The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Jedburgh

First topic message reminder :

Sláinte and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The Pub has made it's way to Jedburgh, home of Greig Laidlaw who kicked the winning points for Scotland on Tuesday night.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of all of the June Internationals debutants hanging over the bar.

Old pub: https://www.606v2.com/t30214p1000-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-pub-sixmilebridge#1286837

OK still here.... no opinion on Foley yet.... I'll leave him off the wasters list for now......

Stag

What should Ulster have done 14 odd months ago?

What were our options?

I'm not negative about him, just trying to counterbalance the Fitzpatrick is our saviour point of view. Bit of devil's advocate there alright but if you had sat me down last summer and said "Either Fitzpatrick is first choice or you sign an NIQ tighthead." there's not a hope I would have backed Fitzpatrick given his injury/fitness problems. Same question this summer? Probably the same answer.

Glas- CRISIS is what we do in Irish Rugby nowadays, not just Ulster

But no, Stag isn't putting the blame on Ulster. He's putting the blame on pretty much everyone including Munster/Leinster. He's making good points in a reasonable and objective manner.

There's a little bit too much of the IRFU thinking of total subservience to the national cause for me to stomach though, thats always the push-pull of that relationship though. But all provincial fans will feel there has to be a bit of give as well as take from the IRFU. I'm okay with the disruption the IRFU player management programme causes and the restrictions on signings. That's their take. Being able to get in top class players like Afoa to replace the influence of guys like Best and Ferris who will play less and less rugby for their province due to an over-congested international calendar is their give.

MrsP I feel that Fitzpatrick is good enough. Afoa joined about 7 months ago. I believe that Ulster just took an easy way out. Tim Ryan has just moved to Dragons what about him. Why did john andress not join.

Bottom line I think its wrong to have had Simon Bsst and then have a top class foreign tighhead for three years and then sign another top class foreign tighthead. I dont know how any fan could claim this is ok.

Sure I'm only after telling you we were in talks with John Andress and the talks fell through. Afoa was our back-up plan.

I just feel like your mind is made up on this; even if you don't agree, you can acknowledge the reasons why Ulster made that decision.

I know I just asked why andress.didnt join. Im trying to get all the facts

We had had Simon Best retire in a completely unforseeable set of circumstances. Macklin had spent pretty much the entire 10/11 season recovering from a very significant injury which could have ended his career. BJ is off and Andress falls through.

I'm not sure where all these alternative IQ THs are but what do we do if they don't want to come to Ulster?

We could have ended up with our best LH having to play TH with an injury prone DF as back up.

How would the national side have benefitted from that?

I don't know the details of why he didn't sign, I'm no geoff

So I can't give you facts on that. Only that he was pretty much signed, and then the deal broke down. I know he left Ulster on very bad terms in the first place and that there was a lot of bad blood on both sides. Genuinely don't know who was more at fault in that first breakdown in relations though, even if his attitude was poor off pitch.

One thing Ulster don't tolerate is guys with a poor attitude. There's been a lot of players forced out because even though they are good players they haven't lived up to standards of conduct off the pitch, some drink related incidents have cost players their Ulster contracts in the recent past. Kyriacou, for example, was moved on very quickly after his misadventures in Treviso this season. A social networking faux pas I heard about cost a player his contract.

So I think the Andress thing came out of not being able to repair the relationship that broke down when he was first forced out of Ulster for off pitch issues. Those aren't facts. Thats me putting the jigsaw together and no guarantee a few pieces aren't in the wrong place. Multiple sides to any story.

MrsP Simon Best retired in 2007. The 2012_13 season is upon us. It is a failure if no tighthead has been devloped in that time

Thats fair enough Notch. I just think that ulster have had five years to find an irish tighthead and could not do it

red_stag wrote:MrsP Simon Best retired in 2007. The 2012_13 season is upon us. It is a failure if no tighthead has been devloped in that time

Have to agree with that. Thats why I would be criticising our Academy structures as opposed to our transfer policy. I've no doubt if we had produced a good enough Irish tighthead to step in for BJ he would have. Which goes back to my point way back that it's a grass roots problem.

