Best Winger in the World

First topic message reminder :

So today I couldn't make it to go to Twickenham again because already I am a little bit wearsome of always the tube break down and train have "signal failure". So I stay home in the garden and watching on TV the barbarians play my new country of England.

And again I hear commentators mention that Chris Ashton is the best winger in the world and he prove today by score three more tries.

It is some good entertainment to watching the open game like this but I doubting that this kind of match up prove anything and maybe this commentator get a bit sun on his head.

Who agree with me about it?

beshocked

1/2p will be FB cover behind Kearney and Foden I think. He'll definately go, and for me he's the reason Ashton won't.

Pain

I'll try to take you seriously... Ask Strettle about 1/2p's defence!!!

Comfort wrote:

Mate you dont have to bother wumming when bluesman is around

Digby Ioane
James O'Connor
Hosea Gear
Corey Jane
Isreal Dagg
Brian Habana
JP Pieterson
George North
Alex Cuthbert
Leigh Halfpenny
Tommy Bowe
Vincent Clerc
Maxime Medard
Julien Malzieu
Tim Visser
Chris Ashton


I would find it very difficult to put those into a list of who is best and who is worst.

Looks like thebluesmanwummeth is up to his tricks again

anotherworldofpain wrote:Bowe and Cuthbert I can agree about.

But Halfpenny and North are quite limited in my mind. Don't have a good striking rate and suffer in the defense weakness more than Ashton.

Halfpenny...defensively weak

wales606 wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Bowe and Cuthbert I can agree about.

But Halfpenny and North are quite limited in my mind. Don't have a good striking rate and suffer in the defense weakness more than Ashton.

Halfpenny...defensively weak

It's about as accurate as some of the comments about Ashton on here.

thebluesmancometh I shudder to think who your top 4 - please say Visser doesn't appear!

Very harsh to write off Scotland and Argentina. How high the Welsh seem to believed they have climbed!

Write off Ashton at your peril.

Not been too happy with Strettle recently - two clear key try scoring opportunities blown in important games vs Wales and Leicester (semi final).

Ok they were good tackles to stop him but one of a winger's key jobs is to finish off a move with a try.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Comfort wrote:

Mate you dont have to bother wumming when bluesman is around

I dont even have to wum to enjoy this thread!

I mean, c'mon, people had to bring up the welsh rugby world cup record as they had no replies to my comments on ashton. thats fun enough in itself to watch!

Name the part of my statement thats a WUM!!!

They are valid opinions in my eyes, and With Gatland loving the big boys North,Cuthbert,Bowe they will all travel. 1/2p can play wing/FB and kicks at goal. Kearney is first choice FB and Foden a better option than Ashton.

Ashton won't travel becaused he is behind the big 3 and not a versatile as Kearney/1/2p!!!

Wheres the WUM?!

Whos mentioned Wales WC comfort? Ashtons WC has been mentioned as a posotive, but he only scored against minor teams!

beshocked

I think you've got me all wrong, I havn't written Ashton off at all. He's a very good player not playing well. He is behind the likes of Bowe,North,Cuthbert as Gatland will see it, and me personally would take Foden as an out and out FB and Kearney and 1/2p as Wing/FB's.

A small drop in form and a rise by Ashton and he'll be in, but at this precise moment I wouldn't take him, I would take the above 6.

And I didn't write off Scot or Argy, just mentioned they were stronger competition and not top tier countries that Ashton struggled against!

Not sure how Cuthbert has become such a shoe in for the Lions. I know he had a decent 6 nations but he has not had a sustained run. Let's see what happens in his 2nd season. Some players get worked out.

Look at Priestland, great world cup, woeful 6 nations.

I think there's a lot of hype surrounding the Welsh giants but England shackled them pretty well in their encounter at Twickenham.

The bigger they are the harder they fall!

Peter, Sugar

I'd stop getting so emotional, what I say might be critical of Ashtons current form and ability but it is not wumming.
But then I see a lot of people who can't argue coherently and just throw wumming accusations around...

thebluesmancometh wrote:beshocked

I think you've got me all wrong, I havn't written Ashton off at all. He's a very good player not playing well. He is behind the likes of Bowe,North,Cuthbert as Gatland will see it, and me personally would take Foden as an out and out FB and Kearney and 1/2p as Wing/FB's.

