Best Winger in the World

by anotherworldofpain Sun 27 May 2012, 11:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

So today I couldn't make it to go to Twickenham again because already I am a little bit wearsome of always the tube break down and train have "signal failure". So I stay home in the garden and watching on TV the barbarians play my new country of England.

And again I hear commentators mention that Chris Ashton is the best winger in the world and he prove today by score three more tries.

It is some good entertainment to watching the open game like this but I doubting that this kind of match up prove anything and maybe this commentator get a bit sun on his head.

Who agree with me about it?

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 3:21 pm

Good point Billtong, the site should now shut down as this debating means nothing Sad

by **Biltong** Tue 29 May 2012, 3:25 pm

Done, shut down all laptops, take your wives and girlfriends to dinner. thumbsup

by Comfort Tue 29 May 2012, 3:31 pm

i cant take both at the same time? can i take them seperately?

by jeffwinger Tue 29 May 2012, 3:32 pm

I know stats aren't the be all and end all but they're a reasonable starting point, and as the main arguement for Visser is his try scoring ability I thought I'd dig out some comparisons:

Tim Visser (age 24):
Newcastle 2006-2009, 22 appearances, 6 tries
Edinburgh 2009-, 57 appearances, 37 tries
Total tries per game: 0.544

Chris Ashton (age 25):
Northampton 2007-2012, 110 appearances, 92 tries
England 2010-, 23 appearances, 15 tries
Total tries per game: 0.805

I think it's clear for all to see that Visser is the bigger threat and has the brighter future...

by **Biltong** Tue 29 May 2012, 3:34 pm

Ashton must have faced some soft defences in his time. Whistle

by **Biltong** Tue 29 May 2012, 3:36 pm

Comfort wrote:i cant take both at the same time? can i take them seperately?

If I was a sadist I would have said you must take them together.

If I was a voyeur I would ask you to record it. Best Winger in the World - Page 5 1347041234

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 3:38 pm

If you were a perv you'd ask for an invite

by **Biltong** Tue 29 May 2012, 3:39 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:If you were a perv you'd ask for an invite

by Comfort Tue 29 May 2012, 3:42 pm

I guess its a bit like the LH/TH situation for NH sides.

Do you put a LH on the bench or a TH? Or one thats not really either but does both of the duties you'd expect from either to an acceptable level......

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 3:49 pm

Comfort

You might be a fan but there is no way I'd let Ashton near the front row!!!

by RubyGuby Tue 29 May 2012, 3:57 pm

Jeff the only thing you can see is that Northampton have been a far superior club than Edinburgh and Ashton has benefitted accordingly - Gatland does not like Ashtons temperament and sees him as a divisive player - He will not be on the Lions tour on merit irrespective of his temperament thumbsup

by Comfort Tue 29 May 2012, 4:11 pm

maybe the lions dont need to take Ashton.

Just keep wiring the screens in the stadium to show a loop of his wonder try against them.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:20 pm

wonder try????

Is that the one where he goes 40 yards with noone in front of him, then steps one player to run another 40 yards with noone in front of him?

I'd put that try squarely in the hands of Lawes who takes a pass 5 metres out, has the pace to get outside the first Aus defender, draw the second before delivering a pass outside him, now that is quality that Mike Brown can only dream of!

by wales606 Tue 29 May 2012, 4:23 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:wonder try????

Is that the one where he goes 40 yards with noone in front of him, then steps one player to run another 40 yards with noone in front of him?

I'd put that try squarely in the hands of Lawes who takes a pass 5 metres out, has the pace to get outside the first Aus defender, draw the second before delivering a pass outside him, now that is quality that Mike Brown can only dream of!

by Comfort Tue 29 May 2012, 4:31 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:wonder try????

Is that the one where he goes 40 yards with noone in front of him, then steps one player to run another 40 yards with noone in front of him?

I'd put that try squarely in the hands of Lawes who takes a pass 5 metres out, has the pace to get outside the first Aus defender, draw the second before delivering a pass outside him, now that is quality that Mike Brown can only dream of!

aye, that'd be the one Wink

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:34 pm

Good, just so I know. There was also that wonder try in Cardiff, the 6 at the World cup, then 2 a few weeks ago.

by Comfort Tue 29 May 2012, 4:36 pm

so many memories already! Whistle

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 29 May 2012, 4:39 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Peter, Sugar

I'd stop getting so emotional, what I say might be critical of Ashtons current form and ability but it is not wumming.
But then I see a lot of people who can't argue coherently and just throw wumming accusations around...

