Banning in rugby??

Why do club ban's effect international and vice versa?- Shouldnt players just received a 3
game club ban or something for commiting a club offence.

Also why are the bans in a measurement of time?

its not consitant in its self. players could get away with hardly
missing any games, yet someone else banned for the same time could miss loads of games.


how does any of this make sense?

Just answered you on the other thread.

I agree bans should be for a specified number of games, not a period of time, when a pplayer recieves a ban at the end of season it could effect that he isn't penalised in any way if he isn't going to play club rugby in the near future.

I also agree if you are banned whilst playing a test, your ban should be appliccable to tests not Club rugby and vice versa.

the game needs consitancy in everything. Not just consitancy in judging offences but also consistant rules

Mystiroakey if you are going to talk about the word consistency at least spell it right please.

Real pet hate of mine when people talk about consistency but spell it wrong.

At least I get it wrong every time

biltongbek wrote:Just answered you on the other thread.

I agree bans should be for a specified number of games, not a period of time, when a pplayer recieves a ban at the end of season it could effect that he isn't penalised in any way if he isn't going to play club rugby in the near future.

I also agree if you are banned whilst playing a test, your ban should be appliccable to tests not Club rugby and vice versa.

The real problem with this is how do you define games? If a player is on the fringe of the test squad do we count mid season internationals they may well not have been selected for? Do we count LV cup games? What about sevens tournaments? What about A team fixtures? England have a whole bunch of midweek fixtures, do you count them as well as the weekend tests?
Its much more complex in the North where the seasons is much less structured, but the point is the same. You will still get apparent unfairness.

Club V country bans...would we be Ok with Callum Clarke playing on the England tour because his ban for breaking an opponents arm was in a club game? Extreme example of course but its just seems incongruous to have players who are banned able to play in some games not others. Its the player who is being punished not the club/country

It does seem ridiculous though that a disgrace like Clarke will serve a good chunk of his ban through the summer break.

I notice the Hayman ban has been set to cover the start of the French pre season games, it seems they have discounted the dead period in the summer for him...a sensible compromise.

Bans have to be universal to all levels. The point of the ban is that the player has offended in Rugby irrespective of what level it was committed at. It is not right if someone gets banned for gouging in a Test and then is free to blind someone the next week in a club game. What constitutes a Test ban? Who knows if the player would have even been selected, so any level specific sanction would only be a ban on selection not on actual playing.

Having said that the time bans should probably include some element of game specification. For example the suspension would be from all rugby for a period of X weeks and specific Y fixtures.

Should we ban bans?

... or ban banning Banahan?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Just answered you on the other thread.

I agree bans should be for a specified number of games, not a period of time, when a pplayer recieves a ban at the end of season it could effect that he isn't penalised in any way if he isn't going to play club rugby in the near future.

I also agree if you are banned whilst playing a test, your ban should be appliccable to tests not Club rugby and vice versa.

The real problem with this is how do you define games? If a player is on the fringe of the test squad do we count mid season internationals they may well not have been selected for? Do we count LV cup games? What about sevens tournaments? What about A team fixtures? England have a whole bunch of midweek fixtures, do you count them as well as the weekend tests?
Its much more complex in the North where the seasons is much less structured, but the point is the same. You will still get apparent unfairness.

Club V country bans...would we be Ok with Callum Clarke playing on the England tour because his ban for breaking an opponents arm was in a club game? Extreme example of course but its just seems incongruous to have players who are banned able to play in some games not others. Its the player who is being punished not the club/country

It does seem ridiculous though that a disgrace like Clarke will serve a good chunk of his ban through the summer break.

I notice the Hayman ban has been set to cover the start of the French pre season games, it seems they have discounted the dead period in the summer for him...a sensible compromise.

Peter n my view it is simple, if it was a club game, then it is a ban on playing for your club, no matter whether HC or Rabo/Aviva etc.

If it is representing your nation, then it is representing your nation.

biltongbek wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Just answered you on the other thread.

I agree bans should be for a specified number of games, not a period of time, when a pplayer recieves a ban at the end of season it could effect that he isn't penalised in any way if he isn't going to play club rugby in the near future.

I also agree if you are banned whilst playing a test, your ban should be appliccable to tests not Club rugby and vice versa.

The real problem with this is how do you define games? If a player is on the fringe of the test squad do we count mid season internationals they may well not have been selected for? Do we count LV cup games? What about sevens tournaments? What about A team fixtures? England have a whole bunch of midweek fixtures, do you count them as well as the weekend tests?
Its much more complex in the North where the seasons is much less structured, but the point is the same. You will still get apparent unfairness.

Club V country bans...would we be Ok with Callum Clarke playing on the England tour because his ban for breaking an opponents arm was in a club game? Extreme example of course but its just seems incongruous to have players who are banned able to play in some games not others. Its the player who is being punished not the club/country

It does seem ridiculous though that a disgrace like Clarke will serve a good chunk of his ban through the summer break.

I notice the Hayman ban has been set to cover the start of the French pre season games, it seems they have discounted the dead period in the summer for him...a sensible compromise.

Peter n my view it is simple, if it was a club game, then it is a ban on playing for your club, no matter whether HC or Rabo/Aviva etc.

If it is representing your nation, then it is representing your nation.

Right but my point is what club games count? Irish players have a Province and a club for example.
Do we count midweek tour fixtures? Would the Barabrians clash have counted as an England game for a player playing in the Jeff final still waiting for a ban from the 6 nations? A 12 game ban from internationals could span an entire year ( the best part of a decade for a Fijian), but only a third of a domestic season.

I just dont see how its workable.

I think it is extremely workable.

It doesn't matter the format of the game, it is all dependant on which team you represented.

