JWC: Irish and Baby Bok squads announced.

First topic message reminder :

The Irish and Baby Bok teams have been announced.

Irish team:

15. Peter Nelson (Dungannon/Ulster)
14. Barry Daly (UCD/Leinster)
13. Foster Horan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Chris Farrell (Dungannon/Ulster)
11. Sam Coghlan Murray (UCD/Leinster)
10. JJ Hanrahan (UL Bohemians/Munster) *
9. Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) *
1. Des Merrey (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Niall Scannell (Dolphin/Munster) (capt)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) *
4. Tadhg Beirne (Lansdowne/Leinster)
5. Iain Henderson (Queen's University/Ulster) *
6. Jordan Coghlan (UCD/Leinster)
7. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
8. Conor Gilsenan (UCD/Mullingar/Leinster)

Replacements:

16. James Rael (Garryowen/Munster)
17. Peter Reilly (Lansdowne/Leinster)
18. Jake Cawley (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
19. Alan O'Connor (UCD/Leinster)
20. Aaron Conneely (Corinthians/Connacht) *
21. Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)
22. Jack Carty (Buccaneers/Connacht)
23. Mikey Sherlock (Clontarf/Leinster)

Baby Boks:

15. Dillyn Leyds (DHL Western Province)
14. Paul Jordaan (KZN)
13. Pat Howard (DHL Western Province)
12. Jan Serfontein (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
11. Raymond Rhule (Toyota Free State)
10. Tony Jantjies (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
9. Abrie Griesel (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
8. Fabian Booysen (MTN Golden Lions)
7. Wiaan Liebenberg (Vodacom Blue Bulls, captain)
6. Shaun Adendorff (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
5. Pieter Steph du Toit (KZN)
4. Paul Willemse (MTN Golden Lions)
3. Allan Dell (KZN)
2. Mark Pretorius (MTN Golden Lions)
1. Steven Kitshoff (DHL Western Province)

Reserves:
16. Jason Thomas (Vodacom Blue Bulls)
17. Oliver Kebble (DHL Western Province)
18. Ruan Botha (MTN Golden Lions)
19. Braam Steyn (KZN)
20. Vian van der Watt (MTN Golden Lions)
21. Handrè Pollard (DHL Western Province)
22. Tshotsho Mbovane (DHL Western Province)
23. Maks van Dyk (KZN)



The game is on Monday at 5.45 Irish time, I think its live on TG4 and possibly Sky Sports.

Farrell is the big fella and Horan is the little fella. People say Farrell didn't use his size but I think Horan was the problem. Horan can't pass the ball.

Thomond wrote:http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html?id=1673151590001&title=U-20%20World%20Cup

For anyone who didn't catch the game or wants to watch it again!

Rory, I was kind of making a general point about the whole backrow when I was talking about Gilsenan. The only thing I'm disapoointed with is that there were only 3 Musnter fellas involved last night. I know Munster rarely get shed loads of guys involved at this age but still not great.

The Munster players are not as physically developed yet as some of those players. We should see a few more on next years squad. The Irish pack were heavier than the Boks pack.

Some did seem to get the 12 and 13 confused.

As I said the usual lineup is Hanrahan 12 Farrell 13.

Farrell is raw but I think is the type of big physical centre the game is demanding these days.

You will see Nelson on the fringes of the Ulster team next year

profitius wrote:Farrell is the big fella and Horan is the little fella. People say Farrell didn't use his size but I think Horan was the problem. Horan can't pass the ball.

Thomond wrote:http://www.tg4.ie/en/tg4-player/tg4-player.html?id=1673151590001&title=U-20%20World%20Cup

For anyone who didn't catch the game or wants to watch it again!

Rory, I was kind of making a general point about the whole backrow when I was talking about Gilsenan. The only thing I'm disapoointed with is that there were only 3 Musnter fellas involved last night. I know Munster rarely get shed loads of guys involved at this age but still not great.

The Munster players are not as physically developed yet as some of those players. We should see a few more on next years squad. The Irish pack were heavier than the Boks pack.

Really? I wouldn't have said the Irish were a hugely physically, imposing team but they were skillful.

Thomond wrote:

profitius wrote:

The Munster players are not as physically developed yet as some of those players. We should see a few more on next years squad. The Irish pack were heavier than the Boks pack.

Really? I wouldn't have said the Irish were a hugely physically, imposing team but they were skillful.