No Im not accusing you of purposefully wuminmg, im just pointing out the one eyed cr@p you spout combined with your insistence on shifting the goal posts every time someone comes up with a counter argument tends to wind people up after a while and lead to debates as worthless and repetitive as this one.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:44 pm

Wheres this repetitive? There are actually quite a few good arguments for and against Ashton. Again you let your emotion get the better of you, have failed to put together a clear and consice argument, thrown an insult and will now inevitably run off!

How am I one eyed with regards to Ashton? Am I a huge fan of his? or do I hate him? Or have I mentioned that he's on the cusp of a possible lions squad, but have picked out flaws in his game, as I have Cuthbert, Visser and 1/2p.

Come on peter your better than this

by anotherworldofpain Tue 29 May 2012, 4:45 pm

wales606 wrote:Shane Williams never beat New Zealand but was the best winger in the world in 2008.

On what basis you make this claim? It seems you are see as subjective as the commentator who say Chris Ashton is best winger in the world.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:47 pm

pain

he hasn't claimed anything, he has stated facts and opinions.

Saying you prefer one player than the other isn't claiming he is best in the world.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:47 pm

Williams won player of the year 2008!!

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 29 May 2012, 4:49 pm

Bowe's a shoo-in.

Then 1, 2 or 3 of (in order of preference):
Chris 'the Splash no-more' Ashton (will definitely travel)
Alex 'I've done it for a season' Cuthbert
George 'I did it for a season' North

Poor old Tim 'McWho' Visser's got little chance as he hasn't even played for the mighty Scots yet - maybe 2017.

by thebluesmancometh Tue 29 May 2012, 4:51 pm

Really Barney?

I'm not so sure. Given that Gatland loves his big strike runners, and bases his backline around them I don't think he'll take Ashton on current form.

by wales606 Tue 29 May 2012, 4:52 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
wales606 wrote:Shane Williams never beat New Zealand but was the best winger in the world in 2008.

On what basis you make this claim? It seems you are see as subjective as the commentator who say Chris Ashton is best winger in the world.

How about being IRB player of the year in 2008?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRB_International_Player_of_the_Year#Winners_by_Country

So, not just the best winger, the best player aswell.

Just because an individual player hasn't beaten a team doesn't mean he isn't better than another.

Brian O'Driscoll has never beaten the All Blacks, but he has been the best 13 in the world for nearly a decade now (with occasional injuries/drops in form giving Conrad Smith top spot)

by anotherworldofpain Tue 29 May 2012, 11:21 pm

So I keep hear about it. But first everyone who know anything about rugby know that Richie McCaw was best player of 2008 and IRB too embarrass to make him award again! And so was a bit politics only. Such award always are a bit silly. Was one of best all blacks season ever and include grandslam over Wales. And Wales really win no thing but except usual post RWC granslam when all others country rebuilding their team for next one!

Second thing I also think you idea about ODriscoll not true either. He is a good center. But "best in the world for decade" is just silly talking again. A lot of SAZNAR mid fields outshine him in Lions and against Ireland. Also England have a quite usual 13 when they win world cup and best team in the world 1-15 in there too!

I think you get a bit parochial over there!

by mystiroakey Tue 29 May 2012, 11:22 pm

yeah you tell em mr pain

by anotherworldofpain Tue 29 May 2012, 11:45 pm

I think he go to sleeping already and wake up tomorrow and start off angry already when he reading my fight.

Sorry Wales606! But we just disagreeing about it.

by wales606 Wed 30 May 2012, 11:05 am

mystiroakey wrote:yeah you tell em ~~mr pain~~ Cyril

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 30 May 2012, 11:41 am

wales606 wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
wales606 wrote:Shane Williams never beat New Zealand but was the best winger in the world in 2008.

On what basis you make this claim? It seems you are see as subjective as the commentator who say Chris Ashton is best winger in the world.

How about being IRB player of the year in 2008?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRB_International_Player_of_the_Year#Winners_by_Country

So, not just the best winger, the best player aswell.

Just because an individual player hasn't beaten a team doesn't mean he isn't better than another.

Brian O'Driscoll has never beaten the All Blacks, but he has been the best 13 in the world for nearly a decade now (with occasional injuries/drops in form giving Conrad Smith top spot)

He was sh1te for most of 2009 though, and Mike frickin Blair got nominated for the IRB award. No question hes the only winger of his era to have been amongst the best in the world for that length of time though, a genuine legend of NH rugby. His career achievements are pretty amazing and hes gone out on a high despite looking like age was catching up with him at times over the last few years. Fully understand the hero worship on him, if only Cohen hadnt let his ego and stomach get the better of him.Players who can keep at the top through their entire careers are very rare, and they are the ones who should go down as genuine best players even if theres been individuals who are outplaying them in a given season.

