Best Winger in the World

First topic message reminder :

So today I couldn't make it to go to Twickenham again because already I am a little bit wearsome of always the tube break down and train have "signal failure". So I stay home in the garden and watching on TV the barbarians play my new country of England.

And again I hear commentators mention that Chris Ashton is the best winger in the world and he prove today by score three more tries.

It is some good entertainment to watching the open game like this but I doubting that this kind of match up prove anything and maybe this commentator get a bit sun on his head.

Who agree with me about it?

mystiroakey wrote:Why you all tetchy?

My daughter is 5 months and 4 days old.

At night, her current best practice is to scream until we wake up, then laugh and fall asleep again.

Repeat.

Repeat.

arr poor georgey- must be tough though. Congrats on the baby

Measuring a wing by tries scored only is wrong.

I look at Habana who plays for the Stormers and scored less tries than Bjorn Basson at the Bulls.

Habana plays for a team which by all accounts has te best defensive record in the Super 15 where as Basson plays for the Bulls which by enlarge are one of the top try scoring teams but one of the worst defending teams in the Super 15.

Habana is a much more all round player as his positional play is very good, he is one of the best defensive wings around and he still manages to score tries, albeit not as many as Basson.

Basson on the other hand has really only two strengths, he finishes well and is good under the high ball.

If I had to pick my winger I would pick Habana as he is better suited as he has better all round skill.

A wing's ability to score tries is very much dependant on what happens inside him.

Granted Morne Steyn is the fly half for the Bulls with the least meters ran, least offloads, least linebreaks and least defenders beaten, whereas Peter Grant for the Stormers are better in every statistic compared to Steyn.

It is the game plan itself that dictates what happens to the ball outside of the fly halves as well.

The Stormers have Jean de Villiers and Juan de Jongh, both well known for their intent to run crashball and not offloading or getting the wings into play.

Whereas te Bulls have Johan Sadie and JJ Engelbrecht two youngsters in their back line much more keen to distribute.

George Carlin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Why you all tetchy?

My daughter is 5 months and 4 days old.

At night, her current best practice is to scream until we wake up, then laugh and fall asleep again.

Repeat.

Repeat.

So she's up to a bit of mischief then?

GeordieFalcon wrote:On form with a good fly half Ashton is a try scorer. He runs fantastic lines....and his support play is excellent. Hes not the best winger in the world...but he is up there...as one of them....

I agree, Ashton when on form is pretty decent, especially when he shows a willingness to get on the shoulder to support. Though I personally think the best wingers are the ones who score match winning tries out on nothing. Ashton is not in that catagory in my eyes.

AlynDavies wrote:Though I personally think the best wingers are the ones who score match winning tries out on nothing.

Who do you think he might be talking about, posters?

biltongbek wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Why you all tetchy?

My daughter is 5 months and 4 days old.

At night, her current best practice is to scream until we wake up, then laugh and fall asleep again.

Repeat.

Repeat.

So she's up to a bit of mischief then?

I know you understand entirely my friend.

George Carlin wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Why you all tetchy?

My daughter is 5 months and 4 days old.

At night, her current best practice is to scream until we wake up, then laugh and fall asleep again.

Repeat.

Repeat.

So she's up to a bit of mischief then?

I know you understand entirely my friend.

I do, every time you get up and are as tired as everything possible, you heart skips a beat when you hear that laughter.

Ashton looked alright on Sunday, maybe he's finally dropped the weight of leaving Saints off his shoulders and can start again.

Still no Sinbad.

Sorry,I should have said latterly Joe Rokococo was`nt having a great time finishing.Which was why he was replaced by Hosea Gear,he of course had one of the best strike rates in World Rugby.When his usual try or more a test ceased he was dumped despite being one of the best Wingers in the S14 then.

Fair enough... my one eyed rightious indignation has subsided.......

Good save emack, phew. Rococoko was great at getting involved in the latter years, good work rate and trucked it up more. I may be wrong, but my recollection was that he seemed to score fewer tries when he bulked up. Lost that ability to glide through gaps. I still liked him even when his tries dried up, solid player.

Rokocoko, has always been a favourite of mine ( I am also the only South African that can spell his name correctly and pronounce it correctly.)

Good stuff biltong, you get the Caucaunibuca award for attention to detail

If the lions were picked today I'd go with...

North
Bowe
Kearney
1/2p
Foden
Cuthbert

as my back 3 options!

George Carlin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
I agree though if I had to choose between Ashton and Visser it would be Ashton. He has played at a higher level simple as that.

If that's your rationale then by extrapolation you'd rather have Bananaman over Visser too.

I also love the constant claims that playing for the Barbarians against England is apparently a lesser level than a straight test. I also note that nobody seems to substantiate this with anything approaching common sense.

No the key is play at the higher level AND performed.
Ashton has put in some quality performances at International level - Banahan hasn't.

Barbarians games are not the equivalent of Interhnationals. Lots of top players but the games lack the intensity of full internationals.

Ashton has proved himself a proven try scorer, and if the lions were touring Romania or Georgia he'd be the first name on my team sheet. But Oz is a different prospect, He has a good international try under his belt, and plenty of run in's.