They were only a few Kg's heavier but in years gone by you would bet on th Boks having a much bigger pack. Nowadays more effort is being put in to get the young Irish players in better condition.

Interesting because the last time these two met the baby Boks shoved our pack all over the place, despite our backs looking very good.

Our physicality generally hasn't been good at this level so I am pleased to hear that we were bigger.

rodders it wasn't the size of your forwards that made the difference mate, it was their collective commitment at the breakdown, the maul, the scrum and the lineout.

Agree totally with that, Biltong. A small pack can beat a bigger one but need to put in a greater workload.

I accept that Biltong (will watch it later)/Thomond, I'm just pointing out that the last time these sides met our pack struggled to create a platform for the backs.

We were beasted up front, lacked ball carriers and were poor in contact.

I'm sure that was just last year? Clearly something has changed in the interim.

Of course Rodders, some of that is due to Ireland working for each other. They looked very much like a team.

Look foward to watching it Thomond. Was a bit concerned that under ruddock our kids were focusing too much on attacking skills and throwing the ball around and not enough on the basics, rucking, contact skills, defence etc....the Welsh way if you like.....

Clearly this result shows that is not the case so I'm delighted .

biltongbek wrote:rodders it wasn't the size of your forwards that made the difference mate, it was their collective commitment at the breakdown, the maul, the scrum and the lineout.

Spot on

geoff998rugby wrote:Some did seem to get the 12 and 13 confused.

As I said the usual lineup is Hanrahan 12 Farrell 13.

Farrell is raw but I think is the type of big physical centre the game is demanding these days.

You will see Nelson on the fringes of the Ulster team next year

I haven't been that impressed with Farrell yet, and I think Spence already fits the big physical centre criteria.

rodders wrote:Interesting because the last time these two met the baby Boks shoved our pack all over the place, despite our backs looking very good.

Our physicality generally hasn't been good at this level so I am pleased to hear that we were bigger.

I'm sure having a big pack won't do Wales much good against NZ on friday. Although saying that, the Baby Blacks are bigger than they have been for the past 3 years.

rodders wrote:Look foward to watching it Thomond. Was a bit concerned that under ruddock our kids were focusing too much on attacking skills and throwing the ball around and not enough on the basics, rucking, contact skills, defence etc....the Welsh way if you like.....

Really? I'd say the Irish play is quite the opposite of Ruddocks way, and that is what's best suited to them as they seem to execute it well. Every Irish U20 team I have seen play seems more focused on defence and contact skills.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Some did seem to get the 12 and 13 confused.

As I said the usual lineup is Hanrahan 12 Farrell 13.

Farrell is raw but I think is the type of big physical centre the game is demanding these days.

You will see Nelson on the fringes of the Ulster team next year

I haven't been that impressed with Farrell yet, and I think Spence already fits the big physical centre criteria.

Farrell has a lot of potential, you have to remember he is quite young. He has a lot more attributes than his size, he is normally an excellent passer and kicker.

Im still confused as to why luke mcgrath wasnt starting...will he start against england?

Morgannwg wrote:

rodders wrote:Look foward to watching it Thomond. Was a bit concerned that under ruddock our kids were focusing too much on attacking skills and throwing the ball around and not enough on the basics, rucking, contact skills, defence etc....the Welsh way if you like.....

Really? I'd say the Irish play is quite the opposite of Ruddocks way, and that is what's best suited to them as they seem to execute it well. Every Irish U20 team I have seen play seems more focused on defence and contact skills.

Thats exactly my point.

He doesn't really use his size that much though from what I have seen. I don't think he will be nearly as good as Spence.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Im still confused as to why luke mcgrath wasnt starting...will he start against england?

Marmion is a more physical player and we needed the extra strength. Ruddock has favoured splitting the gametime between the scrumhalves all year so I would expect that McGrath will start the next game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He doesn't really use his size that much though from what I have seen. I don't think he will be nearly as good as Spence.

He is only 19 tbf, I don't think last night was a game for him to be trying to use his size. Time will tell on how good he can be, but its too soon to be judging him imo.

Yeah but so is the rest of his team. Hanrahan, Jackson, Henderson etc have all shown their qualities already. All I am saying is that I haven't seen much from Farrell yet. Not really sure what he offers over any other options, apart from being very tall.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah but so is the rest of his team. Hanrahan, Jackson, Henderson etc have all shown their qualities already. All I am saying is that I haven't seen much from Farrell yet. Not really sure what he offers over any other options, apart from being very tall.

