Rio throwing his toys out of the pram

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Ferdinand's representative: "To treat a player that has captained & served his country 81 times like this is nothing short of disgraceful."
"Total lack of respect from Hodgson & The FA as far as I'm concerned."

MFC should this really be the tipping point when it comes to terry. Surely what he has done in the past should have kicked him out of england and as chelsea captain!

what is it with him tho- how does he get away with it?

what, playing around with an English team-mate's EX girlfriend?!?! Hang him, I say...

While of course Rio (of the missed drug tests) and Stevie (of the assault people) have such immaculate records

He gets away with it by being the best leader in England by a very large margin (hence how every single manager since Ranieri has made him their first choice captain), and by being the best English Centre-half since Tony Adams at least, arguably since Terry Butcher.

Simples.

I must say this thread has taken a rather depressing turn.

You can talk about innocent until proven guilty all you like. As far as Im concerned there is enough evidence in this very high profile case for the CPS to decide that it should go to trial.
That being the case during this period Terry should not be available for selection by England who are are very muich high profile in the Football Against Racism campaign, it sends completely the wrong message to select him. Obviously if it turns out he is innocent he should then he should be free to be selected.
Not that Id pick the scumbag carthourse mind you.

Diggers wrote:You can talk about innocent until proven guilty all you like. As far as Im concerned there is enough evidence in this very high profile case for the CPS to decide that it should go to trial.
That being the case during this period Terry should not be available for selection by England who are are very muich high profile in the Football Against Racism campaign, it sends completely the wrong message to select him. Obviously if it turns out he is innocent he should then he should be free to be selected.
Not that Id pick the scumbag carthourse mind you.

You were going quite well until your last sentence, so let's ignore that. I'd actually have understood the FA's stance if they'd told Capello "you can't pick him while the investigation is on-going". I think Capello would have too. What he couldn't accept was them saying "you can pick him, but he can't be captain". That was an @rse-covering move by the FA, purely because they know how important to England's chances Terry was, and were scared of the backlash had they made him unavailable and England then flopped (this is my take on the incident anyway).

However, once he's available the manager whose job isn't to make political decisions but purely footballing ones (picking the best team) is quite right to select him if he believes England are a stronger team/squad with him than without. Clearly that's what Roy has decided here.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:what, playing around with an English team-mate's EX girlfriend?!?! Hang him, I say...

While of course Rio (of the missed drug tests) and Stevie (of the assault people) have such immaculate records

He gets away with it by being the best leader in England by a very large margin (hence how every single manager since Ranieri has made him their first choice captain), and by being the best English Centre-half since Tony Adams at least, arguably since Terry Butcher.

Simples.

I loved his leadership qualities at the last world cup, they did so much for team spirit. Oh hang on, what I meant to say was he spoke completely out of turn and was totally divisive to squad spirit. Also Ferdinand IMO has been and still is streets ahead of him as a footballer.

you're entitled to your opinion. The last three England managers (at least) seem to disagree with you though. Ferdinand at his best was close to Terry IMO, sadly (for England) Ferdinand is some way past his best now.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:what, playing around with an English team-mate's EX girlfriend?!?! Hang him, I say...

While of course Rio (of the missed drug tests) and Stevie (of the assault people) have such immaculate records

He gets away with it by being the best leader in England by a very large margin (hence how every single manager since Ranieri has made him their first choice captain), and by being the best English Centre-half since Tony Adams at least, arguably since Terry Butcher.

Simples.

because of his actions he has affected morale in the team before- and yet we are still willing to allow the same stiu again(if its proven).

This is madness from my pov. i am sorry- people do silly things- but when the player directly influences the team in non football realtyed matters and that plahyer is still picked it is madness. In all fairness i dont care about what they do off the field- If those antics affect the team- then i will speak my mind. Its kinda simple to me

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:what, playing around with an English team-mate's EX girlfriend?!?! Hang him, I say...

