Who should start at 10 for England against South Africa?

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According to ESPN Toby Flood got through a whole day of training for England today and apparently looked sharp and injury free. Who do you think should start for England in the first test? Bare in mind the performances of Hodgson and Farrell at the weekend.

What dooes worry me a little from both England and SA's point of view, the coaches are trying to find a balance.

On one hand they are both new at their job, they both need to rebuild a sqaud (irrespective of whether it is for 2015 or not), so how do they go about it.

Meyer wants SA to retain their stranglehold on england and extend the winning streak to 10 matches end of series, and Lancaster wants to halt the streak by winning the series.

So now they both sit with a conundrum, do they go all out for the most settled squad with the most experienced players and hope that a defensive game with mainly 10 man rugby will do the job?

Or do they chance their arm with some newbies who might just be better talented and will create more chance to attack?

It seems both might go for option 1, but then the question becomes, when do you actually start experimenting and giving these youngsters an opportunity to prove their worth against tougher opponents?

You can only wait so long and then you have to rebuild. The fact is there is never a right time.

Hopefully for our and england's sake both coaches have already formulated how they will evolve their team's gameplans over the next year, and for now they are just looking for a first series win.

Easy.

If you expect our forwards to smash their bok counterparts and provide a constant stream of fast front foot ball (extremely optimistic - will not happen) - Hodgson

If you expect to either be on the back foot at forward and want to shore up the defensive 10 channel and want to kick and/or want to play 10 man rugby (very pessimistic) - Farrell is your man.

If you expect parity at forward and some occassions when we will be in good attacking positions with fast ball but also need a guy who will direct traffic and impose structure ( realistic will happen) - Flood

Flood it is. 73+% seem to think so.

p.s That said if we're 10+ points up with 10 to go who better than Farell to bring on at 10 to shut it down?

Flood has been the form 10 since the 6N in the AP as a whole, he's comfortably overshadowed the other other English 10s and as long as he's fully fit he should start with Farrell on the bench.

biltongbek wrote:What dooes worry me a little from both England and SA's point of view, the coaches are trying to find a balance.

On one hand they are both new at their job, they both need to rebuild a sqaud (irrespective of whether it is for 2015 or not), so how do they go about it.

Meyer wants SA to retain their stranglehold on england and extend the winning streak to 10 matches end of series, and Lancaster wants to halt the streak by winning the series.

So now they both sit with a conundrum, do they go all out for the most settled squad with the most experienced players and hope that a defensive game with mainly 10 man rugby will do the job?

Or do they chance their arm with some newbies who might just be better talented and will create more chance to attack?

It seems both might go for option 1, but then the question becomes, when do you actually start experimenting and giving these youngsters an opportunity to prove their worth against tougher opponents?

You can only wait so long and then you have to rebuild. The fact is there is never a right time.

Hopefully for our and england's sake both coaches have already formulated how they will evolve their team's gameplans over the next year, and for now they are just looking for a first series win.

In our case it has tended to historically be injury which pushes forward our progress as a side.

That being said, Lancaster is clearly voluntarily accelerating the process.

Meyer talks like an arch conservative but will be forced to select newbies by retirement and injury.

Triangulation wrote:

p.s That said if we're 10+ points up with 10 to go who better than Farell to bring on at 10 to shut it down?

Wilko?

jeffwinger wrote:That two-on-one was a bad mistake, but everyone makes mistakes. Flood has made plenty in an England shirt. Later in the BaaBaa's game, Farrell combined really nicely with Hartley and his quick hands put Ashton in for one of his tries in the left corner. This was an example of perfectly good offensive which went largely unnoticed. Another example I highlighted earlier was the chip ahead for JJ. That's 2 legitimate assists in one match.

Thing is I saw the pass to Ashton as being too early again, but Ashton had the pace to make it home anyway. The defender who Farrell should have drawn in still nearly made the tackle on Ashton. Farrell also threw a number or rubbish passes elsewhere in the game behind the man. His chip was good though.

Thing is I saw the pass to Ashton as being too early again, but Ashton had the pace to make it home anyway. The defender who Farrell should have drawn in still nearly made the tackle on Ashton. Farrell also threw a number or rubbish passes elsewhere in the game behind the man. His chip was good though.