Either way, I'm delighted with the renewed emphasis UR are putting on our Academy and hope that can make sure stuff like this stops happening.

Cork won, poor performanc but you knw "just win,baby" and all that. Onwards and upwards. Stag, Dave Ryan and his brother Timmy have improved their technique tenfold since their experiences abroad. Their youngest brother might be involved in the Munster setup too.

Thats fair enough Notch. I just think that ulster have had five years to find an irish tighthead and could not do it

Again, sadly have to say I totally agree and hope our drive to improve the Academy can prevent a repetition of this. Our failure in the Academy development of front row forwards left us with a crisis, we had the choice of sacrificing our chances of making progress in Europe or signing an NIQ tighthead and then another one.

But we were developing a TH and then he suffered a pretty horrendous ankle fracture which put him out for a season.

My point is that you can not just magic up THs.

We all know they are rare as hen's teeth here in Ireland and we "lost" Simon Best in Feb 2008 and then Macklin could have been gone too in Oct 2010.

How does any province plan for those things?

Notch I agree its an acadmey issue. Its always been a failure to devlop rather thsn signing per say.

Stag is right. You want extra flankers not tight heads. It's not that they haven't been looking, it's that they were looking for the wrong things. Clohessy wouldn't get a central contract or a Provincial berth if he was starting off now.

red_stag wrote:Notch I agree its an acadmey issue. Its always been a failure to devlop rather thsn signing per say.

That is closer to my feelings on it. I still think Ulster had no viable option a year ago when we needed a TH and, it would seem, we couldn't get an IQ one.

Notch wrote:

red_stag wrote:On the Fergus McFadden thing I have never rated him. I remember getting a hounding from Mick over this who pointed out his performance in the Micky Mouse league.

He is nobody to get excited about. I really like Declan Fitzpatrick as a player. The IRFU should be giving him all the resources and support to shed weight and improve his conditioning.

I liked him as a 12. He's gotten no gametime there really. It's a waste.

+1.

McFadden is a great player. He just needs to play at 12 (for Leinster from here on in), in a team with some sort of organisation. Some sort of coordination, between defence and attack. Some sort of game plan would help also. At the minute, that Irish side has NONE of these in place. The Kiwis exposed that so easily yesterday. As have Wales in the past.

Even great players will be exposed in a setup like that. The Unit is a broken one, with players out of position. And with too many workmanlike players to fill the gaps. I believe that the players themselves know this too. They wont say it. Maybe BOD should. We are going backwards at the rate of knots.

Roll on 2013.
http://www.kidneyclock.net/

P.S. That even if all that was in place, NZ would still have had us yesterday. No one could have lived with them. No one. But, it woudnt have looked so much like Men v Boys, if we had the right players, in the right positions and with a better understanding engendered from the Top. Its so obvious.

Apparently it's Spain v Italy at 17:00 (Is that right ???) I'm watching ETV and keep thinking France v England is about to kick off

red_stag wrote:Provinces are massively to blame:

1 - Munster basically relied too long upon Horan and Hayes. The likes of Tim Ryan and even Tony Buckley were never properly developed.

2 - Ulster had BJ Botha for three years and replaced him with John Afoa. Unforgiveable that his was allowed.

3 - From 2006-2011 I genuinely think that Cian Healy was the only Irish prop of note at Leinster. The rest were all foreign blokes.

Now its upto the IRFU to monitor this but even still.

I think that instead of this dopey project player system to find props (Ah You, Borlase, White) they should be looking at:

- Giving extra assistance to guys like Declan Fitzpatrick in his fitness or Darragh Hurley in his injury rehabilitation.

- Getting young props abroad for a few years where they will get regular gametime.

- Making sure they monitor these guys they send abroad and ensuring they are well supported.

For example a guy like Tim Ryan has been playing in France, Italy, Wales, England and Ireland and has played the All Blacks and was playing in the Amlin Final less than two years ago.

We should be getting him back to one of the provinces in the next year and using the experience he has gained abroad.

