Re: Irish Summer Tour Squad

by **rodders** Tue May 29, 2012 3:04 pm

First topic message reminder :

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I wouldn't get impatient with people for having to post things 3 times. People must have posted the same thing to you at least 50 times and you are none the wiser..

Sin mate, read what Boyne has said again. It makes perfect sense to me but once again you don't seem able to repond to a specific point with a specific answer.

No one asked you who you would select, so I don't know why you need to repost it.

Boyne is pointing out that no one is arguing for Tuohys inclusion at Ryans expense so why are you comparing them?

by Artful_Dodger Wed May 30, 2012 12:20 am

Wait till you see us after getting thumped three times laurie - we'll have 10'000 posts and 100'000 views all of it about Declan Kidney Smile

by aucklandlaurie Wed May 30, 2012 12:22 am

If the Irish rugby team has half the enthusiasm as their supporters on 606 then I think it'll be us getting thumped 3 nil.

by **George Carlin** Wed May 30, 2012 6:55 am

You Irish lads like to talk, don't you? Superb. Leprechaun

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 8:45 am

Talking champions of the world
Fighting champions of the world
Drinking champions of the world

Some things we just excel at Laugh

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 9:19 am

Ross is very doubtful for the First test so its
Healy and Fitzpatrick with god knows who on the bench

We're screwed
There is no way Fitzpatrick will last 80 mins agains the All Blacks so it has to be a TH.

Someone should, but wont, talk to Andress and get him along for the last 30 mins.
He is not that great but he is a darn site better than the alternatives.

Seriously who will be on the bench.
We have to take another LH - McAllister ? and a TH i.e 5 props

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 9:50 am

Yikes! Is that a definite? I saw him walking away from the stadium after the Rabo final.

If he is out Fitzpatrick to start (gulp) and gee Loughney (GULP) on the bench.

This is..........worrying........

by Rava Wed May 30, 2012 9:59 am

Pete the whole feicin' tour is worrying. Its a joke. Most of these guys have been playing rugby since the back end of July last year and at the highest level. Talk about player welfare - FFS give the lads a break steam

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:03 am

We have to look at this as an opportunity though.

We get to see a backup TH (one that isn't a LH) and Ross could well be fit for the latter tests.

If healy and best travel there is 2/3's of our first choice front row. Bod, Heaslip, sexton, Kearney, Trimble, earls, D'arcy have all been there and done it so there is plenty of experience around.

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 10:07 am

Reports on twitter saying Paul Marshall and Chris Henry are in the squad, Gilroy on standby.

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:10 am

Fair play to Gilroy for forcing their hand. All he can do is take his chances like he did last night

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 10:12 am

He was already on standby. All the players who played last night but aren't in the touring squad are.

Mike Ross is a doubt for the first test...

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:13 am

What twitter are you referring to notch?

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 10:14 am

Is there another?

by Sin é Wed May 30, 2012 10:14 am

Sounds like the scrum was in serious trouble .... again!

The Irish Times - Wednesday, May 30, 2012
Kidney remains upbeat despite disjointed performance

JOHN O'SULLIVAN at Kingsholm, Gloucester

RUGBY: Ireland 28 Barbarians 29 : THE DEFEAT won’t be the only thing that’ll smart this morning from an Irish perspective. A number of players picked up bumps and bruises on a night when the Barbarians opted to kick a late penalty, through Felipe Contepomi, to secure victory.

Ireland coach Declan Kidney was reasonably upbeat in the aftermath, pointing out the recent injury problems that have bedevilled the squad were not exacerbated last night. Chris Henry, Brett Wilkinson and Peter O’Mahony were taken off with bangs but Kidney doesn’t expect unpleasant news from the medical assessment this morning.

He will fill three of the four vacancies in the squad to tour New Zealand today with a decision on Paul O’Connell’s fitness deferred until Friday. Henry and Wilkinson are slated to go even though Ronan Loughney’s cameo will have have given the coach something to ponder. Scrumhalf Paul Marshall’s three-minute cameo was all too brief.

This was a scratch Ireland side with limited preparatory time but there were fundamental performance issues. The unit skills and collective cohesion were periodically lacking and at best fractured but the scrum travails were worrying in the light of the hamstring injury Mike Ross is currently nursing.