NO worries.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ashton has proved himself a proven try scorer, and if the lions were touring Romania or Georgia he'd be the first name on my team sheet. But Oz is a different prospect, He has a good international try under his belt, and plenty of run in's.

That wouldve been a slightly better point if he didnt have 3 tries in 3 games against Australia.

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
I agree though if I had to choose between Ashton and Visser it would be Ashton. He has played at a higher level simple as that.

If that's your rationale then by extrapolation you'd rather have Bananaman over Visser too.

I also love the constant claims that playing for the Barbarians against England is apparently a lesser level than a straight test. I also note that nobody seems to substantiate this with anything approaching common sense.

No the key is play at the higher level AND performed.
Ashton has put in some quality performances at International level - Banahan hasn't.

Barbarians games are not the equivalent of Interhnationals. Lots of top players but the games lack the intensity of full internationals.

Visser hasnt put them in yet either, thats the point he was making. Youre basing Visser being > Ashton on his best form at club level vs Ashtons worst form at international level.
Besides neither well get near the Lions if the Welsh wingers are as good as the hype 6 months ago suggested.

And never write off Tommy Bowe.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ashton has proved himself a proven try scorer, and if the lions were touring Romania or Georgia he'd be the first name on my team sheet. But Oz is a different prospect, He has a good international try under his belt, and plenty of run in's.

Of course Chris Ashton has never been in a England side that has beaten Australia. Also he has never scored a try vs Australia.

Wait a minute.......

Easy run ins for Ashton's both times of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgMddSa5A4&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRpzejrMlEo

arr poor blues, He tried to make a funny and has only highlighted ashtons strength and perhaps his own nations lack of it. He hasnt just scored tries v aus but also has a winning record against them

To be fair to Joe Rokocoko only 6 players ever have scored more international tries than him (Ohata, Onazawa, Howlett, Campese, Underwood and the Squashed Goblin) so he can't be all that poopie.

to be fair, i really hope that try against Australia doesnt become another JW 2003 drop goal moment.

I mean that I hope that the single greatest thing that player has done blinds people to the absolute dross they've served up since

Yes Chris Ashton's recent dross - a hattrick against the Barbarians and some good form for Saints in his last few games for the club.

Other recent dross includes being joint top try scorer in the recent rugby world cup.

I feel Chris Ashton didn't get too many opportunities in the latest 6 nations because England adopted a Saracens-esque approach.

Will certainly be interesting to see what happens when he joins Saracens.

For Ashton's sake he has got to hope that some more creativity and attacking flair is adopted at Saracens. Particularly in the centres.

Comfort wrote:to be fair, i really hope that try against Australia doesnt become another JW 2003 drop goal moment.

I mean that I hope that the single greatest thing that player has done blinds people to the absolute dross they've served up since

No it didnt, hence the Sky commentary " we all used to wet ourselves over Ashton...yeah hes been poo over the last year or so but this gives me ample opportunity to go way over the top again" after his return to form at the weekend.
He also broke the scoring record after that one wonder try.

I hope this doesnt become another Shane Williams in 2008/9 year where people start writing a player off just because hes been carrying injuries and lost a bit of his confidence.

HERSH wrote:Show me a world class winger and I'll show you one or maybe two world class centres!

Winger is a hard position to judge IMO, most wingers at some point of their career will look unstoppable until another guy comes along whose better.

I'd still rate Shane above Ashton as more often or not he makes an impact.

North also looks good but I can’t see him staying a winger over the course of his career, I am surprised to see people say Cuthbert is a world class winger! Not in a month of Sundays.

This. A winger, in general (with a couple of exceptions, maybe Shane) is only as good as the ball he gets

Shane just so special though. With such a player. No wonder Wales are rank #1 and own all major rugby trophy.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Shane just so special though. With such a player. No wonder Wales are rank #1 and own all major rugby trophy.

He's the modern day Grant Batty and on his day

anotherworldofpain rugby is a team game.

Ickle Shane has performed very well in a Welsh team which has fluctuated in quality.

Top scorer at the world cup, who did he score against sorry, and England got past the quarters didnt they....

Ashton burst onto the scene and did very well, thing is, people now know what to expect defensively, Englands rebuilding hasnt helped, but he wasnt in great form pre-6nations anyway. I barely noticed him in the 6nations, or at the world cup bar against Romania,

He's a try scorer, and a potential gamebreaker, but hes inconsistent and scoring against Romania doesnt impress me. His defence needs to improve as he almost shy's away from tackling.

His form for saints has been okay beshocked, nothing more.

And theres never high scoring babas games......

:

beshocked wrote:anotherworldofpain rugby is a team game.

Ickle Shane has performed very well in a Welsh team which has fluctuated in quality.

as Hersh is being too reasonable in this thread, I put it to you lot, that the Visser will be the Scots Banahan. Big, fast when up to speed, slow turn around, deft offload and plenty of leg to tackle.

give it a season and he'll be playing center

No feeding the troll now, lads.

Can we all at least agreeing that on form then Cueto was best wing produced in the Northern Hemisphere teams since start of professional age?