While of course Rio (of the missed drug tests) and Stevie (of the assault people) have such immaculate records

He gets away with it by being the best leader in England by a very large margin (hence how every single manager since Ranieri has made him their first choice captain), and by being the best English Centre-half since Tony Adams at least, arguably since Terry Butcher.

Simples.

I loved his leadership qualities at the last world cup, they did so much for team spirit. Oh hang on, what I meant to say was he spoke completely out of turn and was totally divisive to squad spirit. Also Ferdinand IMO has been and still is streets ahead of him as a footballer.

I loved leadership qualities of booting someone up the jacksy, getting sent off, concocting a weak excuse, leaving his team mates to win a trophy and then bowling up parading the trophy in full kit as though he'd been there all along.

speculation. No one inside the England (and certainly Chelsea) camp has ever said that Terry has divided the squad, affected morale, or anything else. Once again the media go on their crusade and people lap it up. If Bridge is upset by his EX sleeping with someone it's kind of his problem IMO.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:you're entitled to your opinion. The last three England managers (at least) seem to disagree with you though. Ferdinand at his best was close to Terry IMO, sadly (for England) Ferdinand is some way past his best now.

I dont really see that you can honestly say Terry had a better season that Ferdinand last year ? Terry was really poor and Ferdinand with some decent fitness back played well. When both fit and in their pomp there really wasnt a comparison to be made.

Just because he wanted to pick terry doesn't mean he needed to leave rio out - which is the crux of the matter.

mystiroakey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

The only way age is relevant to this is that Terry is/was old enough to know better.

The rest of what you are saying is, frankly, depressing and goes back to my earlier point about this dismissive attitude to more 'casual' racism being a breeding ground for stronger racism.

i cant disagree more- you have to understand to solve. Its not depressing as such as its fact!! dismissing the facts is the breeding ground

Yes you have to understand to solve, but you are using it to excuse which is wrong.

one lead an ageing squad to FA cup and CL glory (admittedly he didn't play the CL final, but played a huge part in Chelsea getting there). the other won zilch (after his team conceding 4 goals at home to Everton among other things). Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion over their respective abilities, but it seems the last few England managers disagree with you.

Ent wrote:Just because he wanted to pick terry doesn't mean he needed to leave rio out - which is the crux of the matter.

ah now this is another problem altogether. I'd have taken Rio personally, if not in the original 23 (Cahill and Lescott are probably ahead of him at the mo) than certainly ahead of Martin Kelly. Thing is, Roy wanted players who'd been training with the squad and who he therefore knew were match-fit (at least that's how I read it, I don't see how else we can consider Kelly to be a better choice).

Mad for Chelsea wrote:one lead an ageing squad to FA cup and CL glory (admittedly he didn't play the CL final, but played a huge part in Chelsea getting there). the other won zilch (after his team conceding 4 goals at home to Everton among other things). Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion over their respective abilities, but it seems the last few England managers disagree with you.

Chelsea won the Champions League despite John Terry, not because of him.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Crimey it maybe because you are young that you are naive to this- but descriptive words to describe etnicities were plastered on our tellys and our media countless times every day.

When you are conditioned by something- it can take alot of time getting out of the habbit. Its really that simple- what he said not meant in a racist way. He is your typical wrongon chav. But he did not treat ferdinand in any different way because of his colour

The only way age is relevant to this is that Terry is/was old enough to know better.

The rest of what you are saying is, frankly, depressing and goes back to my earlier point about this dismissive attitude to more 'casual' racism being a breeding ground for stronger racism.

i cant disagree more- you have to understand to solve. Its not depressing as such as its fact!! dismissing the facts is the breeding ground

Yes you have to understand to solve, but you are using it to excuse which is wrong.

I am treating terry like i would another other in any other situation like this(insulting anyone who is different)- this behaviour happens all throughout the world all the time. I am trying to discuss what we percieve as wrong and why we percieve it as wrong, i am not excusing the behaviour- but blaming the source of the behaviour in this discussion. I am not talking about terry personally because lets be honest he isnt even guilty of it yet.

