Do Welsh Regions really need to bring in Foreigners?

During the season Scott Johnson mentioned that while the Ospreys made a conscious effort to bring through youngsters but that Wales should always look to bring in quality imports when available. Its been resinating with me ever since. Now before we get started there is now doubt Foreign imports have served Welsh Rugby well but I cant help but feel this was partly down to the fact we embrassed proffesionalism a lot slower than most Unions. The Regan Kings and Xaviers did a lot to develop current crops of players, but now the senior players in Wales should be taking up those mantles. Regional Rugby has despite its flaws increased its playing standards due to the condensed competition to earn a starting days. It wasnt that long ago that Irish Provinces where hammering out old club system in the old league format. So clearly change has happened.

I do think Scott had a vested interested in what he was saying. Players representing their SH sides tend to come north at the end of their days to earn mega paypackets. Now imagine this wasnt the case and NH didnt sign overseas players. Given NH club sides pay more and Internationals also are paid more than their SH rivals would this lead to a defecting of players looking for bigger payments even if this meant changing allegiances at an early age. This to a degree already happens in places like Samoa, Tonga & Fiji with players heading to Australia & New Zealand to secure their playing futures. Maybe I am being cynical but what do you think?

Anyway I cant help but looking at the current crop of players we have at the Regions and wonder if these are worth it. A lot of uncapped players have been signed by the Blues probably with the argument that they will be qualified for Wales in 3 Years. They are:-

Bourrust (Tighthead Prop - French) - I cant help but feel this is a awful signing no matter on the outcome because even if he turns out to be excellent, given France have serious Prop issues moving forward, I would imagine they will cap him. Thus he would be unavailable for the Blues and if France do select him regularly, he wont be seen in a Blues shirt often. This would be similar to Bowe (who no doubt was great for the Ospreys in his time there) had a negative effect on availability. If he turns out to be rubbish its a spot that a Welsh youngster like Will John could have taken to aid his development into Pro rugby.

Copeland is the same story as well. He was voted into the Championship side for the season with his performance. At Blindside Ireland are blessed but I wouldnt rule out Ireland coming in to cap him in a friendly to tie them to them.

For me Filise and Rush are to old at this stage. I cant believe they resigned Filise. Given they already have Andrews, John & Bourrust in there it clearly the Filise extension seems a bit silly as I am sure he wont be cheap and has started to become injury prone. Rush is also getting caught by father time.

Kyriacou (Hooker) seems another signing I cant understand. Given there are a fair few Welsh Hookers around I would have thought an Emyr Phillips type of signing would have made more sense.

Paterson & Pretorius are both possible Wales options when they qualify eventually.

Ma'afu has been signed at Loosehead for them and apparently cant scrum. Given Looseheads are probably the one area we shoudlnt have to worry (as we always seem to produce quality ones) I see this as such a negative move by the Blues.

Its almost as if they have assembled a squad around making sure players are not selected for Wales which is a rather negative attidude.

No I don't think you need to be bringing in foreigners.

Look at Quins and Leinster - both won the AP and HC respectively with mostly home grown players.

Sprinkling your squad with a few quality foreigners like Nacewa for Leinster and Evans for Quins is fine but too many foreigners leads to less opportunities for youngsters.

There is a need to have NWQ players in the regions.

There are certain positions that some regions are particularly weak. Take the Scarlets as an example (as I am more in the know about them than the others), they have a weak front five. If we can bring in a few NWQ locks/props to tide us over we can have enough time to properly develope the younger players coming through (the U20s front row is all Scarlet). However if the NWQs are not there, then we will struggle as we will be throwing youngsters in at the deep end in a position that people tend to take a bit longer to mature into.

Also looking at the example of Kyriacou joining the Blues instead of Emyr Phillips, I think the regions who are bringing through certain players are not particularly keen on seeing them leave. At the moment the Scarlets arguably have the first and second choice hookers for Wales, so if Phillips had gone to the Blues the Scarlets would have been left very thread bare during the 6Ns/AIs with Owens, Rees, and Myhill off on international duties. Emyr is pretty much essencial to the Scarlets momentum during those periods.

For starters, Bourrust hasn't been signed yet. (although interestingly he is on the Director of Rugby games team for the Blues next season) - as for him being capped by France . Will Griff John is not ready yet, Andrews is an awful scrummager. Having a strong scrum is vital to achieving anything.

Kyriacou was only signed because we couldn't get Rees and have lost TR Thomas, Gareth Williams and Rhys Williams just his year!