A small drop in form and a rise by Ashton and he'll be in, but at this precise moment I wouldn't take him, I would take the above 6.

And I didn't write off Scot or Argy, just mentioned they were stronger competition and not top tier countries that Ashton struggled against!

Who in your eyes counts as top tier?

Do Fiji and Samoa?

Does Australia count as top tier? Correct if I am wrong but Ashton has performed quite well vs them.

Is this the George North who's scored 10 test tries, 3 in the RWC '11 and 1 in the 6N '12?

And Splash (that was) who's scored 15, 6 in the RWC (top scorer) and 6 in the 2 6Ns '10-'12. He didn't score in the 6N '12 (but he did bag 3 last weekend, just to show he still can)?

Just saying..

beshocked

I agree, but I am picking my lions back 3 on current form. Cuthbert I think has been hit and miss, but if you think Gatland won't relish the thought of traking monsters all over the backline you'll get a shock.

Potentially the Lions could field a backline of...

Phillips
Sexton
Bowe
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Kearney

With monster as Cuthbert and Visser on the bench.

That might not work but it would be an intimidating line up!!

Barney, I think it's more pertinant to see who was scored on by Ashton. Also take their league form try count into account, just saying...

Priestland's woeful 6 nations led Wales to a grand slam after being man-marked at each attacking phase by 3 players against England. Italy and France.

Ashtons good form at the world cup /since the 6nations as you say has led to what accolades? individual or in a team?

Just putting relative form in perspective for you. Theres only 1 set of fans with a biased view here....

Beshocked

He had 1 good game against Aus, when noone knew of his running lines, and he was worked out pretty quickly.

He reminds me of Roberts, burst onto the scene then dealt with 2nd season. Roberts is now getting stronger and stronger as he mixes his game up, whereas Ashton doesn't seem to be improving much.

beshocked wrote:I hope that Saracens have signed Ashton as a statement of intent to attack.

We all agree is probably not statement of intent to defend

anotherworldofpain wrote:

beshocked wrote:I hope that Saracens have signed Ashton as a statement of intent to attack.

We all agree is probably not statement of intent to defend

To be fair, I've no doubt Ashton will come on a lot at Saracens.

With Hodgson at FH and Barritt at 12, thats some excellant distribution in midfield, along with the crashball's theyre capable of thats gonna open some serious half gaps for Ashton to exploit. Sarries have previously shown they can play some scintilating rugby with ball in hand when they open up, hopefully Ashton will be part of that. One thing they definitely will work on is his defense and first up tackling. His cover tackling is alright, its front on he can improve.

I'm not sure if it is the right move for him Comfort.
He will have to learn to defend better, but the Sarries gameplan hasn't changed that much, I can see him isolated and frustrated for long periods!

I think it could go either way, I'd like to see it accompany Sarries choosing a more fluid gameplan. How much of that is hope I'm not sure, beshocked could no doubt tell us more on that front.

They have the players there to be a very exciting side to watch, and successful, I dont think their current gameplan does them justice as a club or individually.

beshocked wrote:Not sure how Cuthbert has become such a shoe in for the Lions. I know he had a decent 6 nations but he has not had a sustained run. Let's see what happens in his 2nd season. Some players get worked out.

Look at Priestland, great world cup, woeful 6 nations.

I think there's a lot of hype surrounding the Welsh giants but England shackled them pretty well in their encounter at Twickenham.

The bigger they are the harder they fall!

I watched Cuthbert playing for Cardiff against Glasgow in the Pro12 and I know Cardiff were struggling but he literally offered nothing. His basic skills were poor and he just stood on the wing waiting for it to come to him. I'm pretty sure he touched the ball maximum 2 times and one of those he dropped. If thats a shoe in for the Lions wing spot then I'm pretty worried.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Beshocked

He had 1 good game against Aus, when noone knew of his running lines, and he was worked out pretty quickly.

He reminds me of Roberts, burst onto the scene then dealt with 2nd season. Roberts is now getting stronger and stronger as he mixes his game up, whereas Ashton doesn't seem to be improving much.

You can't claim Ashton has only ever had one good game (false anyway) then harp on about Cuthbert who has only 5 caps.

