Best Winger in the World

First topic message reminder :

So today I couldn't make it to go to Twickenham again because already I am a little bit wearsome of always the tube break down and train have "signal failure". So I stay home in the garden and watching on TV the barbarians play my new country of England.

And again I hear commentators mention that Chris Ashton is the best winger in the world and he prove today by score three more tries.

It is some good entertainment to watching the open game like this but I doubting that this kind of match up prove anything and maybe this commentator get a bit sun on his head.

Who agree with me about it?

George Carlin wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Visser, Nacewa are all better than Ashton IMO and that's before we look at the french and SH wingers - Its all pretty subjective but when I heard Barnes say best in the world!!! I thought what the feck is he on about and that comment against a pourous Baa Baas back line - Strange comment indeed, the guy was anonomous in the 6 Nations and some english fans were calling for him to be dropped.

Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Can we please reign in the generalisations a little bit? Ashton simply has not replicated the form of last season and that is an unfortunate fact. Could he get his form back? Of course. Will he? Probably not in time for the summer internationals. He wouldn't be my first name on the team sheet.

Pardon my ignorance but who is Nagusa? What's he done recently?

Who is Tekori?

Yes Ngwenya is quick, many players are. Doesn't mean he's better.

Medard is primarily a full back.

What's Huget done recently?

Of those you mention only Malzieu,Bowe,Williams and North stand out.

It helps that Ashton is actually a starting winger for his country and plays for quality English clubs.

If you said Matanavou that would be a better bet.

Malzieu is a good shout bluesman but like Ashton he went missing in the big matches this 6N.

Visser is the next John Kirwan...

Before being tested at international level Nick de Luca was Scotland's answer to BOD, Rob Dewey was supposedly Tana Umaga in a kilt and Max Evans was a bigger, stronger Shane.

Visser has every chance of being a good international player, and perhaps one of the best. Let him get that far first though before we start mentioning his name in these conversations.

I heard McVisser is changing his name to Visser again and wnats to play for the Boks in the 2015 RWC.

Jeff. I'll mention who I want and how I want mate and your entitled to your opinion - We could rattle off 100 english were gonna be's to. I'm not from this fellas chosen nation so there's an element of objectivity - but mark my words he is a destoyer on the field. Perhaps you'd be better off telling people to calm down about Wade - I think after yesterday they've started calming down about Farrell

I wish people would calm down a bit about Wade, another one with undoubted potential but by the tone of some you'd think he already had 50 test tries, surprised his name hasn't cropped up on here to be honest.

George Carlin wrote: Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Nagusa you cannot be serious !!!

Someone who does 1 brilliant things and then 9 poor things.

Beshocked - he is a Pacific Island player who played for Ulster for a couple of years and then went to France.
His assets are strength, speed and he is a nice guy.
However he is a headless chicken, he has no idea how to defend, poor tackler and cant kick at all

Leading NH winger !!! - he wouldn't make my top 20.
If he came back to Ulster he would be 4th choice behind - Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble.

kia your right! I don't think he's the best in the world but he's one of my fav's. He can be devestating, like North and great to watch.

For me Ashton is a strong finisher when the defence gives him a gap and the FB is out of position. He will always score tries against weak defences, and the odd against better teams but on a lions team I want game changers in every position, as well as a strong mind set! North and Bowe are far ahead of Ashton IMO, as is 1/2p/Kearney (both will travel and be used on the wing I'm sure). TBH Ashton wouldn't be the first name on my England team sheet, there are 3/4 wingers who are in far better form this year!

To be honest there are very few players who could universally be called the world's best in their position. Dan Carter usually gets that accolade though this year he might not even play, albeit injury related.

I think sometimes we take these individual titles too seriously. Rugby is a team game and frankly being the best team in the world is the real goal. Obviously one one team can be called the best so we try to all have peeing contests who has the best club, the best position, the best coach, the best fans, the best stadium, the best girl who sings the anthem and I get it. It's dressed up as debate and it happens everywhere. I often hear Kiwi commentators say Richie is the best in his position. I think at the end of the day you're happy to have certain players in your team because of the impact they have on the players around them rather than the individual moments of brilliance. Biltong quipped that we don't know how good the SA wingers really are but that just illustrates my point that individual players are nothing without the players around them. Too often though when we analyse who is the best, we tend to isolate the individual players without taking into account the players around them.

It wasn't a quip Kia, I was being serious.

