Rugby debate: Drop Priestland? Yes or No?

First topic message reminder :

This is by no means an assault on one player because Wales lost. I think there should be several changes for next week. There was a lot of rustyness and silly errors, but one thing I am noticing is one person in particular is not developing as well as others.

Rhys Priestland has of course played well for the Scarlets and had some great games for Wales. He played well during the WC till he got injured and he hasn't really played with any consistency since.

Yes he has talent, yes he's played well before, yes he's young and of course if he has one or two poor games then axing him isn't always the solution. Players need another chance if they have potential and you don't want to destroy a players confidence by dropping them for the odd mediocre performance. He can play shambolic against England and we can still win, but that is England. This Australia test is serious and we need some big bottle and big performances.

He kicks possession away for no reason when he have the likes of Cuthbert, North and JD2 outside of him. When he kicks an up and under it goes too far and can't be chased. Of course the worst mistake was the knock on that could have lead to a match winning try. His Six Nations was average, he didn't spark. He rarely makes a good break (like Stephen Jones). Our running backline needs a more attacking minded 10.

Hook deserves a chance quite frankly because we have nobody else. The best 10 in the UK (Dan Biggar) wasn't good enough to tour, apparently.

Priestland should start next week on the bench. If Hook has a howler then he can come back on in the 2nd half and prove his worth. We have enough 10's in Wales knocking at the door. Time to see who is the most capable.

"He is a RUBBISH fullback at test level!" -- If you think that, you have to ask yourself why the coaches keep playing him there ...

Ospreydragon wrote:"He is a RUBBISH fullback at test level!" -- If you think that, you have to ask yourself why the coaches keep playing him there ...

Injuries to other players.

Was that a serious question?

[quote="Casartelli"]Flyhalffactory old boy! - How's things big man?


"Morgan at 9 and Hook at 10??? Now I'd pay good money to see that!"

Ah a fool and his money are soon parted

[quote="dragonbreath"]

Casartelli wrote:Flyhalffactory old boy! - How's things big man?


"Morgan at 9 and Hook at 10??? Now I'd pay good money to see that!"

Ah a fool and his money are soon parted

Fair point!

We could play Webb & Tovey??? Set the world alight with some champagne rugby.

How RP is still playing for wales is a mystery to me, is this really the best we can do, he hasn't performed anywhere near the standard expected of an international welsh fly-half for the last 5 games, for all the talk of competition for places in the welsh squad, im yet to see were players who perform badly are being withdrawn from the first team.

I think the result against Australia can to a certain extent be put down to Howley's management, his decision to leave Dan Biggar at home is now coming back to bite him, and I couldnt be happier with that because in my opinion Biggar was left out because of a personal dislike of him by Howley.

I do not trust Hook to run the game, he consistently run's down blind allies and gets turned over, pocock will be rubbing his hands if hook starts. Suppose what im trying to say is that i would start Priestland just because there's no one else, Biggar was the only option and he hasn't be taken so wales only have themselves to blame.

I would like nothing more than Priestland to prove me wrong and smash the ozzies

But better than Preistland at 15 who can't catch

I ask the question: Was RP's form during the WC a fluke or do we genuinely think he can get back to that level?.

Personally, he did it for more than one game, and him not being there for the semi was a big miss. I think perhaps he's set his standards so high that we now compare everything he does to the WC.

martyr_94 wrote:I ask the question: Was RP's form during the WC a fluke or do we genuinely think he can get back to that level?.

Personally, he did it for more than one game, and him not being there for the semi was a big miss. I think perhaps he's set his standards so high that we now compare everything he does to the WC.

He hit his peak during the RWC warm up games, when he was genuine world class, but it all started to decline after he hit that horrific drop kick against SA in the RWC tournament itself.

Hasn't been the same since.

Has RP kicked a drop goal, not for Wales in how many attempts?

Rhys is a confidence player and he has lost confidence. He needs to be taken out of the firing line. Hook can be great or dreadful and is a hell of a gamble in a series in which we are already 1 down.

For me Biggar can stay on the beach, a good club player and no more. He has failed to even replicate his club form when called upon, let alone make the necessary step up to be an effective international player

Which leaves us in a bit of a pickle at 10, who would ever have thought it.

Oh for a 25 year old Wellies, who was the best 10 in the NH for a decade despite what his critics may say.

It wouldn't surprise me if Rhys is given one more chance, but on balance Hook should play. Everyone cross everything

martyr_94 wrote:I ask the question: Was RP's form during the WC a fluke or do we genuinely think he can get back to that level?.

Personally, he did it for more than one game, and him not being there for the semi was a big miss. I think perhaps he's set his standards so high that we now compare everything he does to the WC.