BOD has rarely been the best 13 in the world at any one time, but you could argue that over the decade as a whole hes been the only one to consistently shine, expcet for when he hasnt. The best 13 in Europe over the previous decade discounting players who retired during that time (Greenwood) or were only good for a short period (that french chap) yeah OK. Again a real hero, but calling him the second best 13 in the world for a decade is a bit misleading... at times you could name 2 or 3 New Zealanders better than him but they havent been doing it as consistently over that length of time.

by **Biltong** Wed 30 May 2012, 11:50 am

The reality of a "best ever " player is in the eye of the beholder.

For Wales Shane Williams will always be a great, the same as JPR Williams, JJ Williams etc.

For Ireland Brian O'Driscoll was a star, he was a stand out player for his country and touted by some as the best 13 in the world and not by others.

Jaque Fourie for me is the best 13 of the professional era, few agree with me although many agree he is a great player.

The term "a great of the game" or "a great player" or "all time great" is all relative and subjective.

THe reality is you cannot by any means avaiable to us compare players of different era's with one another.

It is not possible, as these players don't play under the same laws, some played in the amateur era where others played in the professional era.

Let's use Gareth Edwards as an example, in his day playrs played with natural ability, unencumbered by todays rigid gameplans and coached ploys. All players these days have virtually zero percent fat, (unless of course we are talking about Weepu), but if that same player with natural talent only then had to compete in the highly competitive market of professional rugby could he stand out?

We will never know.

So different things or terminologies mean different things to different people, maybe I should start a different thread, for this differing opinion, alhtough it is just a little philosophy from my side.

by wales606 Wed 30 May 2012, 11:51 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
wales606 wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
wales606 wrote:Shane Williams never beat New Zealand but was the best winger in the world in 2008.

On what basis you make this claim? It seems you are see as subjective as the commentator who say Chris Ashton is best winger in the world.

How about being IRB player of the year in 2008?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRB_International_Player_of_the_Year#Winners_by_Country

So, not just the best winger, the best player aswell.

Just because an individual player hasn't beaten a team doesn't mean he isn't better than another.

Brian O'Driscoll has never beaten the All Blacks, but he has been the best 13 in the world for nearly a decade now (with occasional injuries/drops in form giving Conrad Smith top spot)

He was sh1te for most of 2009 though, and Mike frickin Blair got nominated for the IRB award. No question hes the only winger of his era to have been amongst the best in the world for that length of time though, a genuine legend of NH rugby. His career achievements are pretty amazing and hes gone out on a high despite looking like age was catching up with him at times over the last few years. Fully understand the hero worship on him, if only Cohen hadnt let his ego and stomach get the better of him.Players who can keep at the top through their entire careers are very rare, and they are the ones who should go down as genuine best players even if theres been individuals who are outplaying them in a given season.

BOD has rarely been the best 13 in the world at any one time, but you could argue that over the decade as a whole hes been the only one to consistently shine, expcet for when he hasnt. The best 13 in Europe over the previous decade discounting players who retired during that time (Greenwood) or were only good for a short period (that french chap) yeah OK. Again a real hero, but calling him the second best 13 in the world for a decade is a bit misleading... at times you could name 2 or 3 New Zealanders better than him but they havent been doing it as consistently over that length of time.

Thats why I said excluding drops in form and injuries when he was overtaken by players like Smith, Steyn, AAC etc. But overall, he has been the best 13 for the last decade and when on form he is better than any 13 has been for the last decade.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 30 May 2012, 11:52 am

Sometimes we look at players because they're in an under-performing team and assume that in a good team they would be even better. Parisse comes to mind immediately. Then we look at players in a good team and dismiss them because they are made to look good by their team mates.

For me, Shane Williams is in the middle camp playing in a team that often under-performed but still capable of backline wizardry. Put him in a weaker team and he'd probably still be able to dazzle. Put him in a stronger team and he might be replaced or not even make the side and so be less likely to show off that natural running / jigging talent.

Ultimately we get the idea that Wales are very proud of Shane Williams. Fair enough. We all have our favourite sons. Why not celebrate the guy. Where it gets hazy and often too much is to proclaim your favourite son as the world's best. Then you run into problems because you're opening it up to people who don't look upon this player with rose-tinted glasses and you're running the player up against their own favourites.