Declan Fitzpatrick appeared in less discomfort in this area but in mitigation Irish loosehead Brett Wilkinson was up against the formidable John Afoa; Wilkinson was in trouble. In the first scrum, Ireland were shunted backwards, in the second penalised, the third conceded a free kick.

Fitzpatrick was replaced by Connacht’s Ronan Loughney on 56 minutes but what was arguably more instructive was the Ulster player’s return on 67 minutes. Loughney moved to loosehead and Ireland forced a penalty. Wilkinson did contribute admirably around the pitch, demonstrating his fitness but scrum time would be a concern.

Kidney explained: “I am not inclined to preordain substitutions before a game. In this frontrow one I did think I would like to see how Ronan would go. Brett, with a calf injury, there was always a danger of him cramping up: with 65 minutes gone that happened. It was better to get him off before he pulled it and ruled him out of the tour . . . It allowed Ronan (Loughney) to go over and play both sides for us. Given we are still on a 22-man squad for the internationals it’s a help to have two guys Declan Fitzpatrick and Ronan Loughney who can front up on both sides.”

It wasn’t the only area in which Ireland’s playing framework creaked as Ireland haemorrhaged penalties at the breakdown. The main cause was the lack of speed to the tackled player and a deficiency in numbers. Henry limped off forcing Andrew Trimble to come on and play in the backrow, while number eight O’Mahony was also replaced, having soldiered for most of the game with a shoulder/neck problem.

Kidney admitted: “I just felt it was prudent not to overplay Chris (Henry) and then Peter (O’Mahony) had picked up a bang on the neck. So we had subbed Chris we got the word Peter started to tighten up and might have made the substitutions a different way. James (Coughlan) was someone I wanted to see as to how he would go. But I expect both (O’Mahony and Henry) to be okay over the next 48 or 72 hours.

Ulster scrumhalf Paul Marshall never really got a chance to stake a claim to replace the injured Isaac Boss for the tour – it’s a situation that will be resolved this morning – as he came on with just three minutes remaining.

On a night when Irish players struggled to rise above the mediocre, Craig Gilroy’s produced a stunning performance not just in scoring a brace of tries but in his role as creator. Hooker Mike Sherry worked hard, Ronan O’Gara kicked beautifully from the tee and in general, there was plenty of perspiration from the Irish team but the continuity and understanding that comes with playing together just wasn’t there.

Scoring sequence – 9 mins: Balshaw try, Contepomi conversion, 7-0; 13: Gilroy try, O’Gara conversion, 7-7; 17: van Zyl try, 12-7; 23: Earls try, O’Gara conversion, 12-14; 28: Sackey try, Contepomi conversion, 19-14. Half-time: 19-14. 44: Zebo try, O’Gara conversion, 19-21; 56: Tindall try, Contepomi conversion, 26-21; 62: Gilroy try, O’Gara conversion, 26-28; 77: Contepomi penalty, 29-28.

BARBARIANS : C Heymans; P Sackey, M Tindall, D Traille, I Balshaw; F Contepomi, R Lawson; D Jones, B August, J Afoa; M O’Driscoll, C van Zyl; M Gorgodze, F Louw, R Lakafia. Replacements: P Taele for van Zyl (24 mins), A de Malmanche for August (41 mins), I Nacewa for Balshaw, N Tialata for Jones (both 55 mins), A Qera for Gorgodze (65 mins), S Donald for Heymans (66 mins),R Rees for Lawson (70 mins).

IRELAND : K Earls (Munster); C Gilroy (Ulster), D Cave (Ulster), P Wallace (Ulster), S Zebo (Munster); R O’Gara (Munster), C Murray (Munster); B Wilkinson (Wilkinson), M Sherry (Munster), D Fitzpatrick (Ulster); D Tuohy (Ulster), D Ryan (Munster); J Muldoon (Connacht), C Henry (Ulster), P O’Mahony (Munster). Replacements: R Loughney (Connacht) for Fitzpatrick (57 mins), D O’Callaghan (Munster) for Tuohy, J Coughlan (Munster) for Henry (both 60 mins), A Trimble (Ulster) for O’Mahony (70), P Marshall (Ulster) for Murray (77 mins), N Spence (Ulster) for Gilroy (78 mins).

