Irish Summer Tour Squad

First topic message reminder :

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, I wouldn't get impatient with people for having to post things 3 times. People must have posted the same thing to you at least 50 times and you are none the wiser..

Sin mate, read what Boyne has said again. It makes perfect sense to me but once again you don't seem able to repond to a specific point with a specific answer.

No one asked you who you would select, so I don't know why you need to repost it.

Boyne is pointing out that no one is arguing for Tuohys inclusion at Ryans expense so why are you comparing them?

What about this new Leinster fella Michael Bent - Irish qualified afaik and won't be daunted playing in NZ.

FitzStephen wrote:What about this new Leinster fella Michael Bent - Irish qualified afaik and won't be daunted playing in NZ.

Seriously?

I know nothing about the man, but he's a tighthead and Schmidt rates him.

Can't see a win coming from the tour. If we're lucky, we'll have some close games and not too many whoopings! It's depressing that this is the best we can hope for.

www.kidneyclock.net, oh how I wish you would move quicker.

Just realised while willing the KidneyClock to move faster, it's a year till his contract expires! That's cheered me up a little!

A whole year?

So he gets to F up another 6 nations.
That's depressing

Unfortunately so but hopefully this time next year we will be looking forward with optimism to a new coach!

Just wondering if Ireland played the shoite rugby they do now, but won a Grand Slam would people back Deccie? I don't really know how I would answer that one to be honest!

That's a tough one,we won the GS playing crap rugby but it made sense as the laws at the time didn't allow for much else.After the last 2 years it's a problem I'd love to face.

Thomond I'll take a GS any old way mate! ... unless your Wales GS's don't grow on trees....

Rodders , so you would support Deccie? I could see it happening, I don't think we're as far behind Wales/France as people think.

FitzStephen wrote:I know nothing about the man, but he's a tighthead and Schmidt rates him.

I suspect a lot of our coaches are in a similar position.

Thomond if we win a GS I'd be the first to buy Deccie a pina colada....

I have nothing against Deccie.... I just have something against playing rubbish and losing

Well, it's a bit of a no-brainer. I don't think we can win another Slam without doing the things people are urging the management to do. The reason people are longing for change is the coaching staff shows little or no inclination to do them!

FitzStephen wrote:What about this new Leinster fella Michael Bent - Irish qualified afaik and won't be daunted playing in NZ.

The talk coming from New Zealand is that he makes Borlase look world class.

Great. Optimism gone now.

Geoff
I wouldn't dispute that the Connacht props aren't good enough but are they the best Ireland have available? Neither MacAllister nor Andress have had that much high level rugby, whereas Wilkinson and Loughney have at least been starters. If MacAllister isn't ready I'd rather he wasn't dropped in too soon.

I've never been convinced enough by Andress (as you know) to decide whether he offers anything more than Loughney who at least nominally covers both sides.

Back row comparison at:

http://www.allblacks.com/news/19517/All-Blacks-versus-Ireland-comparison---the-back-row

I agree we are poor I just have a belief that Loughney at TH when, if wont be if, Fitzpatrick goes off the scrums will make the scrums against England looked controlled.

I would agree Wilkinson v McAllister is a close call.
The difference is McAllister will get better.
It show, probably correctly, Hagan is nowhere near ready - maybe even behind Macklin in development.
Also shows Archer is not rated - having seen him in aged rugby that is an assessment I agree with

Again Andress is not great but better than any alternative behind Ross and Fitzpatrick imv.
Andres is no more than a journeyman TH but that is good enough to be 3rd best for Ireland

Seems O'Brien is pretty highly rated down there. I am surprised, since many of the irish fans on here aren't happy with him at 7..

Is Hagan injured?

i dont believe so.
Being to loook to me that he has been hyped up a bit beyond his progress

geoff998rugby wrote:i dont believe so.
Being to loook to me that he has been hyped up a bit beyond his progress

I think there was more hype about his performances for Connacht than for us. He did have one really good game against Montellier but he’s fallen off the radar a bit since. With Bent coming in and White leaving we’re going to have 3 Irish qualified THs (in fact only 1 non IQ front row!) so someone will be getting plenty of gametime, which can only be a good thing…

Mickado wrote: in fact only 1 non IQ front row

Ditto Ulster

Those Munster boys letting the side down again with 2

Your point is a fair one - as I say it just seems to me Hagan is no further on than Macklin.
So 2 prospects but neither will help us out in the coming season

It really does look like Ross and Fitzpatrick and then we fall of a cliff at TH - very worrying

I like Macklin I gotta say. There are some pretty good young ulster forwards, that guy Birch was very impressive.