I know mate but they didn't know that I knew that you knew but... they do now.

a semi-retired Sivivatu still run better lines than Ashton. he's also a decent defender and team-player.
Matavanou is a good and fast finisher but still a big liability in defense. Clerc is not physical nor powerful but still one of the best to read the game. Timoci Nagusa is another Fidjan who scored 11 tries in 18 games for Montpellier for his 1st season (and has improved )
Juan Imhoff, the argentinian revelation from last RWC who now plays for racing is a fantastic player to watch on time to time and has plenty of flair.
the above are in my opinion above the ashton I saw in the 6N (havent seen much of his recent Ap form though)
Even David Smith when he's inspired is better than Ashton !

Cuthbert is world class

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I know mate but they didn't know that I knew that you knew but... they do now.

In fairness HERSH he had a better 6N than Ashton...

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote: Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Nagusa you cannot be serious !!!

Someone who does 1 brilliant things and then 9 poor things.

Beshocked - he is a Pacific Island player who played for Ulster for a couple of years and then went to France.
His assets are strength, speed and he is a nice guy.
However he is a headless chicken, he has no idea how to defend, poor tackler and cant kick at all

Leading NH winger !!! - he wouldn't make my top 20.
If he came back to Ulster he would be 4th choice behind - Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble.

Clearly you haven't watched him in the past couple of seasons Geoff...
A bit like Newcastle fans saying that Visser must be terrible because...

Our problem is with savea and gear likely we suddenly move away from the 3 fullbacks system we had with dagg jane and kahui where both wings were strong under the high ball and defensively.

Expect both wings to be tested in that area and I think thats our weakest point- defence on the sidelines. Gear isnt strong there and Savea is work in progress at best defensively.

A team like SA will exploit that. I dont think Ireland will appreciate that subtlety enough to think its important plus theyll be defending most of the time.

George Carlin wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote: Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Nagusa you cannot be serious !!!

Someone who does 1 brilliant things and then 9 poor things.

Beshocked - he is a Pacific Island player who played for Ulster for a couple of years and then went to France.
His assets are strength, speed and he is a nice guy.
However he is a headless chicken, he has no idea how to defend, poor tackler and cant kick at all

Leading NH winger !!! - he wouldn't make my top 20.
If he came back to Ulster he would be 4th choice behind - Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble.

Clearly you haven't watched him in the past couple of seasons Geoff...
A bit like Newcastle fans saying that Visser must be terrible because...

Seen him plenty of times thanks.

Spectacular and a real crowd pleaser but his game is full of holes

Imagine Savea & Gear againt North & Cuthbert. That would be an interesting contest on the sidelines. Tries galore no doubt.

Has this turned into a Tim Visser lovefest yet?

The question now is would Ashton be able to beat back the opposition to earn a start for the Lions? At this moment, with everyone in their current vein of form I'd say no. I'd have North, Bowe and Cuthbert all ahead of him, though that could change by next year by all means. Not Visser yet as he still has to prove himself internationally and even if you were to judge purely on club form Ashton has scored more tries.

Bit of a non-article tbh. Barnes is being his customary reactionary and straw-grasping self, trying to establish in his own head that England have something better than everybody else. In this case he's well off the mark. Anyone else scores against the Baabaa's and it's generally seen as routine and quickly forgotten.

anotherworldofpain wrote:So today I couldn't make it to go to Twickenham again because already I am a little bit wearsome of always the tube break down and train have "signal failure". So I stay home in the garden and watching on TV the barbarians play my new country of England.

And again I hear commentators mention that Chris Ashton is the best winger in the world and he prove today by score three more tries.

It is some good entertainment to watching the open game like this but I doubting that this kind of match up prove anything and maybe this commentator get a bit sun on his head.

Who agree with me about it?

dont worry pal the tubes and that would have been fine. you should have gone and saw the best winger play whilst you had a chance

Ashton has scored more tries than Visser???

Someone has to check that out for me, Visser is Rabo top try scorer isn't he? And Ashton scored none in 6 months!

by the way- kiwi if your about !!!!

RubyGuby wrote:North, Bowe, Cuthbert, Visser, Nacewa are all better than Ashton IMO and that's before we look at the french and SH wingers - Its all pretty subjective but when I heard Barnes say best in the world!!! I thought what the feck is he on about and that comment against a pourous Baa Baas back line - Strange comment indeed, the guy was anonomous in the 6 Nations and some english fans were calling for him to be dropped.