Referee: Jerome Garces (France).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0530/1224316915928.html

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:23 am

Notch wrote:Is there another?

Whose twitter then I should say.

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 10:29 am

BBC Sport NI. Richard Mulligan.

by Rava Wed May 30, 2012 10:31 am

Now on the BBC Website.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18241131

Ireland set to call up Ulster duo for New Zealand tour

Ulster duo Paul Marshall and Chris Henry are set to be added to the Ireland squad for the tour to New Zealand, BBC Sport understands.

by **rodders** Wed May 30, 2012 10:34 am

How the flip can Marshall be called up for NZ when Kidney won't give him a run in a Baa-baas game? Rolling Eyes

What a feicin farce! Cancel christmas! Justice (1)4 Gilroy!! steam

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:36 am

Very good rodders

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 10:37 am

Does anyone reckon they know who the replacement TH prop is going to be for the first test so?

Can't imagine Fitzpatrick lasting the 80mins

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 10:39 am

Also: This article has been trimmed down! When/why did that happen?

by Sin é Wed May 30, 2012 10:44 am

rodders wrote:How the flip can Marshall be called up for NZ when Kidney won't give him a run in a Baa-baas game?

What a feicin farce! Cancel christmas! Justice (1)4 Gilroy!!

The fact that Andrew Trimble was the No. 8 maybe? Wink

(POM was taken off with suspected neck injury at 70 mins. The fact that the scrum was going backwards very fast even with POM at No8, might also have been a reason why Marshall might not have been the experience that Marshall needed)!

by Standulstermen Wed May 30, 2012 10:47 am

Baa baas game sin. If you aren't going to make subs there then Sad

by Sin é Wed May 30, 2012 10:53 am

Standulstermen wrote:Baa baas game sin. If you aren't going to make subs there then

A game they wanted to win. And they nearly did - despite the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

by **rodders** Wed May 30, 2012 10:53 am

Sin if Kidney doesn't trust Marshall to play behind a retreating pack in a meaningless game then why the flip is he going on tour to the worlds best side?

I'll tell you why.... he's going to hold tackle bags.

Why do we need 3 scrum halves anyway? Probably because there are injury worries about one of the other 2 or both.

Gilroy is the form back in the country and we have a shortage of back 3 players with only 1 specialist 15 and Earls the full back cover despite saying publically he isn't comfortable anywhere other than 13? Trimble is out of sorts and the Ospreys showed what happens when Zebo has to defend on the back foot.

Load of old bollix, Kidney and co couldn't organise a p*$$ up in the Bushmills distillery furious

by Sin é Wed May 30, 2012 10:58 am

rodders - I'm surprised marshall is going - he has never partnered Sexton or ROG and it wouldn't be fair to throw him in against the ABs in a new team and an outhalf he hasn't played with before. I suspect that neither O'Leary or Stringer are available.

I'd say there is every chance that Zebo will be holding as many tackle bags as Marshall.

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 11:03 am

For flip sake if Marshall is called upon to play in NZ the one thing you can guarantee is he will be playing behind a retreating scrum

Loughney should be no where the party. The fact Fitzpatrick had to come back on says it all.
I can see Loughney getting a serious injury as he will be totally out of his depth - I do hope I am wrong.

We should take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Andress, McAllister
We will take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson and it will be a total train wreck.

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 11:06 am

rodders wrote: Gilroy is the form back in the country and we have a shortage of back 3 players with only 1 specialist 15 and Earls the full back cover despite saying publically he isn't comfortable anywhere other than 13? Trimble is out of sorts and the Ospreys showed what happens when Zebo has to defend on the back foot.

Load of old bollix, Kidney and co couldn't organise a p*$$ up in the Bushmills distillery

Sums up the selection farce nicely clap

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 11:09 am

Sin é wrote:rodders - I'm surprised marshall is going - he has never partnered Sexton or ROG and it wouldn't be fair to throw him in against the ABs in a new team and an outhalf he hasn't played with before.