Filise and Rush will both be played a squad role (especially if Bourrust signs), Pretorious will be the first choice 8.

Ma'afu Campese was signed because otherwise we would have 1 LHP, Hobbs! Campese is an international THP, he can scrummage.


Also, im fairly sure Halfpenny learnt a lot off Blair, Davies from Tito, Pretorious and Hamilton from Rush, Allen from Laulaula. Experienced NWQ bring a lot to a teams development.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Its almost as if they have assembled a squad around making sure players are not selected for Wales.............

Naughty Cardiff Blues.
I haven't counted, but how do the others compare with the number of NWQs?

Is Andy Kyriacou going to be first choice hooker for Cardiff?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Its almost as if they have assembled a squad around making sure players are not selected for Wales.............

Naughty Cardiff Blues.
I haven't counted, but how do the others compare with the number of NWQs?

Yeah, Blues players are never selected for Wales

Gethin Jenkins, Bradley Davies, Sam Warburton, Lloyd Williams, Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert...

beshocked wrote:Is Andy Kyriacou going to be first choice hooker for Cardiff?

The other options are Breeze, and average premiership recruit. Or Dacey, a very promising youngster. He might be first choice next season, but I would expect Dacey to overtake him fairly soon - especially under Davies, who likes playing youngsters.

From an outsiders point of view I don't see how you have replaced Gethin Jenkins. Very difficult to obviously.

If I were Cardiff management I would sign a top class foreign fly half (not Parks who I know has now left) to get the likes of Cuthbert,Roberts,Halfpenny playing some free flowing stuff.

A top class foreign hooker - harsh as it is I don't see Andy Kyriacou as anything but average. Good squad player but if you aspiration for trophies you need real star quality.

Class foreign 2nd row to partner bradley Davies.

beshocked wrote:From an outsiders point of view I don't see how you have replaced Gethin Jenkins. Very difficult to obviously.

If I were Cardiff management I would sign a top class foreign fly half (not Parks who I know has now left) to get the likes of Cuthbert,Roberts,Halfpenny playing some free flowing stuff.

A top class foreign hooker - harsh as it is I don't see Andy Kyriacou as anything but average. Good squad player but if you aspiration for trophies you need real star quality.

Class foreign 2nd row to partner bradley Davies.

We have signed Jason Tovey to replace Parks, and Welsh international Lou Reed to partner BD. We tried to get Huw Bennett and Matthew Rees, but failed, so had to settle for Kyriacau to have cover.

There are two reasons to sign NWQ players - 1. If they are much better than the current WQ players - or if the WQ players are still developing at a young age (see Blues at Hooker, Scarlets at TH) and would benefit from learning from a senior pro and being eased into Top flight rugby.
2. The other reason is equally important and it's to cover for Welsh internationals during Wales games/training - squad depth is essential and there's only so many young Welsh players you can bring through to cover for other Welsh players, before they too will be picked up by Wales and you have no more cover in the squad. Players like Ionghi & Bearman I'd say fall into this catergory.

The other aspect is beshocked mentioned in his 1st post - no matter how good the team (like Leinster & Quins) and how good the homegrown talent in that team, they can always benefit from a sprinkling of great foreign players who'll be available all season.

CD - I know the Scarlets have 6 NWQ players (well 5 now Gilberts leaving) and could well sign two more this summer.

The reason we have so many is either in the front 5 where our WQ players were either too young (Samson Lee, Evans, R Jones, Gardiner) or not good enough to give us a good enough platform (Welch, Reed, Day) - and the other NWQ players are used to cover Welsh int call ups (Ionghi)

Not sure about the other regions

wales606 wrote:For starters, Bourrust hasn't been signed yet. (although interestingly he is on the Director of Rugby games team for the Blues next season) - as for him being capped by France . Will Griff John is not ready yet, Andrews is an awful scrummager. Having a strong scrum is vital to achieving anything.

Kyriacou was only signed because we couldn't get Rees and have lost TR Thomas, Gareth Williams and Rhys Williams just his year!

Filise and Rush will both be played a squad role (especially if Bourrust signs), Pretorious will be the first choice 8.

Ma'afu Campese was signed because otherwise we would have 1 LHP, Hobbs! Campese is an international THP, he can scrummage.


Also, im fairly sure Halfpenny learnt a lot off Blair, Davies from Tito, Pretorious and Hamilton from Rush, Allen from Laulaula. Experienced NWQ bring a lot to a teams development.