I've only seen him in an Irish shirt at u20 level and against Leinster but from people I know back home, he is rated highly. Henderson, JJ and Jackson are all 20 and have an extra year of development. JJ and Jackson played at this level last year and will have learned a lot from that experience. Its nice for us to have a lot of options at the moment and he might not make it as a pro but I still think its a bit early to be judging him as he is still eligible for the u20s next year so I'll give him at least until then.

Valjester is spot on Farrell is a year behind most of his team mates in development.

Yeah he is in my year, I have played against the guy before. Best (the 13) was always the dangerous one in their team.

In the 2011 Schools Cup final I thought Rory Scholes looked to be the player with the most potential in that team. What do you think of him RG?

He was the best by a fair bit in that game. I agree.

valjester wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah but so is the rest of his team. Hanrahan, Jackson, Henderson etc have all shown their qualities already. All I am saying is that I haven't seen much from Farrell yet. Not really sure what he offers over any other options, apart from being very tall.

I've only seen him in an Irish shirt at u20 level and against Leinster but from people I know back home, he is rated highly. Henderson, JJ and Jackson are all 20 and have an extra year of development. JJ and Jackson played at this level last year and will have learned a lot from that experience. Its nice for us to have a lot of options at the moment and he might not make it as a pro but I still think its a bit early to be judging him as he is still eligible for the u20s next year so I'll give him at least until then.

JJ is 19 (will be 20 at the end of July).

Tadgh Furlong is also 19 - won't be 20 until Nov. which will probably rule him out for next year. Pity.

Sin, you never got back to me about the barbarians game. You told me it was wishful thinking when I said that Laulala is an out and out 13, as he was apparently playing 12 in that barbarians game. Well, did you see the game?

I wonder if you will admit you are wrong for once.

Farrell was playing U18's rugby last year. He has been solid without being spectacular for the U20's so far.

I'd rate him higher than Spense.

The reason Farrell is highly rated and is xpected to make it is mainly because ofhis size. He is over 16st already and theres room for more mass on his frame. He will be almost 17st when finished developing I'd say. But thats not all. He has decent hands, has pace, good defense and is intelligent.

Nevin Spense is 15st, a good player at provincial level but it remains to be seen if he could become a decent international. I'm not convinced. I think his skill level is below international level. Luke Marshall, Farrell and Eoin Griffin are the 3 Irish centers to look out for. BOD and D'Arcy will be there another year at least and Cave, P Wallace and Earls all look like being next in line under Deccie. I wouldn't mind seeing Spense getting a run out ahead of D'Arcy to see what he can do but I wouldn't be sure if he'd make th team better or worse.

He looked far more dangerous when playing with Hanrahan in the center during the 6 nations. His center partner last night - Foster Horan - is a limited player who struggles to pass the ball. I'm surprised Ruddock keeps picking Horan actually.

Farrell has a lot of improving to do but he will improve. He'll be U20 again next year. Look at Henderson this year compared to last year for example.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, you never got back to me about the barbarians game. You told me it was wishful thinking when I said that Laulala is an out and out 13, as he was apparently playing 12 in that barbarians game. Well, did you see the game?

No, I didn't see it. Did you?

What was I meant to get back to you about?

Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

profitius wrote:
The reason Farrell is highly rated and is xpected to make it is mainly because ofhis size. He is over 16st already and theres room for more mass on his frame. He will be almost 17st when finished developing I'd say. But thats not all. He has decent hands, has pace, good defense and is intelligent.

I like the cut of that jib

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

To be fair there seems to be a Leinster bias and has been for years.

Much to do with familiarity with the players at that age in the Dublin area.
Munster and Ulster players have to prove themselves more imv

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

To be fair there seems to be a Leinster bias and has been for years.

Much to do with familiarity with the players at that age in the Dublin area.
Munster and Ulster players have to prove themselves more imv

Which leinster players in the team shouldnt be there in your opinion?

Oh dear..... .....

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

Don't every recall saying that I thought Munster had the best academy in Ireland.

I do recall saying something loike that Leinster has the best academy in the whole wide world loike (copyright Leinster fans)!

Standout players last night were Furlong, Henderson & Hanrahan. And credit to the captain - he held it together, seemed very assured in interview - nice to see a few leaders coming through in Munster.

I don't why you think McGrath should have started. The Boks started to dominate when he came on. He is lacking physicality.