Thats a hell of a lot better of a project.

Excellent post.

Thats right Penfro. Having a few over tonight for thr matches.

I would say that a lot of what went wrong yesterday was down to individual errors, Kidney ships some blame for our backline lackign cohesion, but the first try was down to McF and Earls not talking, in my opinion, McF should have drifted to the outside man and let Earls take the man running inside but they ended up going for the same guy. There are some positives from this game, it's not all bad. During the first 20 minutes, Sexton kicked intelligently, to the corners, and moved the back three around, why did we change that? I think we would have lost regardless of who we had in charge, Kidney deserves quite a bit of flak but not all of it.

Here's whaty top scientists believe Aidan McGeady will be doing for Ireland tonight:

Spoiler:

red_stag wrote:Thats right Penfro. Having a few over tonight for thr matches.

Oh I knew it was Italy v Spain but you'd never have guessed it if you watch ETV

I will be watching (and cheering) the 'Republic' tonight (and putting up with more France v England analysis )

Adrian Chiles is a sarcastic Kumquat

Great to see a few Oirish characters being " interviewed" in Poznan

T,
I'm not blaming it all on Kidney either, but we need someone stronger as Head-Coach, to give the IRFU Hell for us being in this position, after 3 years of backward development. They havent helped Deccie at all. No Attack Coach. And the guy they give a double-job to, his prime job has suffered in the process. Thats obvious too. Our defence was so much better than this(remember?), when that was all he had to concentrate on.

This is not Amateur Avond. This is a joke at International level.

So yeah, Its not all Deccie fault. Its the IRFU's.

No one is having a go at them. We should be.

I think a lot of Ulster fans are having a go at them!

Everyone's going Euro mad, a few of us are watching it here. I'm a very bad person to watch a match with though. Would have gone to see the game in a giant tent with a round 2/3000 people but didn't want to pay €15 for it. #COYBIG #TrapsArmy #youllneverbeattheirish. Think it will be a draw


I agree with you Gibbo. I don't think any of us know who is at fault for Kiss doing a double job, but he is doing them half assed, and I don't blame him. I think the IRFU are as culpable here as Deccie

PenfroPete wrote:

red_stag wrote:Thats right Penfro. Having a few over tonight for thr matches.

Oh I knew it was Italy v Spain but you'd never have guessed it if you watch ETV

I will be watching (and cheering) the 'Republic' tonight (and putting up with more France v England analysis )

Adrian Chiles is a sarcastic Kumquat

Great to see a few Oirish characters being " interviewed" in Poznan

Not smart enough to be sarcastic... no need for adjectives in his case.

Come On Ireland!

Believe.

Thomond wrote:Here's whaty top scientists believe Aidan McGeady will be doing for Ireland tonight:

Spoiler:

He's not a bad player. Probably the only footballer we have. But, your'e right, he takes far too much out of the ball, when he should do what is most effective for his team. Cross de bleedin ball Aidan!

He is a very poor player. A winger who can't cross, he would thrive in a more central attacking role (if Ireland did that Wes Hoolahan or maybe Fahey would be better). I have never rated him, he usually runs himself into blind alleys. Duff is a far better player as is McClean. Rember that basterd McClean since he scored a wonder goal at the cross a few years back.

I'm expecting a big game from Doyler, he is very good at what he does, holding up the ball and bringing others into play, we gvie Robbie the chances but Super Kev isn't a bad finisher. Expect Robbie to d a lot of pointing today, it's a big game. Also going to shamefully plug this again: http://v2journal.com/ireland-v-croatia-preview.html

Thomond wrote:He is a very poor player. A winger who can't cross, he would thrive in a more central attacking role (if Ireland did that Wes Hoolahan or maybe Fahey would be better). I have never rated him, he usually runs himself into blind alleys. Duff is a far better player as is McClean. Rember that basterd McClean since he scored a wonder goal at the cross a few years back.