If it was a club game, then your ban is particular to that team, so whether you played for Leinster as an example in any format, the ban is playing for Leinster.

If your ban is for Ireland for example, whether it is a midweek game or test on a saturday it doesn't matter.

It is simple and concise.

There should/could be no debate about it.

So if I gouge out someones face in a Barbarians game Im welcome to play next week for a different side?

biltongbek wrote:I think it is extremely workable.

It doesn't matter the format of the game, it is all dependant on which team you represented.

If it was a club game, then your ban is particular to that team, so whether you played for Leinster as an example in any format, the ban is playing for Leinster.

If your ban is for Ireland for example, whether it is a midweek game or test on a saturday it doesn't matter.

It is simple and concise.

There should/could be no debate about it.

I can see the point of that idea for minor offences.

But if someone's guilty of serious foul play (eye-gouging etc) I don't want them anywhere near any rugby field for a while. Obviously doping offences trump everything too.

If someone is banned from driving - should it matter whether it was an HGV or a Fiat 500 they were stopped in?

Kiwi,
I agree. I was about to type the same thing.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I think it is extremely workable.

It doesn't matter the format of the game, it is all dependant on which team you represented.

If it was a club game, then your ban is particular to that team, so whether you played for Leinster as an example in any format, the ban is playing for Leinster.

If your ban is for Ireland for example, whether it is a midweek game or test on a saturday it doesn't matter.

It is simple and concise.

There should/could be no debate about it.

I can see the point of that idea for minor offences.

But if someone's guilty of serious foul play (eye-gouging etc) I don't want them anywhere near any rugby field for a while. Obviously doping offences trump everything too.

I can understand your reasoning, you could argue if it is deleiberate foul play under intention to "harm' physically like gouging, biting, etc the ban must include a proviso for "any and all formats of rugby union"

"The real problem with this is how do you define games? If a player is on the fringe of the test squad do we count mid season internationals they may well not have been selected for? Do we count LV cup games? What about sevens tournaments? What about A team fixtures? England have a whole bunch of midweek fixtures, do you count them as well as the weekend tests?"

lets look at football and that system incorporates your ideas and answers them

we have league bans, cup bans, european bans, international bans(friendlies are not included).

basically w rooney is banned for two games- he could still play friendlies, the ban is only in place for inetrnational competitive fixtures.

Football works much better , and although much of its running sucks, i believe it has banning correct

The Great Aukster wrote:If someone is banned from driving - should it matter whether it was an HGV or a Fiat 500 they were stopped in?

Depends what drivers license they carry.

If its a Fiat 500 they are far more likely to be an attractive woman and not get reported in the first place.

biltongbek wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:If someone is banned from driving - should it matter whether it was an HGV or a Fiat 500 they were stopped in?

Depends what drivers license they carry.

being banned from driving is a criminal offence, i suppose we could apply criminal charges in sport(racism , abh, etc) in the same way but not normal fouls that in my mind should only apply to the level the offence was commited

mystiroakey wrote:"The real problem with this is how do you define games? If a player is on the fringe of the test squad do we count mid season internationals they may well not have been selected for? Do we count LV cup games? What about sevens tournaments? What about A team fixtures? England have a whole bunch of midweek fixtures, do you count them as well as the weekend tests?"

lets look at football and that system incorporates your ideas and answers them

we have league bans, cup bans, european bans, international bans(friendlies are not included).

basically w rooney is banned for two games- he could still play friendlies, the ban is only in place for inetrnational competitive fixtures.

Football works much better , and although much of its running sucks, i believe it has banning correct

In soccer though bans over 3 weeks are pretty uncommon. In Rugby 4 is the norm, with 10 plus not being unusual.
Also in soccer multiple games in a week is the very common, in rugby its rare for players to start 2 games in a week (OK sometimes 5 days apart but that usually means no games for the following 7 day period).
International teams all play more regularly in soccer as well, I just find it very hard to imagine banning a Fijian from internationals for 3 years for what would otherwise be a 4 week ban.
The system also has plenty of detractors in the football world.

I prefer the footy system. Keep it seperate.

do fijians really only play 1 international a year- if that is the case then something must be done about it- but that is a seperate problem

I like the football system.

Usually it is competition bans. So international bans, European bans, domestic league bans.

However for more serious offenses they have global bans which ban you from all levels of the game.

I think it works very well.

red_stag wrote:I like the football system.

Usually it is competition bans. So international bans, European bans, domestic league bans.

However for more serious offenses they have global bans which ban you from all levels of the game.

I think it works very well.

like that a lot.

red_stag wrote:I like the football system.

Usually it is competition bans. So international bans, European bans, domestic league bans.

However for more serious offenses they have global bans which ban you from all levels of the game.

I think it works very well.

Yeah, that works. Fairly minor club bans shouldn't mean that a player is in danger of missing an international tour or a major international competition.

Obviously serious offences such as gouging are a different thing.

Bans should mean games not weeks too.

sugarNspikes wrote:

red_stag wrote:I like the football system.

Usually it is competition bans. So international bans, European bans, domestic league bans.

However for more serious offenses they have global bans which ban you from all levels of the game.

I think it works very well.

Yeah, that works. Fairly minor club bans shouldn't mean that a player is in danger of missing an international tour or a major international competition.

Obviously serious offences such as gouging are a different thing.

Bans should mean games not weeks too.

Yes I agree. I dont see that it is so hard to implement or that there is really any downside to it.

It means the guy who does something cynical and a bit dangerous to help the team progress in say the ERC quarter final won't just miss a few league matches but would miss the semi and maybe the final if he is cited.

But equally the guy who does something extremely wrong and is red carded for serious foul play sits out rugby for several weeks/months.

yep