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

Don't every recall saying that I thought Munster had the best academy in Ireland.

I do recall saying something loike that Leinster has the best academy in the whole wide world loike (copyright Leinster fans)!

Standout players last night were Furlong, Henderson & Hanrahan. And credit to the captain - he held it together, seemed very assured in interview - nice to see a few leaders coming through in Munster.

I don't why you think McGrath should have started. The Boks started to dominate when he came on. He is lacking physicality.

You dont remember? It was like a week ago

Are you sure? I think you might have picked me up wrong. I do recall slagging off Leinsterfans for boasting about their academy, but yet Leinster came up short in the B+I Cup!

Sin é wrote:Are you sure? I think you might have picked me up wrong. I do recall slagging off Leinsterfans for boasting about their academy, but yet Leinster came up short in the B+I Cup!

Fair enough...it was a great win for that munster team

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:Are you sure? I think you might have picked me up wrong. I do recall slagging off Leinsterfans for boasting about their academy, but yet Leinster came up short in the B+I Cup!

Fair enough...it was a great win for that munster team

Now that you mention it, considering they also beat Ulster up in Ravenhill as well

Sin é wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sin é wrote:Are you sure? I think you might have picked me up wrong. I do recall slagging off Leinsterfans for boasting about their academy, but yet Leinster came up short in the B+I Cup!

Fair enough...it was a great win for that munster team

Now that you mention it, considering they also beat Ulster up in Ravenhill as well

Yep but the most importanting thing is that the future looks bright for irish rugby

geoff998rugby wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do u still think munster have the best acadamey in ireland When u consider 9 of the starting 15 play for leinster and it could have been 10 if mcgrath was starting which he should have been...

To be fair there seems to be a Leinster bias and has been for years.

Much to do with familiarity with the players at that age in the Dublin area.
Munster and Ulster players have to prove themselves more imv

Allen Clarke would be familiar with the Ulster players - and he is now Assistant Coach.

Allen Clarke has, I believe, had nothing to do with the current Academy players at Ulster.

Also mention of the B & I. Those teams are different beasts to the Academy players.

The mark of how well an academy is performing is not how well the A team plays. But i wouldn't expect you to be able to get your head around that one Sin.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, you never got back to me about the barbarians game. You told me it was wishful thinking when I said that Laulala is an out and out 13, as he was apparently playing 12 in that barbarians game. Well, did you see the game?

No, I didn't see it. Did you?

What was I meant to get back to you about?

Laulala was playing at 13, though you insisted he was playing 12 and therefore he should play there alongside Earls.

geoff998rugby wrote:Allen Clarke has, I believe, had nothing to do with the current Academy players at Ulster.

Mike Ruddock has nothing to do with the Leinster Academy either.

Also mention of the B & I. Those teams are different beasts to the Academy players.

Munster mainly use Academy players in the B+I Cup (with a spine of experience). Quite a few of them are on their first contract as well.

Hanrahan, Kilcoyne, O'Dea, DOC2, O'Hara are still in the Munster Academy and all featured in the B+I Cup this season.

Munster v Leinster: S Scanlon; L O'Dea, D Barnes, JJ Hanrahan, I Dineen; S Deasy, D Williams; D Kilcoyne, S Henry, J Ryan; B Hayes, I Nagle; B Holland (capt), B O'Mahony, P Butler. Replacements: D Fogarty for Henry (50 mins), P Borlase for J Ryan (50), C Sheridan for Williams (69); B O'Hara for O'Mahony (71), D Cusack for Hanrahan (76), P Donnellan for Holland (90-92 mins). Sin Bin: P Butler (Munster) 44 mins

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, you never got back to me about the barbarians game. You told me it was wishful thinking when I said that Laulala is an out and out 13, as he was apparently playing 12 in that barbarians game. Well, did you see the game?

No, I didn't see it. Did you?

What was I meant to get back to you about?

Laulala was playing at 13, though you insisted he was playing 12 and therefore he should play there alongside Earls.

Sky had him as starting at 12 in the team announcement (I think I copied it onto the thread. That is what I was going on). Did you see the match?

So Sin, if Munster win the B&I cup again next year but the academy don't produce players who are capable of playing at (minimum) Pro12 standard would that be acceptable?

Yeah I did, Laulala looks like he will be a great signing for you. He is brilliant at drawing in defenders and offloading. Zebo will love him.

As will Earls, from 15 or on the wing.