A fact Kidney could have addressed by giving Marshall a half against the Baa Baas.
He failed to do so - another error of judgement

by Mickado Wed May 30, 2012 11:15 am

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Baa baas game sin. If you aren't going to make subs there then

A game they wanted to win. And they nearly did - despite the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

But they didn't win, because of the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

by **rodders** Wed May 30, 2012 11:16 am

Sin é wrote:rodders - I'm surprised marshall is going

You and me both Sin. I'm not against throwing guys in the deep end but I think Marshall will be going out to sit on his backside whereas someone like Gilroy, Madigan or Dave Kearney could have played a significant part in the tour and gained valuable experience as well as added to the side.

Kidney has shown next to no interest in Marshall before so I think this is a waste of Marshalls time and a waste of a touring spot.

Maybe I'm wrong but if Kidney doesn't trust Marshal to play a part against the Baa-baas then what chance he'll feature against NZ?

Kidney doesn't seem to have even the faintest idea of what he wants from a scrum-half or half back generally and thats a big factor in why we have no real gameplan with the ball.

by Sin é Wed May 30, 2012 11:19 am

geoff998rugby wrote:For flip sake if Marshall is called upon to play in NZ the one thing you can guarantee is he will be playing behind a retreating scrum

Loughney should be no where the party. The fact Fitzpatrick had to come back on says it all.
I can see Loughney getting a serious injury as he will be totally out of his depth - I do hope I am wrong.

We should take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Andress, McAllister
We will take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson and it will be a total train wreck.

40 mins with ROG and a backrow who were in trouble at the breakdown wasn't going to do much for any of the team because Marshall was never going to get his hands on the ball. At least Murray could give the backrow a dig out.

From that report it was Wilkinson who was in big trouble. Loughney did well at loosehead.

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 11:30 am

Loughney did badly at TH and that is where he will be playing when Fitzpatrick runs out of steam.

Being under pressure would have done Marshall good as that is what he will be under in NZ

by Rava Wed May 30, 2012 11:34 am

This felt like a 'real' international and the pragmatic decision by Barbarians captain Mick O'Driscoll, the retiring Munster lock, to take the decisive three points on offer just a couple of minutes before time was not a surprising one.

Traitor Whistle

by clivemcl Wed May 30, 2012 11:41 am

Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Baa baas game sin. If you aren't going to make subs there then

A game they wanted to win. And they nearly did - despite the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

But they didn't win, because of the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

I'm not a massive fan of continuing with ROG, but what basis do you have that ROG was part of the reason we lost? Were you there? Or are there articles that point to him being poor? Or are you just guessing?

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 11:49 am

Marshall should have had game time to prepare for NZ. It was a nothing game (in a way) and it would have stood him in good sted for games that have something riding on them. A live wire like Marshall against a BaaBaa's defence that is obviously not going to be well organised may have done some good rather than as Sin puts it, Murray giving the backrow a dig out by sticking his body in rucks when he needs to just get the ball out (not necessarily all his fault)

by Mickado Wed May 30, 2012 11:57 am

clivemcl wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Baa baas game sin. If you aren't going to make subs there then

A game they wanted to win. And they nearly did - despite the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

But they didn't win, because of the retreating scrum and ROG as OH.

I'm not a massive fan of continuing with ROG, but what basis do you have that ROG was part of the reason we lost? Were you there? Or are there articles that point to him being poor? Or are you just guessing?

SinE said we won in spite of a retreating scrum and ROG at OH, since none of us actually saw the game I’m just positing that it is as likely that we lost because of those elements than it is that we nearly won in spite of them.

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 12:01 pm

rodders wrote:Maybe I'm wrong but if Kidney doesn't trust Marshal to play a part against the Baa-baas then what chance he'll feature against NZ?

Kidney doesn't seem to have even the faintest idea of what he wants from a scrum-half or half back generally and thats a big factor in why we have no real gameplan with the ball.

Yeah I agree with all of that. Kidney will say this is an opportunity for Marshall, but I don't see how he's going to work on his tan in the New Zealand winter Headscratch

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 pm

Seems like the main reason we lost was due to a hefty penalty count against us. Penalties were 12-5 in favour of the Barbarians. Hard to draw conclusions from our attacking game- like I said, up against a soft defence. Seems the outside backs did well though.

Key moment seems to be Cave making the break in their 22 but missing Wallace with his pass. Wallace would have been under the posts and Ireland nine points up.