That's George 'forgotten how to score' North and Tim 'haven't even had a game for Scotland yet' Visser. Oh dear.

Bowe I'll give you.

I'm not sure if George has forgotten how to score, he has scored a few and been the game changer in a few recently. He certainly hasn't gone 6 months without one

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ashton has scored more tries than Visser???

Someone has to check that out for me, Visser is Rabo top try scorer isn't he? And Ashton scored none in 6 months!

I think so. Ashton has scored in 6 months, just not for England. Doesn't he still score fairly regularly for the Saints? And unless I'm mistaken he's scored close to 100 tries in his PL career which, either way, is much more than Visser has managed in the Rabo.

ashton is a good player- just jealousy going on

Ashton didn't score for Northampton till Feb I think it was and this is Visser's 3rd year as Rabo top try scorer.

Hang on let me check...

To be fair Ashton is going to struggle to score in the Rabbo.

Visser has scored 17 this season 12 in the Rabo.

Ashton has scored 6 prem tries.

If I was picking between Ashton and Visser for a Lions spot at this exact moment, to be honest I'd say Ashton. Even I'm not so anti-English as to say Visser wins it

Ashton has scored 92 prem tries for the Saints and 15 for England. Visser has scored about 35 tries for Edinburgh and has yet to play international rugby. I'm not an Ashton fan but it's clear to me which one I'd pick. Of course, if Ashton continued to look dire in competitive games for England and Visser made a promising start to his Scotland career then I'd probably Visser but we won't know until he's actually won a cap or two.

That's not even considering Visser's questionable claim to representing the Lions. Another Riki Flutey anyone?

Have to agree with you knowsit, but for me Bowe, Cuthbert and North are ahead of Ashton at present, then 1/2p and Kearney, maybe even Fitzgerald and Trimble. But then I wouldve been playing a few ahead of him in the England team lately!

Exactly. Forgot about Halfpenny, so that's Ashton at a possible fifth in my present pecking order. Kearney is 100% a fullback for me, easily first choice on current form if I'm honest. Don't know about Fitz and Trimble, both talented but neither able to hold down a regular starting spot for Ireland for various reasons.

Fitz has had a lot of injuries all season mind, thats why. And Trimble has been great for Ulster but not so great for Ireland.

If Sexton plays 10 Kearney is a shoe in, however if Priestland does (long shot) 1/2p will have to play for his goal kicking.

Either way we have 2 top FB's who can both cover the wing very very well too. A back 3 of 1/2 and Kearney on the wings with Foden at FB would be very tasty all round!

George Carlin wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote: Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Nagusa you cannot be serious !!!

Someone who does 1 brilliant things and then 9 poor things.

Beshocked - he is a Pacific Island player who played for Ulster for a couple of years and then went to France.
His assets are strength, speed and he is a nice guy.
However he is a headless chicken, he has no idea how to defend, poor tackler and cant kick at all

Leading NH winger !!! - he wouldn't make my top 20.
If he came back to Ulster he would be 4th choice behind - Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble.

Clearly you haven't watched him in the past couple of seasons Geoff...
A bit like Newcastle fans saying that Visser must be terrible because...

No Newcastle fan has slated Vissers ability...what we have slated is the fact he seems to change his country loyalties as much as he changes his duds!

If the game was now and all were fit my Lions back three would be Kearney, Bowe, North

I agree though if I had to choose between Ashton and Visser it would be Ashton. He has played at a higher level simple as that.

It all depends on how Gatland picks the squad. He might decide that if he has Halfpenny doubled up as wing and fullback he might well take an extra centre for example or something along those lines. If they are fit I would almost certainly pick Kearney, Halfpenny, Bowe, Cuthbert, North. Would Gatland perhaps feel he should take Foden as well instead of another out and out wing. It depends what tactics he plays- for example Kearney and Halfpenny could start so there would only be space for one from Bowe, Cuthbert and North there on the other wing.

That said, every year there is at least one 'bolter'. Fans from every country will be putting forward someone that comes from nowhere to get a spot (for my money, I would go with Madigan at 10) so from that point of view Visser could be an option. He has a good strikerate, he will be relatively unknown come tour time. It all depends on the Six Nations of course. Anyone who be playing awfully poorly, or out of their skins. Maybe Ashton will score five tries next tournament and North or Cuthbert or Bowe might be completely out of form.