I'm expecting a big game from Doyler, he is very good at what he does, holding up the ball and bringing others into play, we gvie Robbie the chances but Super Kev isn't a bad finisher. Expect Robbie to d a lot of pointing today, it's a big game. Also going to shamefully plug this again: http://v2journal.com/ireland-v-croatia-preview.html

Yes, he should be moved into midfield. Hes lost on the wing. Anyway, you are our resident Footbaal Expert.

What do ya reckon here T? I fancy Italia.

I'm a bit surprised Spain haven't gone for a traditional striker. They have guys like Silva and Iniesta who operate a bit like wing forwards but I think they might struggle here. Hoping they win as they might underestimate Ireland. Italy don't have great strikers, I expect Balotelli to grab one. 1-1.

T have I asked you this already duff or McLean?

The prop question is interesting. I was watching a lot of schools rugby back in 06/07/08 back when I was at school. The only player I saw of any quality who's made it through the accademy and into the ulster side is Mcallister. I'd love to see the stats but I think we have a lot more flash in the pan backs players in our accademy(ies?) than hard grafting forwards and perhaps even more a disproportionate lack of props coming through the ranks.

I said both and drop McGeady I think Willser.

Thomond wrote:I'm a bit surprised Spain haven't gone for a traditional striker. They have guys like Silva and Iniesta who operate a bit like wing forwards but I think they might struggle here. Hoping they win as they might underestimate Ireland. Italy don't have great strikers, I expect Balotelli to grab one. 1-1.

I agree. 6 midfielders? Spain playing for the draw.

Glas a du wrote:Stag is right. You want extra flankers not tight heads. It's not that they haven't been looking, it's that they were looking for the wrong things. Clohessy wouldn't get a central contract or a Provincial berth if he was starting off now.

I totally agree with that (I said something similar earlier). Unfortunately we are only getting to the point where we realise we need props to hold up the scrum when other nations are getting to the point of developing some props who can hold up the scrum and play like an extra flanker. I would have no worries about the scrummaging of a front row that contained Gethin Jenkins, John Afoa, The Beast Mtawarira,etc. They are very much the exception as opposed to the rule but there are a good few props now who are powerhouses in the loose and the scrum. We have a few prototype looseheads in this role at least- Healy and McAllister are young props who carry strongly and scrummage well. I think the way we emphasise developing props throughout the system has led to a lot of good looseheads and very few half-decent tightheads for some reason.

I'd say Italy win the award for striking partnership with the least brain cells. There's Balotelli (Numerous parking tickets, lit fireworks in his bathroom) and Cassano (claims to have slept with around 100 women, has had heart surgery, has stated he can't wait to retire and get "fat")

Spoiler:

Well, in terms of how dislikable a team is, that puts Italy up there with England and John "White Mans Burden" Terry.

Love the picture

'Mon Ireland.

Just back from a run,man it was hot...feel happy but destroyed .... what have I missed, have we sorted out Irish rugby yet?.......

Hells bells yer man Djockovic is a machine....thank feic the Serbs don't take rugby seriously....

What time is the Ireland soccerball game on?

7:45 on RTE2 and ITV

Nice one thomond

I hate that. I go to feed the sheep just before half time and try to time it so I'm back by the end of half time. Now I've missed the end of the first half, haven't managed to miss the punditry and I'm wondering whether I've paid enough attention on my rounds.

Thomond wrote:7:45 on RTE2 and I ETV

Fixed

What a game!

Torres

Oh dear, Torres has his 'Killer Instinct' switch set to OFF today.

He was unlucky with that chip but he's had a good few chances to kill it off.

Notch wrote:Oh dear, Torres has his 'Killer Instinct' switch set to OFF today.

He was unlucky with that chip but he's had a good few chances to kill it off.

A shadow of the player Liverpool signed. So ................................................. 90+2 Torres wins it for Spain

I bet! After all our 'expert punditry' it's written in the stars now isn't it

Thing is, if that did happen, I could see his confidence blossoming and him getting some of his best form back.

Fair result

Great game. High level. Loved it.

Now, for a not so high-level game. But with oodles of passion and commitment. And 20,000 singing fans in Poznan.

BELIEVE!