Who do Munster have behind Botha and DuPreez now that Hurley is gone? Archer and...?

... Archer and Kilcoyne (was starting LH for most of the B+I cup). Looks to be pretty handy.

Pete - Archer, Ryan, Condon and Kilcoyne. None of them are really amazing.

I have to say I am cheesed off that Leinsters lack of contribution to the front row. They IMO are the main reasons we are in this situation.

Since 2006 I can think of Ollie le Roux, CJ van der Linde, Will Green, Stan Wright, Nathan White and Heinke van der Merwe. Thats 6 foreign props.

Ulster produced Bryan Young and Simon Best and although they didn't work out due to being found out and developing medical complaints respectively they at least put players out there.

Munster had Marcus Horan, John Hayes and Tony Buckley. They got so many caps between them and we were doing well developing Darragh Hurley though injury hamstruck that.

Leinster have let the side down badly - genuinely Cian Healy is all that they have contributed.

That's an odd one Stag.

I'd agree with you to an extent Stag but that really has come full circle since Joe has come in especially as of next season.

Ross is the guy who came in and made the Irish scrum something solid and useful. All the others merely held on, I think Ross has been very good in that sense. Granted Leinster haven't really contributed much to the tight 5 before the pair of them but they are now contributing more than the other provinces in a way as we have so many IE props.

red_stag wrote:Pete - Archer, Ryan, Condon and Kilcoyne. None of them are really amazing.

I have to say I am cheesed off that Leinsters lack of contribution to the front row. They IMO are the main reasons we are in this situation.

Since 2006 I can think of Ollie le Roux, CJ van der Linde, Will Green, Stan Wright, Nathan White and Heinke van der Merwe. Thats 6 foreign props.

Ulster produced Bryan Young and Simon Best and although they didn't work out due to being found out and developing medical complaints respectively they at least put players out there.

Munster had Marcus Horan, John Hayes and Tony Buckley. They got so many caps between them and we were doing well developing Darragh Hurley though injury hamstruck that.

Leinster have let the side down badly - genuinely Cian Healy is all that they have contributed.

Next year we'll have 1 NIQ front row player. And we alreay supply both props and the back up hooker.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That's an odd one Stag.

I'd agree with you to an extent Stag but that really has come full circle since Joe has come in especially as of next season.

Ross is the guy who came in and made the Irish scrum something solid and useful. All the others merely held on, I think Ross has been very good in that sense. Granted Leinster haven't really contributed much to the tight 5 before the pair of them but they are now contributing more than the other provinces in a way as we have so many IE props.

Other than Healy, all Leinster has done it got out their cheque book. Leinster haven't produced a decent hooker since Shane Byrne.

Haha Sin, any reason to have a dig at Leinster you take it. Then again, Munster didn't exactly help as they didn't have any alternatives to Hayes and Horan. Now look where they are. 2 NIQ props, which is hardly helping the irish cause in any way..

We're not short of hookers though. So that's irrelevant. Ulster haven't produced a decent scrum half, Munster haven't produced a decent fullback etc. doesn't matter. We're talking props.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That's an odd one Stag.

I'd agree with you to an extent Stag but that really has come full circle since Joe has come in especially as of next season.

Ross is the guy who came in and made the Irish scrum something solid and useful. All the others merely held on, I think Ross has been very good in that sense. Granted Leinster haven't really contributed much to the tight 5 before the pair of them but they are now contributing more than the other provinces in a way as we have so many IE props.

Other than Healy, all Leinster has done it got out their cheque book. Leinster haven't produced a decent hooker since Shane Byrne.

What about Leinsters vey own Keith Wood,dena dena dena Jack MAN

Changing the subject slightly but does anyone else think we should be bringing another OH now that Jackson isn't going to the U 20 WC.It seems a bit odd that Marshall is going and Madigan or Jackson aren't when realistically they both have a shot at being long term internationals and Marshall won't ever be more than a squad player.

Also I am starting to feel the inevitable and totally illogical optimism that goes with an upcoming Irish international.I'm starting to think we have a real shot in the first test.The NZ squad will be playing Super rugby this weekend whereas our Munster/Ulster /Connacht contingent have had a few weeks without a real competitive game (ignoring the BaBa's game,I don't think it would have been too draining) and even the Leinster lads will have had a decent chunk of rest time.We'll also have trained together longer than they have,I know it's crazy but I feel a bubble of hope.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Changing the subject slightly but does anyone else think we should be bringing another OH now that Jackson isn't going to the U 20 WC.It seems a bit odd that Marshall is going and Madigan or Jackson aren't when realistically they both have a shot at being long term internationals and Marshall won't ever be more than a squad player.