Ashton has a very good eye for finding space and popping up on players shoulders in demand of the ball. It almost certainly comes from his league days.

Most union wingers do not do this, they rely on being given the ball in space and using their pace to make the yards/score the tries.

Ashton often scores most of his tries due to his good and intelligent work... but he also has the goods and the pace to score standard wing tries.

When on form he is a very useful player and world class.

The thing with Ashton like Bowe and North is that they are proven try scorers... they always get a try and very rarely go may games without. Players like this will always tour with the Lions because they are sure things.

The Lions tour is too far away anyhow.. 12 months is a long time, injuries will occur, players will go in and out of form, some will be dropped etc.

Visser is too unproven at this moment... club form is great but its nothing compared to test rugby and therefore its a risk... especially if you were to take him off a player who come the Lions tour may have 25 odd tries in 30+ games. Its the same with Cuthbert, 1 season is too soon esp with his questionable defence.... lets give these players another season to verify their credentials.

Some may question Ashtons ability to beat a player one on one, or create something from nothing but they are neglecting that this isnt what his game is about. What Ashton does is track play and turn half chances and breaks into tries. This is an incredible skill that very few of the other Lions wingers possess and something that cannot and should not be overlooked. He would work well with someone like Bowe (as Monye did in 09) or North.

Frosties

I think you've summed him up the best of all there mate.

He make top try scorer for world cup and only get a chance to the quarter final when England go out badly. You might say he went absent in the pressure but also that is some good achieving to get top equal tries.

It used to be said when a winger scored a lot of tries,Who was his centres?
Ashton is like many wings a good finisher,latterly Joe Rokococo was`nt great at finishing.But his workrate was tremendous and he created chances for his team mates.Zac Guildford was showing the same qualities in the RWC before he was injured.Ashton may have scored tries inthe RWC,but Neither he nor England did it against Scotland or Argentina the hardest teams to score against.

Hold on. Joe Rokocoko wasn't great at finishing. Sorry what planet are you on. He might have sliped towards the end. But in his hey day he could beat most wingers on the outside (just ask Wales, England, France, Australia, England or South Africa), take a garry owen (e.g. vs England) and had enough power to go through 4 or more players to score (e.g. SA). I'm not suggesting he was the greatest, but he was a world class finisher.

geoff999rugby wrote:
I agree though if I had to choose between Ashton and Visser it would be Ashton. He has played at a higher level simple as that.

If that's your rationale then by extrapolation you'd rather have Bananaman over Visser too.

I also love the constant claims that playing for the Barbarians against England is apparently a lesser level than a straight test. I also note that nobody seems to substantiate this with anything approaching common sense.

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

George Carlin wrote: Let me add a few from the Top 14 - I wouldn't say Ashton is better than Nagusa (whom I think is the best in the NH along with Bowe, Williams and North), Huget, Malzieu or Medard and whilst his tracking is great, he isn't as quick as guys like Ngwenya or Tekori.

Nagusa you cannot be serious !!!

Someone who does 1 brilliant things and then 9 poor things.

Beshocked - he is a Pacific Island player who played for Ulster for a couple of years and then went to France.
His assets are strength, speed and he is a nice guy.
However he is a headless chicken, he has no idea how to defend, poor tackler and cant kick at all

Leading NH winger !!! - he wouldn't make my top 20.
If he came back to Ulster he would be 4th choice behind - Bowe, Gilroy and Trimble.

Clearly you haven't watched him in the past couple of seasons Geoff...
A bit like Newcastle fans saying that Visser must be terrible because...

Seen him plenty of times thanks.

Spectacular and a real crowd pleaser but his game is full of holes

Clearly. The most tries Trimble has scored in a season is 7. And that was in 2006. Nagusa is on 11 this season.

Please feel free to talk for a while about the various intangibles that make Gilroy and Trimble clearly and demonstrably better, though.

you talk about common sense yet you put names in the lads mouth.

Its quite simple- he is not arguing for any player that has had an international cap above visser. He is saying that ashton is a top winger and has proven himself at the highest level - visser hasnt.

Is that simple enough dude?

mystiroakey wrote:you talk about common sense yet you put names in the lads mouth.

Its quite simple- he is not arguing for any player that has had an international cap above visser. He is saying that ashton is a top winger and has proven himself at the highest level - visser hasnt.

Is that simple enough dude?

Thank the lord you're here, Oakey.

Why you all tetchy?