I agree Cuthbert has a lot to do to make the Lions - he would not be selected if the tour was this year imv.

Both he and Visser need big seasons to claim a place

Alex

When your pack isn't bothering, you have no 9 or 10 on the park and are being anhialated all over the park one man can do very little. And even in that game he was trying way too hard!!

Jeff

I never claimed Ashton has had one good game, I claimed the 2nd game V Aus he wasn't very good, hence he had one good game V Aus. He has had some very good games against poor opposition!

The reason I pick Cuthbert over Ashton is their recent international form, Cuthbert had some very good games in the recent 6N, I don't think Ashton has performed at the level Cuthbert was since the Australia game.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Alex

When your pack isn't bothering, you have no 9 or 10 on the park and are being anhialated all over the park one man can do very little. And even in that game he was trying way too hard!!

Jeff

I never claimed Ashton has had one good game, I claimed the 2nd game V Aus he wasn't very good, hence he had one good game V Aus. He has had some very good games against poor opposition!

The reason I pick Cuthbert over Ashton is their recent international form, Cuthbert had some very good games in the recent 6N, I don't think Ashton has performed at the level Cuthbert was since the Australia game.

I understand what you mean but top players understand that when their team isnt playing well they have to do something about it. He's the kind of player that can get a team on the front foot by running hard, so he could of just came inside and ran a few crashballs to get them going forward but from where i was sitting he looked rather disinterested.

Comfort wrote:I think it could go either way, I'd like to see it accompany Sarries choosing a more fluid gameplan. How much of that is hope I'm not sure, beshocked could no doubt tell us more on that front.

They have the players there to be a very exciting side to watch, and successful, I dont think their current gameplan does them justice as a club or individually.

I agree with that. I hope a more fluid gameplan is adopted but you never know with the Sarries coaches. The key is finding a good attacking 13 to partner Barritt. This could be Joel Tomkins, he's a good friend of Ashton and if he proves his worth could be part of a potentially dangerous backline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ALywws4aC4

The link shows what Joel did in rugby league. It will be interesting to see if he adapts. Big gamble but the potential is there.


As someone said earlier wingers can be made better by the players around them.

alex

He is a young man mind, and his game management isn't quite that good yet. When he does receive the ball he looks to beat men to score every time. With Wales that is an acheivable goal but at club level it makes him look bad.

He saw next to no ball against Glasgow, and with most of the Blues team not there at all he went into his shell a bit. He did similar V the Scarlets, he offered Blues only attacking threat and therefore made numerous mistakes. Trying too hard can be forgiven, going AWOL can't, and Ive seen Ashton do that a number of times too.

Compare his strike rate with say Jonah Lomu,1995 Lomu scored 4 tries versus a pretty decent England side.To stop him getting uppity the Coach said" YOU arn`t the Best in the World HE is"pointing to Jeff Wilson!!!.In Nz alone would rate Maitland,Guildford,Gear,Masaga,Cory Jane,if played there Nonu,Dagg,Ben Smith,SBW,Kahui.In the NH Sivivatu,THE ROCK STILL,Doug Howlett.
Ashton is a decent International Winger no better or worse than many,Worlds best?NOWAY!!!

so based on 1 bad game at club level, where his team was dominated, Cuthbert shouldnt go on the Lions, even though he scored numerous important tries in the 6nations just previous to said game, including the one that clinched the grand slam in a high pressure, tense affair at home to france, the world cup finalists, that was a 1 score game at the time.

With Parks at 10, theres no point coming inside off your wing, not unless you want to chase his kicks all day.

Howlett, Kahui, SBW, Smith, Nonu, are a little out there when comparing wingers IMO! I'd place Ashton above all at present. I'd put him in a category with Maitland, Masaga though.

Comfort your right, but you can understand Alex's reasoning, he did have poor games V scarlets too, falling off North for the winner, knockons, and basically trying too hard.

Comfort wrote:so based on 1 bad game at club level, where his team was dominated, Cuthbert shouldnt go on the Lions, even though he scored numerous important tries in the 6nations just previous to said game, including the one that clinched the grand slam in a high pressure, tense affair at home to france, the world cup finalists, that was a 1 score game at the time.