Crimey wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:one lead an ageing squad to FA cup and CL glory (admittedly he didn't play the CL final, but played a huge part in Chelsea getting there). the other won zilch (after his team conceding 4 goals at home to Everton among other things). Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion over their respective abilities, but it seems the last few England managers disagree with you.

Chelsea won the Champions League despite John Terry, not because of him.

rubbish. Chelsea wouldn't have got past Napoli without him, they wouldn't have beaten Barcelona in the first leg without him (which did after all set up the tie).

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:what, playing around with an English team-mate's EX girlfriend?!?! Hang him, I say...

While of course Rio (of the missed drug tests) and Stevie (of the assault people) have such immaculate records

He gets away with it by being the best leader in England by a very large margin (hence how every single manager since Ranieri has made him their first choice captain), and by being the best English Centre-half since Tony Adams at least, arguably since Terry Butcher.

Simples.

I loved his leadership qualities at the last world cup, they did so much for team spirit. Oh hang on, what I meant to say was he spoke completely out of turn and was totally divisive to squad spirit. Also Ferdinand IMO has been and still is streets ahead of him as a footballer.

Don't forget the wonderful leadership he showed in the pivotal Champtions League semi....when he got sent off for kneeing a guy up the jacksie!

And re "best English centre-half since Tony Adams", the collective wisdom of this forum would appear to disagree as he came nowhere near Ferdinand (or Adams) in the poll carried out a couple of months back.

He's had a rubbish season too, twice fell on his arris allowing runaway goals for example. That's the most insulting thing of all, Rio's actually had twice as good a season as him and has appeared in only 1 league game less than Terry this season which blows away the fitness/injury prone argument.

If this had happened either of the two previous seasons then there would be justifiable 'football reasons' for dropping him and favouring Terry. This season there aren't.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:one lead an ageing squad to FA cup and CL glory (admittedly he didn't play the CL final, but played a huge part in Chelsea getting there). the other won zilch (after his team conceding 4 goals at home to Everton among other things). Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion over their respective abilities, but it seems the last few England managers disagree with you.

Cheers, I wasnt really asking for your permission to have an opinion but you are very kind to allow me one. If you want to make a comparision on form from last year why dont you take a look at the goals against columns in the Premiership for Man Utd and Chelsea. They seem to favour Ferdinand.

"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Mad for Chelsea wrote:"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Have you seen how many starts for England Downing has had lately ? Do you agree with him being picked to often ?

MFC i think terry is a very decent player- and the fact is he has been picked. But he does and has casued rifts in the team(i really am certain of that)

your right though- the powers at be should know more. But surely you can understand peoples paranoia when it comes to anyone in power of football!!

Either way i am backing him and i think he was picked due to the chelsea core hodgson was looking at utilsing- that has dissemated now- so its kinda sad we havent got rio as a back up

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Have you seen how many starts for England Downing has had lately ? Do you agree with him being picked to often ?

I do.

Downing is a quality player.

Electric Demon wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Have you seen how many starts for England Downing has had lately ? Do you agree with him being picked to often ?

I do.

Downing is a quality player.

Actually so do I, but most people wouldnt make a case for him even being in the squad. As MFC is saying we should accept the manager as being right re Terry Id like to know if this is the case with Downing.

mystiroakey wrote:MFC i think terry is a very decent player- and the fact is he has been picked. But he does and has casued rifts in the team(i really am certain of that)

your right though- the powers at be should know more. But surely you can understand peoples paranoia when it comes to anyone in power of football!!