+1 on that. Farrell's passing game was not up to scratch, his kicking was pretty good (missing shots at the posts aside). The more he plays 10 for England the more confident he seems in giving the passes and playing a more attacking game. It's just whether England can afford to have him slowly developing in the 10 slot on a tour to SA.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Flood has been the form 10 since the 6N in the AP as a whole, he's comfortably overshadowed the other other English 10s and as long as he's fully fit he should start with Farrell on the bench.

Where was Flood in the AP semi and final?

He needs game time.

Flood's injury status is still ??

Where was Flood in the AP semi and final?

He needs game time.

Flood's injury status is still ??

His ankle is fine, he picked up a minor groin strain in kicking practice the day before the AP Final and was pulled out on the day. Lancaster said he wouldn't take him if he wasn't fully fit and Flood is on the plane so one must presume he is alright to play. I'm not sure Flood is in particular need of game time, he's had a decent rest period but was in cracking form before that and as long as he measures up in training he is the best starting candidate England have. If he isn't 100% in training then the mid week game will be best for him but against the Boks we can't afford to have no attacking game plan.

He is reportedly training and looking sharp in training. Case closed.

For all the times Flood has looked like he's about to make the role permanently his own, there are an equal amount of games where he's looked wishy washy and indecisive.
Farrell got given his spurs in a tough 6n against tough opposition and put his mark down.
For me, it's Farell's to lose now!

I would be amazed of flood is not first choice but I admit that I think Lancaster would be unlikely to change his six nations team.

Can you be both amazed if he doesn't play, but still expect him not to play?

There's no doubt in my mind that Flood has to win his place back, starting by just getting back onto the bench. Farrell will start at 10 in the first test.

I'd prefer Robshaw started at 10 over Farrell, at least he has an understanding of attacking play.

Flood has to start

There's no doubt in my mind that Flood has to win his place back, starting by just getting back onto the bench. Farrell will start at 10 in the first test.

Sadly this will probably be true, which is frankly annoying as both Hodgson and Farrell were given a lesson in gain line attacking play by Flood's 19 year old understudy in the AP Semi Final. I'd be very doubtful of our backs chances for scoring tries if Farrell started, then again the Saffas would have to be on their best behaviour in their own half.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

I'd be very doubtful of our backs chances for scoring tries if Farrell started, then again the Saffas would have to be on their best behaviour in their own half.

And the Poms have to be on their best behaviour in the saffas half too

I have always had some reservations about Flood, but given both Charlie's and Farrell's displays at present he would have to start the first test for me. I would just hope he's learnt from the last time he played against SA and doesn't keep passing hospital balls to people.

If Farrell starts we can look forward to a score sheet of

M Steyn (9)

O Farrell (3)

That last game of the season for Sarries against Newcastle would be an obvious template for the enjoyment levels and attacking prowess.

What happens now if his Dad comes back into the coaching set-up? Will he ever be dropped?

How is Farrell supposed to grow into the flyhalf role if he;s slated and not backed by the English? The kid looks very promising and he earned his chances to wear the white 10. Flood had his shot and didnt nail down the jersey , its Farrell's turn now .

Sorry Bulls but some of us didn't particularly want him there in the first place. Don't get me wrong, i've consistently said he's got a lot of talent, excellent place kicking game and temperament.

At present though I don't think he's ready to be England's 10. If we were playing the game 15 years ago maybe, but today's FH requires a more rounded game with attacking instinct and flat pass. I'd rather see Freddie Burns or George Ford invested in as the youth option with Flood as the man in possession.

Would SA start a 20 year old at FH who doesn't play there for his club?! Lambie is a far better FH currently than Farrell and he may not even make it into the XV!

Farrell has prooved his worth allready. unles she isnt fully match fit then he has to start, i am not sure lambie is better or not but that is really immaterial- farrell is an english player and if he is good enough to get into england he should play-how does another player from another team come into play?

Farrell has started 3 games for England, in internationals, at 10. In each he has demonstrated his strengths:

composure
goal kicking
tackling

and his weaknesses:

reading the game
option taking
passing


Thus we have seen him a few times fail to spot 5 on 2 overlaps and kicking or passing poorly and cramping the team for space.

He is not a huge attacking threat, nor someone who will spark flowing attacks.

BUT

He is organised, consistent and able to enact the sort of gameplan Lancaster will ask for.

He will be selected and Hodgson will be on the bench. The Leicester pair will get their chance to shine in the midweek game.