With Parks at 10, theres no point coming inside off your wing, not unless you want to chase his kicks all day.

And he was still the second highest try scorer in the pro12, despite missing a lot of games while he was with Wales - he also scored 3 tries for Wales and 3 (I think) in the HC.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I never claimed Ashton has had one good game, I claimed the 2nd game V Aus he wasn't very good, hence he had one good game V Aus. He has had some very good games against poor opposition!

The reason I pick Cuthbert over Ashton is their recent international form, Cuthbert had some very good games in the recent 6N, I don't think Ashton has performed at the level Cuthbert was since the Australia game.

I'm guessing the one good game against Australia was 2010 Autumn International match? He also played well and scored away in Aus in summer 2010. Ashton vs Australia: played 3, scored 3, 1 outstanding game, 1 good and 1 average. Not bad against a top opponent.

Define 'poor opposition'? Do you class Ashton's 4 tries vs Italy last season as such an instance? If you do, you cannot claim Cuthbert's decent performance against Italy this year.

I do actually agree with you that during this years 6N Cuthbert was better than Ashton. However Ashton still has the greater international pedigree at the moment. If Ashton and Cuthbert both repeat their 6N performances from this year again next year then I'd agree Cuthbert should tour ahead of Ashton, but at present I would not. Anyway, Ashton has been gradually looking a lot better since the 6N and I expect him to continue playing well.

The other thing I would consider regarding the lions wings is balance. I would not like 2 large strike runners (North and Cuthbert) playing at the same time. I prefer a bit of variety in my back 3. Ashton is different to every other winger available and for this reason, if he were in any sort of reasonable form, I would pick him.

North will be Gatlands first name on the Lions team sheet - 10 trys in his first 20 games as a 19 year old is not bad and he will get better - he creates trys as well - ask Mcfadden

beshocked, ive been interested to see how tomkins will adapt, he's certainly got the potential to be an attacking 13 in the JJ model but more robust. Sarries are really getting there, the squad is starting to be really strong all over the park, it does seem that 13 is the current only realy problem position. Farrell isnt a 13 for me, he's no doubt going to be an excellant 10 though, especially if he learns from Hodgson aswell as keeping his calmness, his great kicking and defense. He could be the real deal.

Bluesman/Alex, gotta agree, Cuthbert's been a bit hot n cold towards the end of the season, but its been a great first season for him at the blues. I guess as a blues fan im more willing to give him a little leeway than i am for others, blue tinted glasses make you do funny things. Ask Dai Young and his list of failed 10s!

jeffwinger wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I never claimed Ashton has had one good game, I claimed the 2nd game V Aus he wasn't very good, hence he had one good game V Aus. He has had some very good games against poor opposition!

The reason I pick Cuthbert over Ashton is their recent international form, Cuthbert had some very good games in the recent 6N, I don't think Ashton has performed at the level Cuthbert was since the Australia game.

I'm guessing the one good game against Australia was 2010 Autumn International match? He also played well and scored away in Aus in summer 2010. Ashton vs Australia: played 3, scored 3, 1 outstanding game, 1 good and 1 average. Not bad against a top opponent.

Define 'poor opposition'? Do you class Ashton's 4 tries vs Italy last season as such an instance? If you do, you cannot claim Cuthbert's decent performance against Italy this year.

I do actually agree with you that during this years 6N Cuthbert was better than Ashton. However Ashton still has the greater international pedigree at the moment. If Ashton and Cuthbert both repeat their 6N performances from this year again next year then I'd agree Cuthbert should tour ahead of Ashton, but at present I would not. Anyway, Ashton has been gradually looking a lot better since the 6N and I expect him to continue playing well.

The other thing I would consider regarding the lions wings is balance. I would not like 2 large strike runners (North and Cuthbert) playing at the same time. I prefer a bit of variety in my back 3. Ashton is different to every other winger available and for this reason, if he were in any sort of reasonable form, I would pick him.

Ashton has experience victory over Australia, twice. Cuthebert not on more attempt. Ashton know what is require to beat Wallabies and has executed this require before. I don't know the Wales players are strong enough in their mind to beat Australia. That might be an asset for English player in selection.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

jeffwinger wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:I never claimed Ashton has had one good game, I claimed the 2nd game V Aus he wasn't very good, hence he had one good game V Aus. He has had some very good games against poor opposition!