Comfort wrote:Top scorer at the world cup, who did he score against sorry, and England got past the quarters didnt they....

Ashton burst onto the scene and did very well, thing is, people now know what to expect defensively, Englands rebuilding hasnt helped, but he wasnt in great form pre-6nations anyway. I barely noticed him in the 6nations, or at the world cup bar against Romania,

He's a try scorer, and a potential gamebreaker, but hes inconsistent and scoring against Romania doesnt impress me. His defence needs to improve as he almost shy's away from tackling.

His form for saints has been okay beshocked, nothing more.

And theres never high scoring babas games......

:

Bit rich of a Welsh fan taking the mickey out of England in a rugby world cup! Maybe you should check the respective rugby world cup records of Wales and England. Also look at the wins and losses. One semi final appearance in a blue moon doesn't make you the best thing since sliced bread. I think Wales did very well in the recent world cup but don't get cocky. You have a long way to go.

Ashton scored the winning try vs Scotland to help us top our pool. He's been low on confidence. I don't think the publicity and controversial incidents will have helped him. Now he's moving to a new club he has begun to relax a bit -he's rediscovered a bit of his form. Okay the Barbarians aren't the toughest opposition but nothing better for boosting confidence than scoring a few tries.

hahahahahah beshocked, dont take it to the groin and move the goalposts mate.

We're talking about Ashton, his form and the respective forms of his teams, the welsh world cup record has nothign to do with this.

All ive said is that Ashton is a good/very good club player, he had a very good start to his international career, thats hes been off form, thats down to a number of reasons, but his recent form is nowhere near being described as world class. That he's a try scorer, he can create, but seldom does, and his defence is dodgy.

That and I'd take a number of wingers over him at present, not including McVisser.

If any of that offends you enough to bring up the welsh world cup record, then im sorry, and its sunny outside, smile!

Oh come on beshocked. Wales reaching the top 4 of a tourny is such a massive acheivement for there nation- remeber that there are about 8 good teams in the world- so getting into the top 50% of that is something that should really bring a national day and the biggest party in there country

I agree with most of what you said - it's the mention of the recent world cup that upsets me.

Wales are a team on the rise but can they keep it up?

Not much else I can add with Ashton. I think he could well be in the mix for next year's Lions though. It just depends how things go for him till then.

I would say that for the Lion's tour IMO only Bowe and North are ahead of him with how things stand. Cuthbert had a good 6 nations but as it was his breakthrough season can he follow it up?

I'm sorry about it Comfort since is my thread starting and is not nice to see this annoy between the posters who all should be friends .

In my new country of England is a small worry for me that "we" (as I try to feel part of) like to live too much in the past. And still thinking about glory time of 2003 and other things that happen last decade instead focus on 2015 in England! By then with player like Tuilagi and Ashton, Botha, Stevens, Twelvetrees and Youngs we should be look to win the 2015 and put behind the old decades.

Exactly its a bit pointless talking about world cups and Ashton when we could be talking about Billy Twelvetrees. The only reason he isnt the best winger in the world is because hed quit the team and move to a bottom feeding club like Gloucester if he was put anywhere but 12.

I dont get what me bringing up Englands world cup record has to do with me trying to big up Wales. You guys are paranoid. I mean honestly, am i someone who goes around getting involved in these wales vs England arguments.

Englands world cup has everything to do with Ashton, as he was part of that playing squad and that tournament represents part of his form.

Ahead of Ashton right now for the Lions on the wing:

North
Bowe
Halfpenny
Cuthbert

Adding Kearney can cover wing, players like Wade/Visser as possible bolters etc etc.

Ive already said I think Ashton will make the squad for the lions, but hes a long way off being world class atm.

I've puit forward a clear and coherent argument about my view on Ashton, if you guys want to b*tch about wales and their record, thats your problem and for another thread.

Bowe and Cuthbert I can agree about.

But Halfpenny and North are quite limited in my mind. Don't have a good striking rate and suffer in the defense weakness more than Ashton.

Halfpenny would surely be picked as a full back.

Cuthbert needs to do more IMO. Most players suffer from 2nd season syndrome.

North and Bowe sure but we'll have to see how their club and international form holds up.

In regards to Ashton we have to wait and see. I hope that Saracens have signed Ashton as a statement of intent to attack. There is no point signing someone like him just to waste him with no ball.

Oh dear, had to stop reading comments after I saw how awesome he was scoring at the World cup, against those huge monsters as Scotland and Argentina he scored how many?

And a baa baas hatrick, we may as well give him player of the year now!!!

Those 2 video clips, he is put into space and steps a FB in both. Decent tries but not spectacular, go and watch Matfield chip and chase, retake and step a FB to score, now that was special. Also Gareth Cooper scored a cracking try against Aus and SA once, maybe he should tour with the lions!!

Ashton went 6 months with barely a sniff in the prem, he has 6 this season, only because of 2 in one game recently that has brought his tally up to respectable.

Ashton is a good tracking runner, but doesn't do much else. England actually went well this 6N and although I feel a bit sorry for him for being stuck outside Tuilagi he was poor!

He'd be 5th/6th on my list to tour if I were picking the lions right now, which is quite good I think.