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 12:36 pm

Richard Mulligan on twitter says that Brett Wilkinson, Ronan Loughney and Mike McCarthy are joining Henry and Marshall in the tour squad.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel here when it comes to front rows!

by **Notch** Wed May 30, 2012 12:43 pm

Ireland Squad (New Zealand Tour 2012 with test matches on June 9th, 16th and 23rd):

Forwards (17):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Chris Henry (Ballymena/Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht)*
Kevin McLaughlin (St.Mary's College/Leinster)
Mike McCarthy (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
Brett Wilkinson (Galwegians/Connacht)*

Backs (13):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Paul Marshall (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)*
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*

*Denotes Uncapped Player

N.B. Paul O'Connell is not included in the listed squad until a decision is made regarding his fitness on Friday.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 12:44 pm

I would really rather Toner than McCarthy, I know McCarthy adds bulk and is fairly mobile but I'd still prefer Toner in there as he has had such a good season and for a lock is still very young.

by Thomond Wed May 30, 2012 12:47 pm

Marshall will be holding the bags, I'd say Zebo will be too. Congrats to the two of them though, would like to have seen Toner in too but sure what can you do. Gilroy has hopefully given Kidney some food for thought. Seeing as none of us have seen the game I wouldn't be drawing too many conclusions from it.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed May 30, 2012 12:52 pm

What are the benefits of bring McCarthy over Toner though?

by **rodders** Wed May 30, 2012 12:55 pm

Shocking decision to leave Toner and take McCarthy on top of Touhy, McLaughlin and DOC.

McCarthy brings nothing that the other 3 don't and with POC out we only have Ryan as a top class lineout specialist lock.

The tactical ineptitude of the selection panel is mind blowing, it really is.

by Thomond Wed May 30, 2012 12:55 pm

There are none, I think Toner has come on a lot while McCarthy is probably all he can be. It makes a hell of a lot more sense to bring Toner. Trappatoni and Kidney are far too conservative. Seems to be a common trait between the two. i.e Ciarán Clark should be brought ahead of that tool McShane (he wouldn't start for Cork City!) and McCarthy ahead of Toner.

by red_stag Wed May 30, 2012 1:06 pm

Loosehead Prop: Cian Healy, Brett Wilkinson

Hooker: Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Mike Sherry

Tighthead Prop: Declan Fitzpatrick, Mike Ross, Ronan Loughney

Second Row: Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Mike McCartney

Backrows: Kevin McLaughlin, Chris Henry, Jamie Heaslip, Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony

Scrumhalves: Paul Marshall, Eoin Reddan, Conor Murray

Flyhalves: Ronan O'Gara, Jonathan Sexton

Inside Centre: Gordon Darcy, Fergus McFadden

Outside Centre: Brian O'Driscoll, Darren Cave

Winger: Simon Zebo, Andrew Trimble, Keith Earls

Fullback: Rob Kearney

I have to say there are some big losses in that squad. Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell, Tommy Bowe and Luke Fitzgerald

by red_stag Wed May 30, 2012 1:08 pm

My gut feeling regarding McCartney and Toner is that he is covering #6 in the same manner as Kevin McLaughlin or Donnacha Ryan.

If O'Connell is fit I think this would be first and second choice backrows:

6 - Kevin McLaughlin
7 - Sean O'Brien
8 - Jamie Heaslip

6 - Mike McCartney
7 - Chris Henry
8 - Peter O'Mahony

I think they are very similar in their style of play and it show some semblance of a game plan.

I've no qualms about Toner not being included.

by **rodders** Wed May 30, 2012 1:10 pm

Just heard on the radio that McCarthy is just cover for O'Connell if he doesn't make it.

Don't see the similaraties between O'Connell and McCarthy myself but there you go.

by geoff998rugby Wed May 30, 2012 1:38 pm

I commend my earlier post to the board

geoff998rugby wrote:Loughney should be no where the party. The fact Fitzpatrick had to come back on says it all.
I can see Loughney getting a serious injury as he will be totally out of his depth - I do hope I am wrong.

We should take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Andress, McAllister
We will take - Ross, Healy, Fitzpatrick, Loughney, Wilkinson and it will be a total train wreck.

I see no reason to change the assessment either.
Neither of the Connacht boys are anywhere near good enough as props for this level.

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