Bourrust has signed. Check the Rabbo website and Blues Website annoucements.

Campese is a Loosehead and I maintain he cant scrummage. Like Filise he will no doubt bring a carrying option but neither of those where destructive at set piece.

I'm not doubting the need previously to have them as we did used to have inferiority complexes against SH teams. Signings like Holah, Collins and Marshall helped not only to develop the players but also to realize the gap isnt as big as they think it is in terms of skills etc.

wales606 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Is Andy Kyriacou going to be first choice hooker for Cardiff?

The other options are Breeze, and average premiership recruit. Or Dacey, a very promising youngster. He might be first choice next season, but I would expect Dacey to overtake him fairly soon - especially under Davies, who likes playing youngsters.

thats fairly harsh on Breeze. I actually think he did really well for them in the games he got a chance in.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is a need to have NWQ players in the regions.

There are certain positions that some regions are particularly weak. Take the Scarlets as an example (as I am more in the know about them than the others), they have a weak front five. If we can bring in a few NWQ locks/props to tide us over we can have enough time to properly develope the younger players coming through (the U20s front row is all Scarlet). However if the NWQs are not there, then we will struggle as we will be throwing youngsters in at the deep end in a position that people tend to take a bit longer to mature into.

Also looking at the example of Kyriacou joining the Blues instead of Emyr Phillips, I think the regions who are bringing through certain players are not particularly keen on seeing them leave. At the moment the Scarlets arguably have the first and second choice hookers for Wales, so if Phillips had gone to the Blues the Scarlets would have been left very thread bare during the 6Ns/AIs with Owens, Rees, and Myhill off on international duties. Emyr is pretty much essencial to the Scarlets momentum during those periods.

I know what you are saying from a Scarlets point of view. That said with the salary cap can any side really afford to keep hold of 4 quality Hookers if other regions show interest? I aggree Phillips would be essential for the Scarlets but then the issue should be can they really retain Rees and Owens who both will be absent.

Scarlets suffer badly as well as their backline is decimated whenever Wales play. I aggree with your point regarding the Tight 5 in particular but unless you bring in the best foreign options you wont compete either way. Surely the whole point should be to sign the Carters, Haymans of the world and if you cant develop your own, as clearly sub standard signing usually do more damage than good.

I think the thing people need to keep in mind is that having the best possible signings who are available during international periods may give you the best chance to qualify for HC Qtrs and League semi finals but they wont help you win them when international outfits return. Leinster are a good example of this as with their money they assembled a squad good enough to cover when internationals are away but essentially its the international contigent who contribute most to winning them thropies. Harlequins are an exception in this regard but they have shown that youth can shine through.

At any rate all im saying is that some sides clearly dont aim to win tournaments as much as its become about qualifing for the shoot outs due to the commercial value of being involved in the knockout part of the competiton.

I guess it all boils down to ambition. But there is no denying that youth will develop faster if it gets exposed to bigger matches. That in turn benefits our Welsh age grade teams as well and to be brutally honest has a better chance of people associating themselves with their regions. The easiest way of closing the gap with disheartened club fans in wales is to start playing some of their talent at the regional level. We have already seen that even superstar overseas signings dont make a massive difference to crowd attendances because of the lack of interest from local club supporters. If they really want to promote regional rugby they need to start producing players from the communties and giving them exposure faster. If you good enough your old enough as the saying goes.....

wales606 wrote:

beshocked wrote:From an outsiders point of view I don't see how you have replaced Gethin Jenkins. Very difficult to obviously.

If I were Cardiff management I would sign a top class foreign fly half (not Parks who I know has now left) to get the likes of Cuthbert,Roberts,Halfpenny playing some free flowing stuff.

A top class foreign hooker - harsh as it is I don't see Andy Kyriacou as anything but average. Good squad player but if you aspiration for trophies you need real star quality.

Class foreign 2nd row to partner bradley Davies.

We have signed Jason Tovey to replace Parks, and Welsh international Lou Reed to partner BD. We tried to get Huw Bennett and Matthew Rees, but failed, so had to settle for Kyriacau to have cover.

Both Bennett and Rees apparently are still available, Bennett has a clause in his contract to allow him to call off the transfer if Lyon get relegated, they have been. Also the Scarlets are apparently open to offers for Rees as they need to reduce their salary bill to get under the cap. I assume that all the Blues have to do is write a cheque!

