fringe players and subs. Ie Can Stevens do it or.not. Off.the bench does launchbury look ready...ditto jj....i think there is a wee bit of expwriementing here still...

But why the centre partnership? I don't think it's a coincidence that we played much better in games that didn't have Farrell and Barritt both out of position in the centres

I agree that centre is the most wiener-drooping thing of all.

Why would you do that when Lancaster has genuine strike runners available to him?

biltongbek wrote:Guys I need to prepare an England vs SA preview for Kiwireddevil.

Could you give me some info as to who you see as potential stars to watch out for, the current form of the players, those who were unlucky to not get in please.

Thanks

Ok, here's my view Biltong.

Potential Stars

Christian Wade- He seems to have everything you want from a winger, the pace, the step and the ability to score tries. On top of this he is no slouch in defence but we'll have to see how he gets on against the Barbarians and then we'll go from there.

Carl Fearns- A big ball carrying back row player who can play all the back row positions but I would really rather he settled at 8 as I think that is where he is best. He gets through a lot of work and has played regularly this season. A good possibility for a bench spot, I hope.

Joe Launchbury- A big enforcer type lock who gets around well in the tight and can also play 6 if needed. He just needs to improve his carrying to fit right into the England team.

Jonathan Joseph- A very quick outside centre who has a beautiful pass off both hand and can still tackle well. He is very quick but maybe needs to work on his tackling to take the spot away from Tuilagi.

Form

England went well in the Six Nations but we really need to develop more of attacking platform, hopefully that will come with time. Our players on form at the moment have to be Morgan, with his great carrying, Robshaw who has lead the team well and tackled his heart out and Parling who only secured a starting position halfway through the tour but really runs our lineout now. The one player I don't want anywhere near the England team is Stevens. He can't scrummage and adds nothing in open play, I'd much rather see Doran-Jones given the bench spot than him.

Unlucky not to get in

Well where do I start. Both Garvey and Attwood are unlucky to have missed out considering they are more in the enforcer mould and offer more than Botha (who can't catch to save his life!). Also, I would have liked to seen a young 7 in the squad, someone like Gibson or Wallace who really fit the openside flanker role. Billy Twelvetrees is unlucky but we already have 3 inside centres in the squad. I think that he will become the mainstay at 12 in the future. Finally Rob Miller is unlucky to miss out as he has been on form this season but we have two better options ahead of him at 15, Foden and Brown.

Back on the topic of the Barbarians match, I agree with many of the posts. This match should be somewhere to try out some new combinations but Lancaster has gone with the least attacking midfield he has avaliable.

Also, why is Stevens there, he can't scrummage and adds nothing.

Overall, I think this is a bit of a step back in terms of developing young players and an attacking game, I can't believe Catt hasn't created a more attacking back line.

Not sure how much input Catt has with selection. There's no way in hell he'd select that midfield though.

mawhis wrote:Not sure how much input Catt has with selection. There's no way in hell he'd select that midfield though.

I dearly hope not, that midfield looks set for defence and kicking rather than attacking, energetic rugby.

Lancaster always talks of his 'integrated coaching team' so you'd hope the backs coach has some say in which backs are selected. Obviously the final say will be Lancaster's but Catt needs to inject some attacking flare in the midfield and the first step to doing so is picking players in their correct positions who are capable of creating and exploiting space. Saracens scored 35 tries in 22 premiership games this season with this midfield, and the majority of those tries were through the forwards.

Urgh, can i really be bothered to tune in for this game now?

I don't like any of the units picked except back three, literally everything else though is rubbish.

Interested to see how the bench gets on. Shame EFS pulled out of the barbarians squad.

Oh no.

Stevens? Incredible, I can't remember him having a good game at club or international level this season, and Mullan is fit and ready to play.

And that 10, 12, 13? Now maybe Catt will surprise me and they'll look a lot better than under Farrell but:

Hodgson is good, but has no chance of playing in the next WC, so what is the point? Farrell and Barritt? Did nobody involved with England watch Sarries 'attack' this season? They are almost completely blunt, and they are because they don't have a 13 with a step and pace.

Second row is slightly underwhelming (England don't rate Garvey), backrow was inevitable once England gave Dowson the captancy (for taking being dropped well as far as I can see).