The reason I pick Cuthbert over Ashton is their recent international form, Cuthbert had some very good games in the recent 6N, I don't think Ashton has performed at the level Cuthbert was since the Australia game.

I'm guessing the one good game against Australia was 2010 Autumn International match? He also played well and scored away in Aus in summer 2010. Ashton vs Australia: played 3, scored 3, 1 outstanding game, 1 good and 1 average. Not bad against a top opponent.

Define 'poor opposition'? Do you class Ashton's 4 tries vs Italy last season as such an instance? If you do, you cannot claim Cuthbert's decent performance against Italy this year.

I do actually agree with you that during this years 6N Cuthbert was better than Ashton. However Ashton still has the greater international pedigree at the moment. If Ashton and Cuthbert both repeat their 6N performances from this year again next year then I'd agree Cuthbert should tour ahead of Ashton, but at present I would not. Anyway, Ashton has been gradually looking a lot better since the 6N and I expect him to continue playing well.

The other thing I would consider regarding the lions wings is balance. I would not like 2 large strike runners (North and Cuthbert) playing at the same time. I prefer a bit of variety in my back 3. Ashton is different to every other winger available and for this reason, if he were in any sort of reasonable form, I would pick him.

Ashton has experience victory over Australia, twice. Cuthebert not on more attempt.

Cuthbert has played Aus once! - As a replacement in the 75th minute for his first cap!!!

So how you can compare to Ashton? Ahston has beat Australia already and was his try that make the difference.

Why you would name some green wing when there is better proven player available?

anotherworldofpain wrote:So how you can compare to Ashton? Ahston has beat Australia already and was his try that make the difference.

Why you would name some green wing when there is better proven player available?

???

That makes no sense what so ever.

Sergio Parisse has never beated Ireland but I would rather him in my team than Heaslip.

Shane Williams never beat New Zealand but was the best winger in the world in 2008.

English mindset went well for the last lions tour didn't it...

That some green wing was one of the players of the tournament, and has generally outplayed Ashton since he arrived on the scene!

I agree with whoever said Ashton offers something different than the likes of Bowe and North, but he just needs to pick his form up, and not score run ins against weak opposition (of which Italy are)

Cuthbert has very little experience. I think he could well be worked out - 2nd season syndrome as people focus on him more.

Being big doesn't mean you are destined for greatness. Just ask Banahan.

thebluesmancometh neither of Ashton's tries vs Australia were run ins.

I never said they were, they were him being put into space and stepping a Fb, both of them.

Noones mentioned Cuthberts size specifically, all the arguments are that Ashton has been worked out, and Cuthbert may be.

As I said, there is validity to the argument Ashton brings something different, but I can't see Gatland dropping his monsters in the backline for him, or picking him over players in amazing form such as 1/2p Kearney or Foden.

Gatland likes em big and Visser wil be well ahead of Ashton. Ashton will not make the squad, sorry that's just the way it is. And please dont give me the Visser hasn't played crap

1/2 p will be lucky to go but only because he has a kick on him that is worth points - Both Foden and of course Kearney are ahead of him as FB's

Ruby do you have stocks in Visser???

1/2p will not be lucky at all, he'll be worth his place!

Ashton just needs a bit of form and a performance in SA will give him a lot of hope of travelling!!!

I dont have stocks in Visser I just recognise a special player when I see one. If he couldn't kick then 1/2P would not be considered. Ashton has a hell of a lot of work to do to be considered. He will not be going as he is not highly considered by Gatland anyway - Trust me, he can book his holiday well ahead

Thats a bit harsh!

1/2p is much more than a goal kicker, and Ashton is on the cusp of a lions call up, but I agree he has some work to do to get in, TBH IMO he has some more work to do to get into the English team!

Rubyguby are you joking or not?

I think Halfpenny is an excellent full back who will push Foden and Kearney all the way.

Have you spoken to Gatland? Do you know how he feels about Ashton?

You must be Visser's no 1 fan.

Ashton is a good international winger and still in Lancasters squad.

Does any of this debating make any difference?


Apart of course for keeping you all from your work.