Surprised I've read this far and nobody has picked out some of the cross the Dragons have signed. I do think that a lot of the time, coaches bring in overseas experience hoping to bring on the youngsters and this is not a bad thing. I honestly don't think the regions having a few overseas players hurts too much, but you want them to be of a decent standard. At the Dragons, I can't see what Joe Bedford brings. If Johnny Evans is fit, then we should go with him. If not, I'd sooner see a Gwent perm player brought in. The same goes with the likes of Tuilagi. We haven't missed Ben Castle (hopeless) and Tom Willis. Steve Jones is twice the player.
I haven't been surprised at all with how the Ospreys have come on. A home grown coach, who knows and understands the region and young, hungry Welsh players to go with some top Welsh internationals. The Scarlets have had some excellent NWQ, but also some mediocre players, but the young talent that keeps coming through soon replaces them. Im glad to see the likes of Molitika and Parks leave the Blues. The Blues would regularly start with 5 or 6 overseas players and they were all pretty much over 30. I can't help but think that the amount given to Rush on wages could have been put to veered use. He's been quality, but long past it.
I genuinely think that the Welsh management must be rubbing their hands. Several top players will be playing in the Top 14 and Avica next year. This means that more youngsters will be exposed to top level rugby eh the half backs at all 4 regions should be all young, quality welsh players. I don't think the regions will compete in Europe, but for the national side it just gives us more and more depth.

Welshmushroom wrote: Leinster are a good example of this as with their money they assembled a squad good enough to cover when internationals are away but essentially its the international contigent who contribute most to winning them thropies.

Keep in mind that Leinster also have the advantage of 40%, 10 year tax breaks for Irish players.
How many Irish international players are there doing their thing in countries other than Ireland?
Imagine if we had that arrangement here in Wales?

Yes Wales do, because we simply don't develop enough quality forwards.

Im not sure moving to the top 14 is as clever as people think. Sure if you are a tight 5 forward you will be tested but the way their league is going its totally based on attrition and fatigue. In France a national player could well turn out for 40 matches for both club and country. Thats just insane and wont aid top players developing at all. Chabal was totally frank with his assesment about the top 14. Not enough preparation work and sure some players just like playing games week in week out but when your trying to match the best teams in the world without reducing matches we stand no chance. Basically PSA said as much about the issues he is having with trying to prepare France for internationals.

I do think players leaving has to be put in context. Realistically someone like Jenkins for example wont be around for the next World Cup so him leaving, while still being an option for Wales, wont offer the long term solution. What is clear though is we cant have scenarios like Gill who leave because they cant get gametime in Wales. He's clearly the man to take on the role of Jenkins but now that Saracens have shown him loyalty its no suprise he isnt rushing back to Wales.

We are already seeing promising players leave and I would rather that be some of our veterans because it could get us into trouble in terms eligibilty as other Nations will surely look to poach players who become eligible. The answer shouldnt be to force Gatland to cap them early but instead to have oppertunities at home, where the players get the best network or support and conditioning they could hope for.

As a Dragons fan im with you on your comments manofgwent. All the guys listed above have been totally crap signings. Im glad we finally got Tom and Daniel Evans because they will defnitely be good signings for us. Chav is probably the only good foreign signing we have made. I'm just glad Edwards has seen some common sense and kept Robling/Jones at the 10 helm. Reality is we wont win any major honours just yet but our ambition should be to build a team for future years and keeping them together for a long period. Leinster,Wasps, Leicester, Tolouse etc all had players who played many years together before they could put their hands on the throphy. Having a playing roster change dramatically every 2 seasons wont help you win the HC. I think thats actually part of the reason French and English sides are struggeling to do well there because they are having monumental issues in keeping their stars together for longer periods.

Harlequins for example could very well end up winning the HC in a couple of seasons but I somehow doubt they will be able to retain their roster once the Franch Clubs come sniffing. It was the same with Northampton who are seeing key departures after a great return to the HC. Its what sets Leinster apart at the moment. They manage to retain everyone they want at the moment.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:CD - I know the Scarlets have 6 NWQ players

Doesn't bother me how many NWQs there are amongst the 4 as long as there is a balance overall.
What's more important than arbitrary quotas of NWQs is cooperation between the 4 and the WRU to achieve a common goal; the success of Welsh rugby.

Davr. I've never known such an exciting time for Welsh rugby. We've just won a third grand slam in seven years. The under 20's have just beaten New Zealand and Wales have so many talented youngsters. With more youngsters getting game time at the regions, it's a win winnsituation for the national team. It's just a shame that the regions can't compete with europes big spenders. The regional game is suffering big time. How many games did Roberts or Warburton play. The same with Lydiate and Faletau at the Dragons. We now find out that Lydiate will be having an op after the summer tests and will miss the start of the season. No doubt he'll be back in time for the AI's!!! Is regional rugby going the way of county cricket?

