Rio throwing his toys out of the pram

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Ferdinand's representative: "To treat a player that has captained & served his country 81 times like this is nothing short of disgraceful."
"Total lack of respect from Hodgson & The FA as far as I'm concerned."

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Haven't read the thread but back Rio 100%. Disgraceful behaviour by Roy and the FA, inexcusable.

How is it taking a stand against racism when you take a racist subject to criminal charges who has had a cack season ahead of Rio. Not football reasons at all. It's Terry's racism being excused.

England are a joke.

Why would England take Terry just to excuse his alleged racism?
Does terry own the FA or something?

The FA is meant to be taking a stand against racism, see the Kick It Out campaign, taking him to the Euro's when he's subject to charges of racism and then not taking the victim's brother when there clearly are no 'football reasons' backing it up is disgraceful.

Top hat considering we all know what he said - do you think what he said is really truely racist? or just something stupid said in an inflamed situation. For me racism is about treating someone of a different creed or colour differently, not neccesarily using a descriptive word within an offensive comment in the heat of the moment(esp when the discriptive word isnt the offensive part of the comment).

personally i think the problem is that he lied about what he said(because it obviously cant be prooved) because of people thinking it is truely racist- and if he admits to it he will be seen as racist by being guilty of racism.

We know terry lies, we know he does some truely horrid things. But should we really be calling him racist- he has never ever done anything(from my knowledge) anything truely racist. is calling someone a black c... in an inflamed situ, any worse than calling someone a c...

or is it just something that slipped of his tounge, which only prooves he could be around people that say those things on a regular basis(his family)- remember things like black 'whatever' or asian this , or chinky that, etc etc were said on british tv by the dozen every day- possibly only 10 years ago!

Ultimately he can't trust Rio to play in every game, let alone stay healthy. And beyond that his forms dipped.

Rio isn't first choice anymore, and it makes more sense to have backups that will be readily available.

Best season in 2-3 years playing most regularly and injury free for a long time and he's played as frequently as required already this season so most of that is rubbish, GSC.

Terry has had an awful season on the other hand, both in terms of form on the field and incidents such as the Barca sending off and racism charges.

mystiroakey wrote:Top hat considering we all know what he said - do you think what he said is really truely racist? or just something stupid said in an inflamed situation. For me racism is about treating someone of a different creed or colour differently, not neccesarily using a descriptive word within an offensive comment in the heat of the moment(esp when the discriptive word isnt the offensive part of the comment).

personally i think the problem is that he lied about what he said(because it obviously cant be prooved) because of people thinking it is truely racist- and if he admits to it he will be seen as racist by being guilty of racism.

We know terry lies, we know he does some truely horrid things. But should we really be calling him racist- he has never ever done anything(from my knowledge) anything truely racist. is calling someone a black c... in an inflamed situ, any worse than calling someone a c...

or is it just something that slipped of his tounge, which only prooves he could be around people that say those things on a regular basis(his family)- remember things like black 'whatever' or asian this , or chinky that, etc etc were said on british tv by the dozen every day- possibly only 10 years ago!

He defined his insult according to the colour of the subject of his insult's skin, therefore I do think it was racist.

He just insulted him pal. The black part obviously rolled of the tounge. Not a good thing to say at all. But the insult wasnt because he was black- we need to understand what is truely important and what isnt. The good thing is is that words to define races or ethnicities or colours are being cut out of the media. It shouldnt roll of the tounge with the young generation in this country. But lets open our eyes and discuss real racism, rather than worrying about petty arguments

innocent until proven guilty eh TopHat?

I think it's quite funny the way Man U fans are all getting their knickers in a twist about Rio not being picked despite his own manager saying he wasn't fit enough. Even funnier that Roy is picking pretty much every EQ player from a club who finished 8th in the League (but did win the Mickey Mouse cup). Yep, the FA were so right to get rid of Capello

mystiroakey wrote:He just insulted him pal. The black part obviously rolled of the tounge. Not a good thing to say at all. But the insult wasnt because he was black- we need to understand what is truely important and what isnt. The good thing is is that words to define races or ethnicities or colours are being cut out of the media. It shouldnt roll of the tounge with the young generation in this country. But lets open our eyes and discuss real racism, rather than worrying about petty arguments

It is phrases and attitude like this that allow racism to fester and breed.

I dont think so tophat- i think understanding why people do things and really getting to the root of the problem is what solves racism

If he had shouted at...Joey Barton, for example, he wouldn't have said "F*****g White C**t!" would he?