I think we should be taking Gilroy, Madigan or Kearney JR, not Marshall. We don't need another scrum half for a 3 game tour and unless there is an injury he won't even be on the bench.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That's an odd one Stag.

I'd agree with you to an extent Stag but that really has come full circle since Joe has come in especially as of next season.

Ross is the guy who came in and made the Irish scrum something solid and useful. All the others merely held on, I think Ross has been very good in that sense. Granted Leinster haven't really contributed much to the tight 5 before the pair of them but they are now contributing more than the other provinces in a way as we have so many IE props.

Other than Healy, all Leinster has done it got out their cheque book. Leinster haven't produced a decent hooker since Shane Byrne.

What about Leinsters vey own Keith Wood,dena dena dena Jack MAN

I used the word 'decent' hooker (anyway, they did little to develop him - just used the chequebook yet again).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Haha Sin, any reason to have a dig at Leinster you take it. Then again, Munster didn't exactly help as they didn't have any alternatives to Hayes and Horan. Now look where they are. 2 NIQ props, which is hardly helping the irish cause in any way..

I wasn't the only one who was correcting the 'facts' how Leinster are providing the Ireland front row.

Munster did have alternatives to Hayes & Horan. Mushy would be still at Munster (and available to Ireland) along with Botha if the IRFU hadn't messed up his central contract. And like Ulster and Simon Best, Munster would have been fine if Horan's career wasn't curtailed through illness (and Hurley's career wasn't shortened by injury).

Who knows, with Hayes's imminent retirement and no Mushy at Munster, Ross would probably be back there instead of at Leinster.

Deleted

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Also I am starting to feel the inevitable and totally illogical optimism that goes with an upcoming Irish international.I'm starting to think we have a real shot in the first test.The NZ squad will be playing Super rugby this weekend whereas our Munster/Ulster /Connacht contingent have had a few weeks without a real competitive game (ignoring the BaBa's game,I don't think it would have been too draining) and even the Leinster lads will have had a decent chunk of rest time.We'll also have trained together longer than they have,I know it's crazy but I feel a bubble of hope.

Just keep taking the tablets Sore. That blind optimism will surely dissipate over time and reality will somehow prevail.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would you really want Buckley there as a replacement,the man was never able to get a consistent run of form and anytime he looked like finally doing it he was struck down by illness or injury.

Buckley would have been brilliant off the bench for both Munster and Ireland (when the 23 man squads come in).

I'm with asore, I believe we will win the 1st test and then maybe go on to win the series 2-1...... .......

Pass the pills please there sore........

I think we're going to lose 3-0 and it will be the end, or at least the beginning of the end, for Kidney.

Notch wrote:I think we're going to lose 3-0 and it will be the end, or at least the beginning of the end, for Kidney.

So the clock is ticking ...

I believe Kidney will get a contract extension regardless of the result.....

In fact I'll eat my strawmans hat if he doesn't take us through to the next RWC.

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would you really want Buckley there as a replacement,the man was never able to get a consistent run of form and anytime he looked like finally doing it he was struck down by illness or injury.

Buckley would have been brilliant off the bench for both Munster and Ireland (when the 23 man squads come in).

Yeah I deleted the post as I realised it wasn't really a relevant point to the discussion,Munster did still develop him as an option,how good or bad he was after that isn't really that important.

So now that the squad has been finalised here is my team for the First Test.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Fitzpatrick (Give Ross some additional time to recover)
4. Tuohy
5. Ryan
6. SOB
7. POM
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan (Most likely will be Murray but would like to see the Leinster pair start together)
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. BOD
13. Cave
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Loughney
18. McCarthy
19. Henry
20. Murray
21. ROG
22. McFadden/Zebo

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would you really want Buckley there as a replacement,the man was never able to get a consistent run of form and anytime he looked like finally doing it he was struck down by illness or injury.

Buckley would have been brilliant off the bench for both Munster and Ireland (when the 23 man squads come in).

No he wouldn't. He's dire.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would you really want Buckley there as a replacement,the man was never able to get a consistent run of form and anytime he looked like finally doing it he was struck down by illness or injury.

Buckley would have been brilliant off the bench for both Munster and Ireland (when the 23 man squads come in).

No he wouldn't. He's dire.

Still streets ahead of anything Leinster have produced (which is sweet FA).

Football Association?

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Would you really want Buckley there as a replacement,the man was never able to get a consistent run of form and anytime he looked like finally doing it he was struck down by illness or injury.

Buckley would have been brilliant off the bench for both Munster and Ireland (when the 23 man squads come in).

No he wouldn't. He's dire.

Still streets ahead of anything Leinster have produced (which is sweet FA).

Cian Healy?