The Leinster back row.

First topic message reminder :

So, after watching the JWC again today, there are a few standout guys for Ireland who look like they have potential. Particularly in the back row, which is made up entirely of Leinster players:

6) Coughlan
7) Gilsenan
8) Conan

Conan and Gilsenan in particular have been very good, and Coughlan also looks very powerful. They all show potential, but then you just look at the competition ahead of them for Leinster, never mind looking at international prospects for the future. Leinster have the following guys in their back row, who have all started for Leinster this season at some point:

O'Brien
Heaslip
McLaughlin
Jennings
Ryan
Ruddock
Auva'a
Murphy

That is a crazy amount of depth and talent there. As Stand and a few other guys have pointed out in the game thread, Ulster/Munster are starting to look bare in those areas, so it would be wise for the IRFU to start sending these guys elsewhere for more game time. As an Ulster/Munster/Connacht fan, who would you most like to see sign for your province? Realistically. And for the Leinster fans (or anyone else) who are you most excited about? Who would you not mind leaving for another province? Who would you like to hold onto?

To me, looking at that group of highly talented players, the likes of Ruddock, Auva'a, McLaughlin, Jennings and Murphy will never see past provincial honours. I am personally most excited about Ryan out of that group, and hope he gets game time this year.

Well they won't let Heaslip or OBrien go either. Those 3 aside I wouldnt take any others.

Ryan would be a massive boost to your back row, no?

Not especially.

Tall, athletic flanker with tons of pace, brilliant support player. Good ball carrier, quick to the breakdown, huge tackler. Wouldn't that be a boost to any of the provinces? I seriously can't wait to see him progress next season, could be the next big name.

He's could be a big name in the future but I dont think he's all that much better than Tommy O'Donnell or David O'Callaghan. If Munster bring in a backrow he needs to be good enough for our starting team.

O'Donnell is another guy I want to see develop. Will be interesting to see if Ronan starts over him next season.

Heaslip has living off reputation at the moment. Hes been complacent all season which doesnt make sense seeing that the back row is an area of strength and depth in Ireland. Hes also on a big money at Leinster so he could be time to move him on if he doesnt pick it up. He should definately be dropped for the odd game to let him know his place is not a given.

Gordy wrote:Heaslip has living off reputation at the moment. Hes been complacent all season which doesnt make sense seeing that the back row is an area of strength and depth in Ireland. Hes also on a big money at Leinster so he could be time to move him on if he doesnt pick it up. He should definately be dropped for the odd game to let him know his place is not a given.

For Ireland yes,for Leinster no

I think he should be dropped for Leinster honestly. McLaughlin, Jennings and O'Brien would probably be a much better back row. With Ryan coming in and replacing Jennings eventually. I just don't see Heaslip hitting the heights he used to. A bit like Leamy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think he should be dropped for Leinster honestly. McLaughlin, Jennings and O'Brien would probably be a much better back row. With Ryan coming in and replacing Jennings eventually. I just don't see Heaslip hitting the heights he used to. A bit like Leamy.

That lineup weakens our lineout too much,maybe Ryan could make up for that but he needs to breakthrough first.

Id like to see heaslip dropped too and to see auva'a get more gametime

Well I hope Ryan gets significant game time next year for Leinster. Our future irish back row needs him.

6) O'Mahony
7) Ryan
8) O'Brien

I think this thread perhaps shows that for all Leinster's success there are storm clouds off there in the distance. The challenge for Schimdt and his successor, whenever that might be, is to manage the resources well for not just this vintage, but the next side. The only problem with the provincial system and international selection is that players with an eye on a green shirt won't go to England or elsewhere, and we see almost too much strength in depth with this Leinster squad and players progression are retarded. They might be strong in the short term, but in the longer term will young players like Ryan and Ruddock really get enough exposure to big matches? What about the generation just behind them. Surely it also limits potential at international level when there might not be enough competition for places. Do the IRFU need to do more to ensure that for the sake of the national side that players in stacked positions at a province are persuaded to go to another side not only for their benefit, but for the Irish side?