Either way i am backing him and i think he was picked due to the chelsea core hodgson was looking at utilsing- that has dissemated now- so its kinda sad we havent got rio as a back up

can't be bothered to do fancy segmenting stuff, so:

first paragraph: you may be certain. I honestly think that if so many managers continue not only picking him but making him captain the good must outweigh the bad pretty heavily. For the record, when Stevie was captain we:
- lost the two crucial qualifiers which led to us not qualifying to euro 08.
- had a dismal world cup.
With Terry as captain we've qualified convincingly for the last two international tournaments.

second paragraph: I understand the paranoia, but it doesn't help the team. Terry isn't a nice person, but he's a tremendous leader and footballer. That for me is enough. People want sportsmen nowadays to be "nice", but IMO it's very difficult to make it to the very top of any sport while being "nice".

third paragraph: I would certainly have preferred Rio to Martin Kelly.

I'm actually glad Terry has been picked as it has removed any last vestiges of guilt I may have had for cheering for England's demise.

Hibbz wrote:I'm actually glad Terry has been picked as it has removed any last vestiges of guilt I may have had for cheering for England's demise.

Oh dont be like that Hibbz- come back to us pal

you and your flaming Germnas

Diggers wrote:

Electric Demon wrote:

Diggers wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Have you seen how many starts for England Downing has had lately ? Do you agree with him being picked to often ?

I do.

Downing is a quality player.

Actually so do I, but most people wouldnt make a case for him even being in the squad. As MFC is saying we should accept the manager as being right re Terry Id like to know if this is the case with Downing.

nope, but neither did Capello. Terry has been universally championed by all his managers over his career: Ranieri, Mourinho, Scolari, Hiddink, Ancelotti, Capello. (alright, McClaren, Grant, AVB, Di Matteo as well if you want to be pedantic, but still an impressive list).

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:MFC i think terry is a very decent player- and the fact is he has been picked. But he does and has casued rifts in the team(i really am certain of that)

your right though- the powers at be should know more. But surely you can understand peoples paranoia when it comes to anyone in power of football!!

Either way i am backing him and i think he was picked due to the chelsea core hodgson was looking at utilsing- that has dissemated now- so its kinda sad we havent got rio as a back up

can't be bothered to do fancy segmenting stuff, so:

first paragraph: you may be certain. I honestly think that if so many managers continue not only picking him but making him captain the good must outweigh the bad pretty heavily. For the record, when Stevie was captain we:
- lost the two crucial qualifiers which led to us not qualifying to euro 08.
- had a dismal world cup.
With Terry as captain we've qualified convincingly for the last two international tournaments.
second paragraph: I understand the paranoia, but it doesn't help the team. Terry isn't a nice person, but he's a tremendous leader and footballer. That for me is enough. People want sportsmen nowadays to be "nice", but IMO it's very difficult to make it to the very top of any sport while being "nice".

third paragraph: I would certainly have preferred Rio to Martin Kelly.

What is the importance of being captain? Do you thik the players will play better with Terry as Capt? If Kelly were capt they would still play the same.

azania wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:MFC i think terry is a very decent player- and the fact is he has been picked. But he does and has casued rifts in the team(i really am certain of that)

your right though- the powers at be should know more. But surely you can understand peoples paranoia when it comes to anyone in power of football!!

Either way i am backing him and i think he was picked due to the chelsea core hodgson was looking at utilsing- that has dissemated now- so its kinda sad we havent got rio as a back up

can't be bothered to do fancy segmenting stuff, so:

first paragraph: you may be certain. I honestly think that if so many managers continue not only picking him but making him captain the good must outweigh the bad pretty heavily. For the record, when Stevie was captain we:
- lost the two crucial qualifiers which led to us not qualifying to euro 08.
- had a dismal world cup.
With Terry as captain we've qualified convincingly for the last two international tournaments.
second paragraph: I understand the paranoia, but it doesn't help the team. Terry isn't a nice person, but he's a tremendous leader and footballer. That for me is enough. People want sportsmen nowadays to be "nice", but IMO it's very difficult to make it to the very top of any sport while being "nice".

third paragraph: I would certainly have preferred Rio to Martin Kelly.

What is the importance of being captain? Do you thik the players will play better with Terry as Capt? If Kelly were capt they would still play the same.

I disagree. I believe Terry as captain lifted the team. I believe he still lifts Chelsea when he captains them. As I said the empirical evidence backs me up on this.