Back 3 is ok, but Ashton will probably end up on the left wing as Wade always wears 11 but plays on the right.

I was really looking forward to this game, but my faith in Lancaster has been shaken by this. Yes that 10, 12, 13 didn't let him down in those 6 Nations games, but it's time to move on and they are obviously not the longterm solution.

DaveM wrote:Yes that 10, 12, 13 didn't let him down in those 6 Nations games, but it's time to move on and they are obviously not the longterm solution.

They may not have spectacularly let anyone down but the games against Scotland and Italy were fairly abject. Perhaps we're actually using Charlie's chargedowns as our primary strike move now.

Some talk of England needing kickers to go to SA. I think it would be a huge error to get into a kicking duel with SA in SA. If they kick it to us we should run it back.

Dave running back isn't always an option, if the chasing is good then the territorial game becomes vital.

If the support play is good then running often is an option. I'm not saying England shouldn't kick the ball, but going there with a side set up to try to win a kicking duel is asking for trouble.

New Zealand in 2009 thought so too, so they tried to run from everywhere and lost all three tests.

I think England need to find the right balance between kicking and running in order to beat South Africa.

biltongbek wrote:New Zealand in 2009 thought so too, so they tried to run from everywhere and lost all three tests.

And they may have done the same thing if they had tried to outkick that SA side.

England have two ways to boost their kicking game - play Farrell in the centres or pick back 3 players mainly for their kicking.

Now I'm not fully convinced by Barritt/Tuilagi in midfield but I'm a lot more convinced about it than I am Farrell/Barritt. If I were to make a concession to kicking it would be to have Hodgson or (more likely) Farrell at FH as tactical kicking is probably the weakest part of Flood's game. I really can't see England starting the first test with anything other than Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi.

So then you have the option of picking back 3 players on the basis of their kicking. That would see Monye in the starting line-up, Wade nowhere near it, and possibly Brown instead of Foden. Frankly I'd rather see Wade trying to run it back than Monye kicking.

Brown for Foden would be acceptable, but that is the only other concession I'd consider.

DaveM wrote:

biltongbek wrote:New Zealand in 2009 thought so too, so they tried to run from everywhere and lost all three tests.

And they may have done the same thing if they had tried to outkick that SA side.

England have two ways to boost their kicking game - play Farrell in the centres or pick back 3 players mainly for their kicking.

Now I'm not fully convinced by Barritt/Tuilagi in midfield but I'm a lot more convinced about it than I am Farrell/Barritt. If I were to make a concession to kicking it would be to have Hodgson or (more likely) Farrell at FH as tactical kicking is probably the weakest part of Flood's game. I really can't see England starting the first test with anything other than Farrell, Barritt, Tuilagi.

So then you have the option of picking back 3 players on the basis of their kicking. That would see Monye in the starting line-up, Wade nowhere near it, and possibly Brown instead of Foden. Frankly I'd rather see Wade trying to run it back than Monye kicking.

Brown for Foden would be acceptable, but that is the only other concession I'd consider.

Does anyone think England have the power to take on SA in slog?
That would be a hatefully uninspiring set up, but I agree with you if it doesnt go too badly wrong against the baabaas its quite possible Lancaster will go with it....despite what the make up of the Jeff final suggests.
England potentially could put out a very strong set off attacking backs lead by the Youngs Flood combo.

Which Lancaster chooses will show a lot about his long term vision for England, this tour is supposed to be about developing the long term shape of the side and the way it plays not just results on the pitch. If that means Dickson, Hodgson, Farrell, Barrit and Mr Spoon then we are in for a pretty dull 3 years.

Does anyone think England have the power to take on SA in slog

Peter,

I actually think at our disposal we have got the players to do that...
The front row will give SA a lot of trouble...and we have some potential beasts in the back row...Fearns, Morgan, Launchbury (I would have started him in the Second row for this Baa Baas game) and even Robshaw is tough with a phenominal engine.

BUt its the second row thats really concerning me....we just look so lightweight...and whilst Botha is willing to put his head where it hurts he is also distinctly average...and whilst Palmer has been one of Englands best performers over the last couple of years....i believe we have better about...

Botha played well yesterday, really grafted and did the hard stuff. I'm no fan of his but he was excellent. Fearns was annoymous but Johnson should be worth a a look down in SA.