Maybe we should put more effort in looking for players in every corner of Wales before we start looking further afield

manofgwent wrote:Davr. I've never known such an exciting time for Welsh rugby. We've just won a third grand slam in seven years. The under 20's have just beaten New Zealand and Wales have so many talented youngsters. With more youngsters getting game time at the regions, it's a win winnsituation for the national team. It's just a shame that the regions can't compete with europes big spenders. The regional game is suffering big time. How many games did Roberts or Warburton play. The same with Lydiate and Faletau at the Dragons. We now find out that Lydiate will be having an op after the summer tests and will miss the start of the season. No doubt he'll be back in time for the AI's!!! Is regional rugby going the way of county cricket?

Let Tony Brown take control, come down to the Arms Park and give us a good seeing too. That'll sort it.

Cymroglan wrote:Maybe we should put more effort in looking for players in every corner of Wales before we start looking further afield

The All Blacks aren't that fussy. They look further afield all the time.

Seagultaf wrote:

wales606 wrote:

beshocked wrote:From an outsiders point of view I don't see how you have replaced Gethin Jenkins. Very difficult to obviously.

If I were Cardiff management I would sign a top class foreign fly half (not Parks who I know has now left) to get the likes of Cuthbert,Roberts,Halfpenny playing some free flowing stuff.

A top class foreign hooker - harsh as it is I don't see Andy Kyriacou as anything but average. Good squad player but if you aspiration for trophies you need real star quality.

Class foreign 2nd row to partner bradley Davies.

We have signed Jason Tovey to replace Parks, and Welsh international Lou Reed to partner BD. We tried to get Huw Bennett and Matthew Rees, but failed, so had to settle for Kyriacau to have cover.

Both Bennett and Rees apparently are still available, Bennett has a clause in his contract to allow him to call off the transfer if Lyon get relegated, they have been. Also the Scarlets are apparently open to offers for Rees as they need to reduce their salary bill to get under the cap. I assume that all the Blues have to do is write a cheque!

Rees has stated he is staying with the Scarlets, Bennett has stated he is going to Lyon anyway

Welshmushroom wrote:

wales606 wrote:For starters, Bourrust hasn't been signed yet. (although interestingly he is on the Director of Rugby games team for the Blues next season) - as for him being capped by France . Will Griff John is not ready yet, Andrews is an awful scrummager. Having a strong scrum is vital to achieving anything.

Kyriacou was only signed because we couldn't get Rees and have lost TR Thomas, Gareth Williams and Rhys Williams just his year!

Filise and Rush will both be played a squad role (especially if Bourrust signs), Pretorious will be the first choice 8.

Ma'afu Campese was signed because otherwise we would have 1 LHP, Hobbs! Campese is an international THP, he can scrummage.


Also, im fairly sure Halfpenny learnt a lot off Blair, Davies from Tito, Pretorious and Hamilton from Rush, Allen from Laulaula. Experienced NWQ bring a lot to a teams development.

Bourrust has signed. Check the Rabbo website and Blues Website annoucements.

Campese is a Loosehead and I maintain he cant scrummage. Like Filise he will no doubt bring a carrying option but neither of those where destructive at set piece.

I'm not doubting the need previously to have them as we did used to have inferiority complexes against SH teams. Signings like Holah, Collins and Marshall helped not only to develop the players but also to realize the gap isnt as big as they think it is in terms of skills etc.

Yes, I posted it straight after it was announced on the Blues club page. When I posted that though, it wasn't confirmed

Of course they need NWQ players. The depth is not there and there is a premium on Welsh players due to the limit on NWQ so keeping hold of a NWQ player may well be cheaper than keeping hold of a decent Welsh equivalent, especially once the Team Wales commitments are thrown in.

Stone Motif wrote:Of course they need NWQ players. The depth is not there and there is a premium on Welsh players due to the limit on NWQ so keeping hold of a NWQ player may well be cheaper than keeping hold of a decent Welsh equivalent, especially once the Team Wales commitments are thrown in.

Been mentioned a million times before on numerous forums, but some team Wales fans still don't get it.
It would be catastrophic if only Welsh players were permitted to play in Wales and it wouldn't stop talented younger players leaving either unless of course we had what Ireland have.