The 'black' part was using black in a derogatory manner, the fact that he said it without thinking does not make it okay, in the same way, stabbing somebody without thinking is not okay.

It was a racist statement. It doesn't mean he is racist, but he did use a racial slur.

or maybe he's innocent until proven guilty? like let's wait for the trial before jumping to conclusions.

Oh silly me, it's JT, of course he's guilty...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:or maybe he's innocent until proven guilty? like let's wait for the trial before jumping to conclusions.

Oh silly me, it's JT, of course he's guilty...

Pretty much.

you dont stab someone without thinking crimey lol. Please dont use those sort of over zealous examples as comparisons, its how people are conditioned. thankfully we are all conditioned to know not to stab people!!!!

We are becoming conditioned to stop using descriptive words to describe a person within an insult. but its just a process that takes time

You cannot excuse somebody of racism because of that though. It's not like John Terry is living in some excluded part of the world, he knows it's unacceptable to call somebody a 'black c**t', that's why he has denied it.

He knows it's racist, we know it's racist and excusing it as part of the culture and conditioning is absolutely ridiculous. It's true that education will help, but John Terry knows it's wrong already, that's why he's denied it despite video evidence of him saying it!!!

Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

by the way if you didnt allready know this - programmes (including only fools and horses) are doctored on reruns to take out any potential 'racist slurs'.

I look at terry as your typical chav 'come good'.

he comes from a background that cant stop doing what they used to(before money got involved)

his mum keeps getting caught stealing ffs!!

they just cant stop there impulsive behaviour! its sad but we have to accept thats the world we live in and push forward

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

Don't patronise me.

If Terry thinks it's acceptable, why did he deny it?

MILLIONS of people used the media at the same time as Terry, yet there aren't MILLIONS of people making racist slurs every day.

John Terry may not be racist, but calling somebody a "f******g black c**t" is a racist insult. He did treat Ferdinand different because of the colour of his skin, because he called him a "black c**t" rather than just a "c**t".

Are you honestly suggesting that Terry was simply using "black" as a description of Ferdinand, not using it derogatorily, that's what you seem to be saying, and if so, I seriously don't want to waste my time arguing with somebody who thinks that Terry was simply describing him. If you do think he was using it in a derogatory manner, then it doesn't matter why, he's made a racial slur and should be punished appropriately for it.

Crimey i have made it very clear that i believe it was an impulsive jesture. You can try and interpret that in anyway you wish, but it does seem you are missunderstanding the point being made, but it seems pretty clear to me

Impulsive or not, it was racist.

Punching somebody in the face on an impulse, which it does happen, is still assault.

and calling people a c... on impulse still happens.

Is that right?

Should people be praised for not adding a skin tone to the insult.

Look i am not condoneing it- just trying to understand.

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey i have made it very clear that i believe it was an impulsive jesture. You can try and interpret that in anyway you wish, but it does seem you are missunderstanding the point being made, but it seems pretty clear to me

Calling someone the C word is insulting. Adding the person's colour assumes that the person's colour is also a problem and a bad thing to be black. Impulsive? Probably, but to act on an impulse in such a manner shows me a deeper problem in Terry. He is a racist if that is what he said.

mystiroakey wrote:and calling people a c... on impulse still happens.

Is that right?

Should people be praised for not adding a skin tone to the insult.

Look i am not condoneing it- just trying to understand.

Should you be praised if you take a dump in the toilet? Taking a dump is a natural thing.

Yes, that still happens.

Not adding a skin tone is better than adding a skin tone, because adding the skin tone turns it into a racial slur.

You are condoning it though, you have said that it just rolled off of the tongue and it's because of conditioning. That's irrelevant, not everybody who was under the influence of the same media as Terry uses racial slurs.

John Terry racially insulted Anton Ferdinand and deserves the right punishment, which is actually just a fine. To try and justify it by blaming culture and the media misses the point.

Az what do you think anyway?. i mean seriously. I know your background. I would like to here your take on it- obviously terry hasnt been charged with anything- but lets just say he 100% said it for a theoritical purpose

Crimey wrote:Yes, that still happens.

Not adding a skin tone is better than adding a skin tone, because adding the skin tone turns it into a racial slur.

You are condoning it though, you have said that it just rolled off of the tongue and it's because of conditioning. That's irrelevant, not everybody who was under the influence of the same media as Terry uses racial slurs.