Actually Capello started Downing a lot and used him as sub a lot. Are you saying that was the correct thing for Capello to do in your opinion ? Is it correct for Hodgson to take and play him ?
Or is it that England selections are only correct when it suits your purposes ?

Sorry MFC, that is seriously ridiculous. The results are coincidental. Only the Brits take the capt's role so seriously. Brazil have had capts making their debuts. Just because Drogba sees terry with the armband on doesn't mean he'll play better. In fact Chelsea defended better without Terry in the CL final. They played better when he was off the field against Barca. Better with 10 men. The emperical evidence backs me up on this.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:"collective wisdom of this forum". Yes, I'm this forum is more knowledgeable about football than those whose job it is to actually select teams, etc. Thanks for that, made my day

Given that Rio has roughly 10 more caps than Terry (but having started his international career younger) I'd say they've been roughly picked the same which suggests the he's only been 'preferred' in the sense of the Captaincy and I would, until recently, agree that one of Terry's strengths over Rio is his better leadership qualities.

There is no evidence, from any management set-up, to suggest Terry is regarded higher than Rio. Personally I'd order Prem defenders (excl. those like Stam that only had short stints) as follows:

Adams
Ferdinand
Campbell
Terry
Vidic

Diggers wrote:Actually Capello started Downing a lot and used him as sub a lot. Are you saying that was the correct thing for Capello to do in your opinion ? Is it correct for Hodgson to take and play him ?
Or is it that England selections are only correct when it suits your purposes ?

I believe that the manager always has more information than the general public, and as such back his decisions. I may disagree with some of them (Downing and Kelly in this case) but will never suggest that I know better.

azania wrote:Sorry MFC, that is seriously ridiculous. The results are coincidental. Only the Brits take the capt's role so seriously. Brazil have had capts making their debuts. Just because Drogba sees terry with the armband on doesn't mean he'll play better. In fact Chelsea defended better without Terry in the CL final. They played better when he was off the field against Barca. Better with 10 men. The emperical evidence backs me up on this.

Funnily enough the exact same argument can be made regarding Steven Gerrard.....

azania wrote:Sorry MFC, that is seriously ridiculous. The results are coincidental. Only the Brits take the capt's role so seriously. Brazil have had capts making their debuts. Just because Drogba sees terry with the armband on doesn't mean he'll play better. In fact Chelsea defended better without Terry in the CL final. They played better when he was off the field against Barca. Better with 10 men. The emperical evidence backs me up on this.

better than when? I would say Chelsea's best defensive performance was the first leg of the semi (you know the one they kept a clean sheet in). Terry played that one. We'll have to agree to disagree on the captaincy thing. It's easy to call things that don't suit your argument "coincidental".

Dont start me on stephen gerrard

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

azania wrote:Sorry MFC, that is seriously ridiculous. The results are coincidental. Only the Brits take the capt's role so seriously. Brazil have had capts making their debuts. Just because Drogba sees terry with the armband on doesn't mean he'll play better. In fact Chelsea defended better without Terry in the CL final. They played better when he was off the field against Barca. Better with 10 men. The emperical evidence backs me up on this.

better than when? I would say Chelsea's best defensive performance was the first leg of the semi (you know the one they kept a clean sheet in). Terry played that one. We'll have to agree to disagree on the captaincy thing. It's easy to call things that don't suit your argument "coincidental".

Most of the reason for this was down to Cole, not Terry. Another utter so and so but at least he is a class player.
So many Clelsea fans think other fans dont rate Terry because he plays for Chelsea, but even though we all hate Cole we rate him.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

azania wrote:Sorry MFC, that is seriously ridiculous. The results are coincidental. Only the Brits take the capt's role so seriously. Brazil have had capts making their debuts. Just because Drogba sees terry with the armband on doesn't mean he'll play better. In fact Chelsea defended better without Terry in the CL final. They played better when he was off the field against Barca. Better with 10 men. The emperical evidence backs me up on this.

better than when? I would say Chelsea's best defensive performance was the first leg of the semi (you know the one they kept a clean sheet in). Terry played that one. We'll have to agree to disagree on the captaincy thing. It's easy to call things that don't suit your argument "coincidental".