Just using this as a hypothetical example here a the realities means this will not happen. Munster badly need an experience back row players, so instead of bringing in an experienced but average NIQ would they not benefit from someone like Kevin McLaughlin going there? For McLaughlin he could almost be guaranteed of playing every week, making it more likely he would get into the Irish side. Obviously this will not be happening for various reason, but purely as a hypothetical isn't this perhaps the sort of thing the IRFU should be doing, or is it a case of too much micromanaging?

I am not saying these as facts, but asking the questions to see what people think. I just think back to Kidney's great Munster side not bringing in enough young talent and having a large chunk of the side in terminal decline at the same time.

I said already that is what I believe will be pushed by the IRFU. Share the wealth amongst the other provinces. That will be the IRFU party-line.

Also, who says keeping players safe and sound in Ireland, is actually working at national level? Its not. It is at European HC level for sure. And the French will also be looking in to pick them off. As will the English.

I can see some of these players going abroad. And who could blame them? It may improve them. It normally does. In every way.

Leinster could become like AJAX, breeding players & feeding the European game. Shame there are no transfer fees.

The surplus players should be loaned out to Connaught, who are the lame ducks in Ireland, or Ulster who are dependant on foereign imports.

The Celtic League is perfectly suited for that. Players can get gametime there and HC experience automatically with no fear of relegation. It might help Connaught improve also.

It would be great if we didn't have another thread ruined by your inane and incorrect assertions and I won't bother pointing out all the flaws once again in your statements. This has been shown to you to be wrong time and time again and yet you continue to post drivel in threads.

I would advise people not to engage with this obvious trolling.

?

Good man Gordy. Spot on... But I think the football threads are asking for your advice on Ferdinand's omission man.

Gordy ruins yet another debate

Connacht will benefit most from any over supply of players. The young players will see the queue ahead of them and perfer to go to Connacht where they've a better chance of making it. They know the younger players better than foreign teams.

Its happened already with Mick Kearney going there.

I think the likes of Jennings, going to lead Connacht in the HC, would be fantastic. For him and them. For us all.

He has fantastic experience (4 X HC Finals) and could help bring on the locals.

Spread the rugby love and experience.

Gibson when would you like to see jenno leave? He is still playing really well for us...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Gibson when would you like to see jenno leave? He is still playing really well for us...

He is Fan.
Most people on this forum know he is one of fav players. I wanted him for Ireland for years, but 2 x Cork coaches could not see it and we paid the price in the RWC for it.
His time has come and gone now. Still vital, but not as vital anymore. I just think he could be great for a team, that would really appreciate his skills and leadership qualities.

He definitely was instrumental and key, in us winning 3 x HC's. Helped us over the line so many times. But, time stays still for no man. Ryan is coming through.SOB is in situ(not a 7) As is Gilsenan. Must make way for youff.

Its The Leinster Way.

Ireland don't need a 7. Jenno has proven he is not up to it at international level. The breakdown is not an area Ireland struggle with. Of the conutries that play with a "pure 7", that player is usually the sole specialist breakdown operator. Ireland's backrow are a great unit as they are all skilled at the breakdown and tackle area. Best and the likes of Ryan are also adep at this area.

With the amount of back rowers at Leinster the IRFU should be looking at their equitable distribution. I'm not sure how you go about this and of course the players have a say and Leinster too obviously. The last thing we need is gilsenan or coghlan breaking through to the national side at 28 a la donncha Ryan.

Let's get these lads as much gametime as possible

Gibson wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Gibson when would you like to see jenno leave? He is still playing really well for us...

He is Fan.
Most people on this forum know he is one of fav players. I wanted him for Ireland for years, but 2 x Cork coaches could not see it and we paid the price in the RWC for it.
His time has come and gone now. Still vital, but not as vital anymore. I just think he could be great for a team, that would really appreciate his skills and leadership qualities.