He proved in the WC warm up games, and in the WC itself that as a 10 he can do more than Hook and probably (Jones and Biggar) has ever been able to do.

He can set up an ATTACKING yet STRUCTURED 15 man rugby ...............way of playing that hasnt been seen from a Welsh team for probably a decade

Casartelli wrote:

martyr_94 wrote:I ask the question: Was RP's form during the WC a fluke or do we genuinely think he can get back to that level?.

Personally, he did it for more than one game, and him not being there for the semi was a big miss. I think perhaps he's set his standards so high that we now compare everything he does to the WC.

He hit his peak during the RWC warm up games, when he was genuine world class, but it all started to decline after he hit that horrific drop kick against SA in the RWC tournament itself.

Hasn't been the same since.

When has he really been world class? He can't kick drop goals i.e. he can't deal with pressure.

He has had a few nice touches over the past year, best examples being

1) few good passes to Roberts v SA
2) Lovely pass to jd2 for try vs Ireland

Other than that has he has had the "armchair" ride due to an excellent pack and the other backs performing

When the pack or other players haven't played 100%, that is when you really notice his weaknesses.

He doesn't make breaks or run much. He did get a try against Australia last year though.

He is like Stephen Jones, but not as good.

caravan wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

martyr_94 wrote:I ask the question: Was RP's form during the WC a fluke or do we genuinely think he can get back to that level?.

Personally, he did it for more than one game, and him not being there for the semi was a big miss. I think perhaps he's set his standards so high that we now compare everything he does to the WC.

He hit his peak during the RWC warm up games, when he was genuine world class, but it all started to decline after he hit that horrific drop kick against SA in the RWC tournament itself.

Hasn't been the same since.

When has he really been world class? He can't kick drop goals i.e. he can't deal with pressure.

He has had a few nice touches over the past year, best examples being

1) few good passes to Roberts v SA
2) Lovely pass to jd2 for try vs Ireland

Other than that has he has had the "armchair" ride due to an excellent pack and the other backs performing

When the pack or other players haven't played 100%, that is when you really notice his weaknesses.

He doesn't make breaks or run much. He did get a try against Australia last year though.

He is like Stephen Jones, but not as good.

I would say the opposite
He was the player that linked the forward play to the attacking back line

No other 10 has been able to do that

Watch the guys positioning in those matches............. joy to watch

FHF - congrats on your 1000th post!

But - Priestland has been found out at test level. He hit a peak of form in the RWC warm up games but has been on the decline since.

It's all about Hook (and Biggar as understudy) now.

Flyhalf:

Your posts are stuck at 1000, well done!

If RP was showing form for the Scarlet's then I think most fans would be more optimistic of his form improving but the truth is he hasn't really played that well since the start of the 6N.

But atm he's the best we've got (in the squad), Biggar would be my 10, not had a bad game for a while, and offers a kicking option in the final third

Casartelli wrote:FHF - congrats on your 1000th post!

But - Priestland has been found out at test level. He hit a peak of form in the RWC warm up games but has been on the decline since.

It's all about Hook (and Biggar as understudy) now.

It's this "Biggar as under-study" part i don't understand. Biggar, at the moment, is the better 10, why should he be lower down in the pecking order?

CulyOsp, i couldnt agree with you more, he is prone to the odd mistake but he is far and away the best FH in wales atm

If Biggar can get the same consistency for Wales that he has for the Ospreys he will be the Welsh 10 for a considerable period - which is why Howley dropping him makes no sense.

I'm of the view that Howley and Biggar don't quite see eye to eye, and thats the reason for him not being on tour, i hope wales dont pay too heavy price.

Even if Biggar didnt start a test I still think that it would have benefited him being in an international environment, so dont really see any reason for not taking him.

I think gatland may have some tough questions for him if this ends up costing wales the series

To be fair Priestland didn't exactly have much form at 10 going into the wc warm up matches. He just played and took the bull by the horns and played his game, something which Biggar has yet to do.

I don't really think Biggar is the answer, he just doesn't get enough out of the backline. Since he's been the Ospreys 10 our attacking game has slowly declined. No matter who he plays for he struggles to get the backline moving. He's a great goal kicker, tactical kicker(ish) and "commander" (couldn't think of another word) but a playmaker he is not.

flyhalffactory wrote:
Hook in his first two international season had more games at 10 that Jones/Robinson/Sweeney combined (I have given these stats before) HOW MUCH MORE CHANCES CAN YOU GIVE A PLAYER

Well funnily enough in his first two seasons of international rugby he looked like a fantastic player and during the 08 season as well. Gavin Henson and Lee Byrne's subsequent injuries and Biggar's "rise" at the Ospreys led to him being shuffled around all over the place. If only we had decent back up 12's and 15's then...

in his first two seasons of international rugby he looked like a fantastic player

No he didn't. He looked as selfish and lateral as he does now.