Better that when he was on the pitch in the second leg. Playe dmore as a unit and scored more goals when he was off the pitch than when he was on. Lets not forget the main objective of football is to score goals.

The whole team was liften as soon as he was sdent off.

Anyway, my enduring image of Terry is him on all 4s with a laughing RvP scoring. Classic. The man is a liability. Get rid.

This is all getting a bit Terry vs Rio, which is stupid as they are not in direct competition for a spot in the team and have played together numerous times.

The issue for me is that Rio has proved his form and fitness but has been left out due to off pitch matters not of his own making - this is unfair.

Wether Terry should be selected is another issue entirely, imo he shouldn't be representing his country whilst this court case is hanging over his head - it is unfortunate that this would rule him out of the tournament but c'est la vie.

there is nothing unfortunate - because he isnt left out.

Do you honestly think someone on a pending trial should be left out a national team.. Look if we are going the court road on this- we have to look to the law

well in everyday life it's not unusual to see someone suspended "pending the result of the investigation", so as I said in an earlier post I could have understood Terry not being able to play for England while the court case was hanging over him. The problem with this half-measure is what do you do if Terry's proven innoncent? Do you make him captain again?

mystiroakey wrote:there is nothing unfortunate - because he isnt left out.

Do you honestly think someone on a pending trial should be left out a national team.. Look if we are going the court road on this- we have to look to the law

No we dont, the FA are not subject to the law. You look at the circumstances and make an intelligent decision. Under the current set of circumstances Terry should not be in the England squad IMO. These charges are not fantasies, the CPS believe them to be true and the FA must also take that into account. Again....England are all about kicking racism out of football. They should not be picking Terry until he is exonerated.

i dont think he should be in the england squad either and i think he did it. You have to understand the difference between a straight forward investigation and a court hearing .

the FA picked him because they can and they wanted to- blame the FA as much as you want- but what is the point in arguing that he shouldnt be picked due to a pending court hearing!!

mystiroakey wrote:i dont think he should be in the england squad either and i think he did it. You have to understand the difference between a straight forward investigation and a court hearing .

the FA picked him because they can and they wanted to- blame the FA as much as you want- but what is the point in arguing that he shouldnt be picked due to a pending court hearing!!

Sorry, I really dont understand your point. This is the statement from the CPS -
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_statements/cps_advises_john_terry_charge/
This statement is the reason I would not take Terry. It is clear reasonable evidence exists for a prosecution. Its prefectly clear to me under these circumstances he shoulnt be picked, innocent until proven guilty is utterly irrelevant to the FA, they arent subject to the Magna Carta or the Court of Human Rights.
They make the rules and they have made a massive mistake and set a shocking example by picking Terry over Ferdinand.

the FA didn't pick Terry over Ferdinand, they just made him available for selection (but not for captaincy which is ridiculous). I don't think there's a right and a wrong in this case, both decisions (making him available or not) were acceptable IMO.

basically if you going down the court route, it would be stupid to punish the person before he is proven guilty.

that defies all reasonable logic.

when people are suspended under furthar investigation in work scenarios, and are then found to be innocent they dont lose out on anything- they get paid and have just had a nice break!!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:the FA didn't pick Terry over Ferdinand, they just made him available for selection (but not for captaincy which is ridiculous). I don't think there's a right and a wrong in this case, both decisions (making him available or not) were acceptable IMO.

Could not disagree more.

Diggers you wouldnt pick him because he has a pending court case! I wouldnt pick him because he could (or has) caused a rift in the team.

The FA dont need excuses, they only need to make decsions, they can pick him and they have. Red tape and stuff is immaterial.

But banning him before a trial defies the point in the trial. that is my point. Any punishment he will face after would pail in comparison to missing the euros