He definitely was instrumental and key, in us winning 3 x HC's. Helped us over the line so many times. But, time stays still for no man. Ryan is coming through.SOB is in situ(not a 7) As is Gilsenan. Must make way for youff.

Its The Leinster Way.

Would you let him leave in the summer or would you hang onto him for 1 more year?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Gibson wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Gibson when would you like to see jenno leave? He is still playing really well for us...

He is Fan.
Most people on this forum know he is one of fav players. I wanted him for Ireland for years, but 2 x Cork coaches could not see it and we paid the price in the RWC for it.
His time has come and gone now. Still vital, but not as vital anymore. I just think he could be great for a team, that would really appreciate his skills and leadership qualities.

He definitely was instrumental and key, in us winning 3 x HC's. Helped us over the line so many times. But, time stays still for no man. Ryan is coming through.SOB is in situ(not a 7) As is Gilsenan. Must make way for youff.

Its The Leinster Way.

Would you let him leave in the summer or would you hang onto him for 1 more year?

I dont think Schmidt will let him go next year(2012/2013). We still need him in the 23, if we want another Heino. So the season after. He's not that old. And he's not played so many games, so is not bollixed yet.

I'd love to see him Captain Connacht in the HC.

Standulstermen wrote: With the amount of back rowers at Leinster the IRFU should be looking at their equitable distribution. I'm not sure how you go about this and of course the players have a say and Leinster too obviously. The last thing we need is gilsenan or coghlan breaking through to the national side at 28 a la donncha Ryan.

Let's get these lads as much gametime as possible

+1
That's the mistake we make every time. We let squad players get too old, before blooding their replacements. We dont entrust in youth early enough. Then, when we do, in a panic, we feed em to the Lions. Or NZ, as the case may be. Zebo needed to play in the 6-N 1st. As do Gilroy and Cave.

Gilsenan is only 20. Needs to make it at Leinster 1st. But he looks great. Time will tell.

Id like to see ruddock go to ulster or munster and see jordi murphy go to connacht so we can bring gilsenan and conan up...they could play in the A team first then get some rabbo experience

Gibson wrote:

Standulstermen wrote: With the amount of back rowers at Leinster the IRFU should be looking at their equitable distribution. I'm not sure how you go about this and of course the players have a say and Leinster too obviously. The last thing we need is gilsenan or coghlan breaking through to the national side at 28 a la donncha Ryan.

Let's get these lads as much gametime as possible

+1
That's the mistake we make every time. We let squad players get too old, before blooding their replacements. We dont entrust in youth early enough. Then, when we do, in a panic, we feed em to the Lions. Or NZ, as the case may be. Zebo needed to play in the 6-N 1st. As do Gilroy and Cave.

Gilsenan is only 20. Needs to make it at Leinster 1st. But he looks great. Time will tell.

Yeah gibbo I would imagine gilsenan will and should stay with Leinster. Coghlan to me looks a good athelete with a good build on him and Conan has a raw physicality. When you see the stars for NZ at the JRWC, invariably 4 or 5 of them start or get significant gametime in the respective super 15 team the following year. We are so far behind in this regard.

To be fair this is the first time we have had all this young talent coming through we will have to learn how manage it correctly

Maybe set Leinster but donncha ryan not coming througgh internationally until 28 is a shocking statistic. I'm not blaming kidney per se but the inherent conservatism that is instilled in Irish rugby.

Ye true...but so long as kidney is in charge we wont see our young guns get played...its comical that o gara is in the squad instead of madigan

I think Munster need backrows due to the retirments they have had, would you guys take Ruddock? I am really hoping that Ryan will really kick on this season, last year he was outstanding against Clermont for instance I want to see more of that.

Ulster have some pretty good new guys coming up don't they? POM is going to be hugely important for Munster this year coming.