Glas a du wrote:

in his first two seasons of international rugby he looked like a fantastic player

No he didn't. He looked as selfish and lateral as he does now.

Love sacks. He looked great when he came on in the Aussie games in 06 and when he started the 07 Aussie games he looked really good i thought. And then when he was finally given a chance in the 07 6 nations against England he looked great again.

Super break by Hook vs. the Brumbies at 1.10 on the highlights, btw.

I think Priestland has already peaked, he was never going to live up to all the hype surrounding the 2011 RWC.

Good player but not a world beater like Wilko or potentially Farrell.

Bring back S.Jones

bring back stephen jones !

No

Edit: For the calls to bring back Steve Jones, not Priestland being dropped

just watched the highlights of the brumbies game and hook looked very good, I have no doubt he should be starting on Sat.

If we'd lost the England game - which we would have but for a moment of Scott Williams magic - the Priest would have been axed then and there and become one of the most unpopular players in Wales. Meanwhile Hook gets stick for being lateral & selfish blah blah blah even as he scores tries and kicks points!

Minutes playing 10 for Wales since the World Cup.

Priestland 560

Hook 92 (Brumbies game & 12 mins vs Baa-baas, tries in both matches).

Suggest you check out the lovely hands and break at 1.10 on the Brumbies highlights that almost puts Bishop in for a try. Lateral? Hardly.

I love Hook

When the Priest first came to prominence in the World Cup warm-up games, it looked as if we had uncovered a gem. He showed a great passing game and good kicking, with the ability to make darting breaks. Not the least of his attributes was his temperament, as he seemed to soak up pressure well. He continued his good form in the World Cup, whereas Hook and Stephen Jones played well below their best standards.

But that was then. This is now. In the 6N, the Priest was terrible agaisnt England but OK in most of the other matches. Though his positional kicking was not international standard, his passing remains of high quality. Problem is his aura of ice-cool nerve has gone. It turns out he's a confidence player, just like Hook and many others. After the first match of the 6N, he had to have place kicking taken away from him. Fortunately 1/2P stepped up brilliaintly and we didn't feel the lack. What happens if 1/2P is injured, though, is still unclear.

All players go through poor patches, and Priestland will no doubt recover. Right now, though, he need to rediscover form and nerve.

So Hook looks good against Brumbies seconds, I am sorry that proves nothing.

Hook has been poor for Wales for two seasons (he was pants on saturday). When he gets picked to start a proper test match (and he inevitably will) and plays well for 80mins (not just a few flashes in amongst the mediocrity) then I will start to have confidence in him. Until then, keep him on the bench.

I'm a Rhys Priestland fan but, I have to say he's been crud since the RWC finished. Recent correspondant wrote "Rhys had one of his worst games for wales..." - Yup, he's had a string of them though! Sometimes a rest can do wonders for a player.

pretty shocked he wasnt subbed against England .he tried his best to lose that match . start with hook and then if thats not working bring him on with a point to prove . agreed hook no full back .

even posters who dont rate biggar must surely realise that not taking him to oz means there is a lot more going on here behind the scenes.

howley was quick to get his say out in the paper before biggars last game, when he wasnt allowed to kick, howley 'announced' that he had 'told biggar how to play this game, didnt want anything other than a steady performance, no running passing barbarian type rugby.'

so, no chance to score points( hook does the kicking) told to keep it tight
even the tv pundits were on biggars side with the lack of runners outside him, lack of options. , poor service from lloyd w who was awful.

like or loath, biggar will be the next 10 for wales and for a considerable time, he's only 22 so we need him in now, oz would have been ideal.
howley should go , along with gatlands other 'sops' as another poster put
it.
this is test rugby , no room for personal agendas from howley.hes not up to the job, too much of the old welsh parochialism.

cool heads everyone, just think about our tactics,................ thats proof enough.

Gavstar, agreed there was something strange about not taking Biggar, given that the Priest was misfiring and Hook was being asked to cover other positions and Biggar has had an excellent season. Whether it is just Howley or Gatland is involved too I don't know.

It's Howley, it's all Howley. He's hopeless.

gowales wrote:To be fair Priestland didn't exactly have much form at 10 going into the wc warm up matches. He just played and took the bull by the horns and played his game, something which Biggar has yet to do.

I don't really think Biggar is the answer, he just doesn't get enough out of the backline. Since he's been the Ospreys 10 our attacking game has slowly declined. No matter who he plays for he struggles to get the backline moving. He's a great goal kicker, tactical kicker(ish) and "commander" (couldn't think of another word) but a playmaker he is not.