I think all you can say is that you wouldn't swap your player for all the women in Moscow and that way it's impossible to argue against.

by aucklandlaurie Wed 30 May 2012, 11:52 am

If the welsh want to call their winger the best in the World then let them go for it, It doesnt do anyone any harm, However they may at some stage like to compare his performance, one on one, against those who have marked him and then question if he is always the better player.

by Comfort Wed 30 May 2012, 1:03 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: If the welsh want to call their winger the best in the World then let them go for it, It doesnt do anyone any harm, However they may at some stage like to compare his performance, one on one, against those who have marked him and then question if he is always the better player.

This thread is about Chris Ashton being called the best winger in the world.

Im not sure how Shane has now been put in this position and its become another thread attacking the welsh.

To be fair though, everytime I've put my opinion forward on something that people havent agreed with, I've had the welsh world cup record brought up.

Getting fed up of this site. Its just wum after wum.

by beshocked Wed 30 May 2012, 1:09 pm

Best 13 in the world is Conrad Smith and has been for the last 2-3 years.

Most consistent 13 in the last decade is BOD though.

In regards to Ashton, he's got quite a decent try strike rate. He has 23 caps for his country and is 25 years old.

He is not one of the best wingers in the world but was good in 2010 and 2011 IMO.

by **Biltong** Wed 30 May 2012, 1:40 pm

beshocked wrote:Best 13 in the world is Conrad Smith and has been for the last 2-3 years.

Most consistent 13 in the last decade is BOD though.

In regards to Ashton, he's got quite a decent try strike rate. He has 23 caps for his country and is 25 years old.

He is not one of the best wingers in the world but was good in 2010 and 2011 IMO.

Didn't I just say it is Jaque Fourie? furious

by geoff998rugby Wed 30 May 2012, 1:44 pm

Comfort wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: If the welsh want to call their winger the best in the World then let them go for it, It doesnt do anyone any harm, However they may at some stage like to compare his performance, one on one, against those who have marked him and then question if he is always the better player.

This thread is about Chris Ashton being called the best winger in the world.

Im not sure how Shane has now been put in this position and its become another thread attacking the welsh.

To be fair though, everytime I've put my opinion forward on something that people havent agreed with, I've had the welsh world cup record brought up.

Getting fed up of this site. Its just wum after wum.

You point is rather flwaed in view of the fact one of your own countrymen has a active thread entitled
'Shane Williams is the best player ever'

That invites the comparisons being made

by anotherworldofpain Wed 30 May 2012, 1:46 pm

beshocked wrote:Most consistent 13 in the last decade is BOD though.

At last we agree! Hug

Consistently talk up about his ability....consistently injured...consistently under-achieved...consistently failed to deliver on the promise...consistently on the losing side...

I think true is BOD a great center at the club level. He has the success not achieve by many. But on international he just fail to step up there and always so disappointment when play with the Lions at representative international level.

by wales606 Wed 30 May 2012, 1:47 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most consistent 13 in the last decade is BOD though.

At last we agree!

Consistently talk up about his ability....consistently injured...consistently under-achieved...consistently failed to deliver on the promise...consistently on the losing side...

I think true is BOD a great center at the club level. He has the success not achieve by many. But on international he just fail to step up there and always so disappointment when play with the Lions at representative international level.

You sure know how to be a WUM

by Comfort Wed 30 May 2012, 2:02 pm

Geoff - another thread, about shane williams, where he's being discussed.

so why the condescending tone of comments has spilled onto this thread, on which i was quite enjoying a debate in the main, about Chris Ashton, his potential and where he is currently, with a sprinkle of the Lions thrown in.

Im just getting a little sick of every thread i get involved in becoming a wumfest.

Theres enough obvious wummy threads (such as the one you mentioned) for those condescending comments to be made, and aimed at the posters who make clartish claims on those threads. I dont see the need for it to spill over...

Thats my problem.

by **Biltong** Wed 30 May 2012, 2:03 pm

Confort.

by anotherworldofpain Wed 30 May 2012, 2:05 pm

Yes nice words from both posters.

I make this thread as place for serious discussion. There is allowed for saying your mind but not for the trying to make a reaction from the other poster and make everyone upset.

Please just talking your mind and everyone responding keep to your facts and opinion genuine please and not trying to start the silly fight.

It make me looking bad if you always start the fight by my threads.