Going back a bit to a future Leinster backline

Reddan-Sexton
mcFadden-EOM
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Kearney

That's not including Carr, Conway, that 13 whos name escapes me!

Not sure who I want to put in first EOM with BOD or McFadden with BOd but I think naturally what will occur is rotation so in Pro12 possibly mcF-Eom then in some big games we'd have EOM in and in some we'd have McF

Brendan Macken?

pete is the 13 your thinking of brendan macken? And ruddock already turned down an Offer from munster

Brendan Macken is presently O Malley's understudy. No way he's going to Ulster or anywhere else. We have invested far too much time and effort in him. He was supposed to be the One.
O' Malley has snuck ahead of him. But only just.

BOD is on the wane. Living on his past, intelligence and sheer bravery.

He wont make the Lions, no matter how much he wants it. Once he realises that, it will make him realise its nearly over for him, at the very highest level.

But someone, not Kidney, will have to face him and tell him that.

He has another Heino in him. But is suffering at international level now.

Ergo, we need O' Malley and Macken to fill that 13 gap at Leinster.

They are both brilliant. But neither are the new BOD.

That will come again in 20/30 years.

I hope macken and conway get more gametime this year they both look great prospects...

Standulstermen wrote:Maybe set Leinster but donncha ryan not coming througgh internationally until 28 is a shocking statistic. I'm not blaming kidney per se but the inherent conservatism that is instilled in Irish rugby.

Totally agree stand, its endemic in Irish culture and life not just sport. We're terrified of change and failure so we play the percentages and take the path of percieved less risk...its the way we are..we invented the Garryowen FFS.... there's always exceptions to the rule, mavericks who break the mould but they are the exceptions...... thats why the IRFU hire yes men and don't like boat rockers.... the Geoghegans, Gatlands, Neil Bests ..guys who don't tow the line and tell it how it is.....

Because of this we are being left behind......

Parodoxically I disagree Gibbo..BOD is good enough to play in another Lions tour...perhaps even another RWC but I agree with the point generally.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rHqV3YMTP8

Throwing in Neil Best with Geoghegan and Gatland is kind of an insult to those two. There's a difference between breaking the mould and making everyone hate you. Demanding to be the guy to lift the Churchill Cup when there were three different Captains in the tournament. Leaving drunken abusive messages on the phone of the national coach when not selected for training squads. But most of all for me is the disrespect he showed for the Ulster jersey in his last season here. I've never seen less effort from a 'professional' rugby player who clearly had nothing but contempt for his teammates, coaches and the Ulster supporters.

We have a few players who simply don't buy into that Irish inferiority 'ah, sure we'll have a go mindset"- I seriously Stephen Ferris, Brian O'Driscoll, Johnny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Rory Best, Rob Kearney etc. are ever found to talk about 'moral victories' and they've no fear. They want to win, nothing else matters much. And if they have to take risks to win they absolutely will. But that doesn't matter if the same mentality doesn't exist in their colleagues and coaches.

Neil Best, on the other hand, just seems to be more of a gobshoite than a maverick.

Notch wrote:We have a few players who simply don't buy into that Irish inferiority 'ah, sure we'll have a go mindset"- I seriously Stephen Ferris, Brian O'Driscoll, Johnny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Rory Best, Rob Kearney etc. are ever found to talk about 'moral victories' and they've no fear. They want to win, nothing else matters much. And if they have to take risks to win they absolutely will. But that doesn't matter if the same mentality doesn't exist in their colleagues and coaches.

Neil Best, on the other hand, just seems to be more of a gobshoite than a maverick.

:dressedorange:

They are so far and few between though Notch. We really must stop this dreaming. We will never compete at the high-end unless we find out how to change our DNA. And psyche.
The Give it a Lash Era, is still with us and thriving. In all our sporting endeavours.

I thought it might change with your generation, but it has not.
It is getting better in Ireland. But as it does,the likes of NZ are producing the higher goods to keep it at bay.