Have you even seen any Ospreys games since March?? DB was floundering under the old O's regime but Tandy's given the lad his confidence back and is a different player now. This tour would've been ideal for him. Confidence and form on a high, yet Hook is given ANOTHER chance. I like Hooky but at least give someone who is having the best months of his young career a shot...

People forget Priestlands best game for Wales was against Ireland in the World Cup quarter final, tactically he played his role perfectly.

I look at Priestland and still see a player with real potential. But I agree with a lot of posters who say Priestland's cnfidence looks shot. Maybe shot is too strong a word, but maybe shaken into conservatism is better. This only gives one option, which is Hook. At least Hook played at 10 for his club all season and got good reviews doing so. I'd give him a go since a dynamic running attacking game is needed against Aus, and that is really Hook's game.

The way I see Hook is he needs to keep moving constantly as his legs and getting around the pitch is one of the best parts of his game. And that, I think, keeps his head in it better than standing back waiting for the ball. So quick service from the scrum-half is even more critical for him compared to other 10s. If that happens, I think he would do well. And that would mean Wales are on the front foot, which can be nothing but good.

doctor_grey wrote:I look at Priestland and still see a player with real potential. But I agree with a lot of posters who say Priestland's cnfidence looks shot. Maybe shot is too strong a word, but maybe shaken into conservatism is better. This only gives one option, which is Hook. At least Hook played at 10 for his club all season and got good reviews doing so. I'd give him a go since a dynamic running attacking game is needed against Aus, and that is really Hook's game.

The way I see Hook is he needs to keep moving constantly as his legs and getting around the pitch is one of the best parts of his game. And that, I think, keeps his head in it better than standing back waiting for the ball. So quick service from the scrum-half is even more critical for him compared to other 10s. If that happens, I think he would do well. And that would mean Wales are on the front foot, which can be nothing but good.

Well Howley has chosen the same combo at SH & FH maybe if it all goes awry a Webb - Hook partnership may speed things up?

Just like Biggar can do no right, Priestland can do no wrong, it seems.

Can Webb pressure Genia?
Doesn't need to be draped over him, but just enough to force that extra second dealy in a pass or run.

Breadvan wrote:

gowales wrote:To be fair Priestland didn't exactly have much form at 10 going into the wc warm up matches. He just played and took the bull by the horns and played his game, something which Biggar has yet to do.

I don't really think Biggar is the answer, he just doesn't get enough out of the backline. Since he's been the Ospreys 10 our attacking game has slowly declined. No matter who he plays for he struggles to get the backline moving. He's a great goal kicker, tactical kicker(ish) and "commander" (couldn't think of another word) but a playmaker he is not.

Have you even seen any Ospreys games since March?? DB was floundering under the old O's regime but Tandy's given the lad his confidence back and is a different player now. This tour would've been ideal for him. Confidence and form on a high, yet Hook is given ANOTHER chance. I like Hooky but at least give someone who is having the best months of his young career a shot...

I did see him play and he was playing very well. But he still isn't getting the best out of the backs outside him. It also helped a lot when the Ospreys pack stepped it up and started dominating again, behind a pack like that he should have been playing very well, if he didn't then there would be something very wrong with him.

How many games will Preistland get before he is dropped, it seems hard to get dropped once you are part of the in crowd. Delve is still not part of the in crowd as I would have expected him to be on the bench after being called up. I suspect they may move Warburton to 8 and bring on Tips but if anyone is to break down, it will be Warburton.

Conservatism at work. The guys that won the slam get the nod, even if they're way out of form. Understandable, but one reason the ABs are so great is that their coaches never ever think like this.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

This also makes the players think that they can play poorly and not get dropped so the competition for places isn't what it was and the younger players then get annoyed because they think they can't do anything to break into the team etc..

rhonddasmackhead wrote:The whole thing doesn't make sense.

This also makes the players think that they can play poorly and not get dropped so the competition for places isn't what it was and the younger players then get annoyed because they think they can't do anything to break into the team etc..

Hook is older than Priestland and Biggar seems to divide opinions.

glamorganalun wrote:How many games will Preistland get before he is dropped, it seems hard to get dropped once you are part of the in crowd. Delve is still not part of the in crowd as I would have expected him to be on the bench after being called up. I suspect they may move Warburton to 8 and bring on Tips but if anyone is to break down, it will be Warburton.

You are right Alun, you had many "slam crowd" players who didnt perform

Warburton, and Adam Jones did nothing to protect Priestland on the openside, both underperformed, Gethin missed three tackles and knocked on for a breakaway move that nearly resulted in a try all in the space of the first 20 mins. Phillips was non-existant and his distribution slow and laboured and Hook had a mare at 15 (AGAIN).

And yet........................ its that old chestnut concentrate on the flyhalf

You maybe should be looking at ways to stop Pocock and Simmons been in Priestlands "line of sight", the guy didnt have a chance in the last test