John Terry racially insulted Anton Ferdinand and deserves the right punishment, which is actually just a fine. To try and justify it by blaming culture and the media misses the point.

I think we have to blame culture, and then fix culture, thats how we move forward

mystiroakey wrote:

Crimey wrote:Yes, that still happens.

Not adding a skin tone is better than adding a skin tone, because adding the skin tone turns it into a racial slur.

You are condoning it though, you have said that it just rolled off of the tongue and it's because of conditioning. That's irrelevant, not everybody who was under the influence of the same media as Terry uses racial slurs.

John Terry racially insulted Anton Ferdinand and deserves the right punishment, which is actually just a fine. To try and justify it by blaming culture and the media misses the point.

I think we have to blame culture, and then fix culture, thats how we move forward

In the long-term yes.

In the short-term, people who use racial slurs should be punished.

I have elevated this discussion crimey. I am treating terry as one of thousands upon thousands if not millions..

If I am only basing this on terry- then there is one good thing that has come out of it- He is gonna think twice next time- thats for sure

But i am not gonna judge him as being a racist. Anyway we should be very gratefull that we live in a country that is moving forward. This would have been sweeped under the carpet in many other countries

well it's clear Crimey's already made his mind up on Terry's guilt. I'm just going to say I'm glad it's being dealt with in court rather than an internal investigation. If it were, the press would be putting so much pressure on the FA that Terry would have no chance.

In fairness to crimey- I am talking about this from a theoritcial place as if he did do it.. He maybe as well

But.. going back to the incident.

Does anyone know if anyone but anton heared what terry said?

can this be proved in court, or is it one persons word against anothers

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well it's clear Crimey's already made his mind up on Terry's guilt. I'm just going to say I'm glad it's being dealt with in court rather than an internal investigation. If it were, the press would be putting so much pressure on the FA that Terry would have no chance.

There is pretty conclusive video evidence of him shouting "f*****g black c**t" towards Anton Ferdinand, and the person who reported it in the crowd obviously heard it.

ok well thast answered my question anyway, so there is a witness

Anton Ferdinand didn't hear it.

It was a member of public who reported it, and then presumably Ferdinand has seen video evidence later.

ta

mystiroakey wrote:Az what do you think anyway?. i mean seriously. I know your background. I would like to here your take on it- obviously terry hasnt been charged with anything- but lets just say he 100% said it for a theoritical purpose

Assuming he is guilty of saying what he is being charged with saying, then the whole library should be thrown at him not just the book. Infults are part and parcel of daily life. Racially insulting someone else is not. That he said is all there is to know about his subconscious thought.

He thinks referring to a black man as "black" is insulting. And that is the mind set of a racist. He thinks black is beneath him and ergo an insult.

well it's caught on video I think. Terry's defense BTW is not that he didn't say the words "f*cking black c*nt" but rather that Anton accused him of calling him one (when he hadn't) and that in response he replied "I didn't call you a f*cking black c*nt".

Going back to the original point of the thread, Rio's not in the squad because he's not good enough (read not fit enough). Terry is. The fact that Rio is a better person or was once captain of the team doesn't make him an automatic pick, otherwise we'd have the Dalai Lama and Bobby Moore in the squad...

Crimey: innocent until proven guilty? nope, obviously not for you...

AZ ta for your input.

I think the problem is is that there are just so many people like that in the world, and that is in a sense xenaphobic behaviour rather than clear racism. So many people feel differently to others and that isnt just relevant between races, but also classes, religions, nationalities,sexuality etc etc. Its a much bigger picture if you will AZ.

There are real problems with just racism in this world(were races are truely treated differently within society) and i almost think we are trivialsing them abit by lumping this naive abuse with it!

Crimey: innocent until proven guilty? nope, obviously not for you...

It was a debate based on what the reaction should be if Terry is found guilty.

Although, I'd be very surprised if he isn't guilty, considering the amount of evidence against him and a pretty poor defence.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well it's caught on video I think. Terry's defense BTW is not that he didn't say the words "f*cking black c*nt" but rather that Anton accused him of calling him one (when he hadn't) and that in response he replied "I didn't call you a f*cking black c*nt".

Going back to the original point of the thread, Rio's not in the squad because he's not good enough (read not fit enough). Terry is. The fact that Rio is a better person or was once captain of the team doesn't make him an automatic pick, otherwise we'd have the Dalai Lama and Bobby Moore in the squad...

Crimey: innocent until proven guilty? nope, obviously not for you...