We need to shaag Maoris & Saffers and breed Irish versions of em.

Notch wrote:Neil Best, on the other hand, just seems to be more of a gobshoite than a maverick.

Notch one man's maverick is another man's gobshoite.

Standulstermen wrote:Maybe set Leinster but donncha ryan not coming througgh internationally until 28 is a shocking statistic. I'm not blaming kidney per se but the inherent conservatism that is instilled in Irish rugby.

For the record in Ryan case - Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18. Added to the late start, he also turned down a pro contract with Munster to stay in college for an extra year. He turned down an offer from Cheika in Leinster (as well a couple of years ago).

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Maybe set Leinster but donncha ryan not coming througgh internationally until 28 is a shocking statistic. I'm not blaming kidney per se but the inherent conservatism that is instilled in Irish rugby.

For the record in Ryan case - Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18. Added to the late start, he also turned down a pro contract with Munster to stay in college for an extra year. He turned down an offer from Cheika in Leinster (as well a couple of years ago).

Me bollix. Really SIN?

We must have been badly stuck or yer makin it up.

Gibson wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Maybe set Leinster but donncha ryan not coming througgh internationally until 28 is a shocking statistic. I'm not blaming kidney per se but the inherent conservatism that is instilled in Irish rugby.

For the record in Ryan case - Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18. Added to the late start, he also turned down a pro contract with Munster to stay in college for an extra year. He turned down an offer from Cheika in Leinster (as well a couple of years ago).

Me bollix. Really SIN?

We must have been badly stuck or yer makin it up.

Yes, really. Cheika saw him playing for Shannon against UCD when he went out to watch Trevor Hogan (who did take a contract from Cheika - so you must have been badly stuck )

Gibson wrote:

Notch wrote:We have a few players who simply don't buy into that Irish inferiority 'ah, sure we'll have a go mindset"- I seriously Stephen Ferris, Brian O'Driscoll, Johnny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Rory Best, Rob Kearney etc. are ever found to talk about 'moral victories' and they've no fear. They want to win, nothing else matters much. And if they have to take risks to win they absolutely will. But that doesn't matter if the same mentality doesn't exist in their colleagues and coaches.

Neil Best, on the other hand, just seems to be more of a gobshoite than a maverick.

:dressedorange:

They are so far and few between though Notch. We really must stop this dreaming. We will never compete at the high-end unless we find out how to change our DNA. And psyche.
The Give it a Lash Era, is still with us and thriving. In all our sporting endeavours.

I thought it might change with your generation, but it has not.
It is getting better in Ireland. But as it does,the likes of NZ are producing the higher goods to keep it at bay.

We need to shaag Maoris & Saffers and breed Irish versions of em.

The "give it a lash' of the boxers, golfers, Sonia O'Sullivans and the Aussie Rules team seems to work ok.
(Bear in mind that the amateur GAA lads don't give an inch to the most competitive sporting country in the world in their No. 1 sport which they play professionally - think they are evens on series wins).

For such a small population, we sure punch well above our weight when it comes to sporting achievements.

The Boxers don't seem to have a give it a lash mentality. They strive for perfection and the boxing programme put in place by the IOC is highly professional. It is a superb system and one of the few incredibly well put together organisations in Irish sport. Katie Taylor isn't even happy with what her 4th world title in a row? The boxers are not part of the "give it a lash" crowd.

Sin é wrote:
The "give it a lash' of the boxers, golfers, Sonia O'Sullivans and the Aussie Rules team seems to work ok.

Not sure about the latter but I think Sonia O'Sullivan, Rory Mac, Bernard Dunne, Barry McGuigan, Wayne McCullough etc would be pretty insulted to be told that they give it a lash.... in fact the opposite is true.. they have succeeded because they are the antithesis of the traditional Irish give it a lash attitude... they are all highly talented, competitive and ultra professional athletes.

I think that Sin was making the same point as you are Rodders.