Didn't he say he called Anton a F'n BLIND Cnt?

mystiroakey wrote:AZ ta for your input.

I think the problem is is that there are just so many people like that in the world, and that is in a sense xenaphobic behaviour rather than clear racism. So many people feel differently to others and that isnt just relevant between races, but also classes, religions, nationalities,sexuality etc etc. Its a much bigger picture if you will AZ.

There are real problems with just racism in this world(were races are truely treated differently within society) and i almost think we are trivialsing them abit by lumping this naive abuse with it!

I understand what you are trying to say. I disagree. By Terry referring to Anton's colour, he clearly believes that being black is somehow lower and below him as a white person. A clear racist mindset.

I recall Vinny Jones claiming that he racially abused an opposing player within ear shot of Fash. Fash pulled him aside and told him what for. Vinny said it was the best education he ever received. It shouldn't be tolerated and should be punished when it rears its head and educated out of siciety simultaneously.

Good on fash.

But also good on vinnie in a way. Admitting what he did and admitting he was at fault is surely the way to go.. It sort of proves my point really, i honestly believe almost everyone has said some out of order stuff about different races,religions,sexes,classe,nationalities, but it doesnt mean they will ever harm others(in anyway) or not help anyone when needed!

Just calling someone a chav could well be seen in the same light in 20 years. dont think i am joking guys. I really am not. There really isnt much difference when you break it down

Referring to someone race when insulting them has never been acceptable.

insulting isnt acceptable.

insulting people for being different isnt acceptable, or should i say shouldnt be acceptable. lets not sweep other issues like sexuality, classes, nationalites, etc undre the carpet. Its all a problem and the same problem in my eyes. Its prejudiced and comes from a fear of what is different

And it is kind off very apt that you mentioned fash- because in actuall fact it wasnt the racist insults that caused him issues - was it. It was his sexuality!!

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

The only way age is relevant to this is that Terry is/was old enough to know better.

The rest of what you are saying is, frankly, depressing and goes back to my earlier point about this dismissive attitude to more 'casual' racism being a breeding ground for stronger racism.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well it's clear Crimey's already made his mind up on Terry's guilt. I'm just going to say I'm glad it's being dealt with in court rather than an internal investigation. If it were, the press would be putting so much pressure on the FA that Terry would have no chance.

Did you watch the video and come to some bizarre alternative conclusion as to what words Terry was mouthing or are you just another moronic football fan that can't see past loyalty to his club's badge?

mystiroakey wrote:And it is kind off very apt that you mentioned fash- because in actuall fact it wasnt the racist insults that caused him issues - was it. It was his sexuality!!

He's talking about John not Justin.

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:And it is kind off very apt that you mentioned fash- because in actuall fact it wasnt the racist insults that caused him issues - was it. It was his sexuality!!

He's talking about John not Justin.

Yes, John Fashnu disowned his brother when he came out. He was homophobic.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

The only way age is relevant to this is that Terry is/was old enough to know better.

The rest of what you are saying is, frankly, depressing and goes back to my earlier point about this dismissive attitude to more 'casual' racism being a breeding ground for stronger racism.

i cant disagree more- you have to understand to solve. Its not depressing as such as its fact!! dismissing the facts is the breeding ground

Hibbz wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:And it is kind off very apt that you mentioned fash- because in actuall fact it wasnt the racist insults that caused him issues - was it. It was his sexuality!!

He's talking about John not Justin.

point still stands though. kinda ironic though isnt it if what crimey says is true. So many people are guilty of predudice. It all needs solving

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:well it's clear Crimey's already made his mind up on Terry's guilt. I'm just going to say I'm glad it's being dealt with in court rather than an internal investigation. If it were, the press would be putting so much pressure on the FA that Terry would have no chance.

Did you watch the video and come to some bizarre alternative conclusion as to what words Terry was mouthing or are you just another moronic football fan that can't see past loyalty to his club's badge?

I did watch, I also notice that Terry is not denying using the words "f*cking black c*nt", more the context in which he was using them (see my earlier post: "I didn't call you a f*cking black c*nt"). Nice of you to immediately start with the insults BTW.

If we're discussing hypothetical, and Terry is found guilty (the "if" is important here despite those who have already made their mind up), then he should get the book thrown at him, a long ban and a hefty fine, should certainly never play for England again. We can talk about "heat of the moment", "just an insult with the colour added in" etc. all you like. He was captain of his country, still is captain of his club, and as such has a duty to lead by example.