Day 15 - Men's Singles Final

First topic message reminder :

Nadal v Djokovic.

Here is the thread for the final, can't believe I might miss it due to cricket!

I say Nole for the win in 5 sets, IT'S HIS GODDAMN DESTINY

summerblues wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:It will be forgotten in the same way as Laver's minor detail was forgotten.

Oh clearly his feat will not be forgotten. I was talking about legacies and denting there.

I think it will be said that Federer was one of the all time greats, breaking numerous records, and one of the last to have a single handed back-hand, before the game transitioned to favour the double handed backhand etc ...

Nore Staat wrote:

Seifer Almasy wrote: ... I am loving it. The smug arrogant 1 dimensional idiot is being beaten. Nadal is a complete turn off for me on the court. He is unsporting and pig ignorant, like his Uncle. Federer is past his prime. What is Nadal's excuse. ...

You have strong emotional feelings for Nadal?

I do. Full of hatred for the fist pumping bore. Nothing would please me more than him losing on his beloved clay in the final against the man that has laid his game bare. If Nadal loses here, it will crush his soul!

That's just silly.

Atleast he has a soul.

Looks like Nadal gets a reprieve for now (or Djokovic, depending on your allegiance)!

I don't think we'll see Djokovic coming onto court with the same level of nervousness which cost him those first two sets so if it levels off at 2 sets apiece, will Nadal be able to pull himself over?

He won't need to be worried so much about Djokovic outlasting him as he knows he needs just one set more and it would probably go on for another two or three hours at most (probably less).

Nadal is still the favourite

Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Some people don't have souls themselves.

Luciusmann, court has to be drier tomorrow than it ended tonight which can only b a help to Nadal. Still, this is on a knife-edge...I can't call it now.

In my books having a crushed soul is better than having no soul at all, so you can suck my tiddlywink Seifer.

BTW are you the same Seifer Almasy who spammed the snooker boards on the original 606 and got banned.

Why didn't the organisers just start the game 2 hours earlier knowing the bad weather was coming?
Shocking. Just crap

Seifer Almasy wrote: I do. Full of hatred for the fist pumping bore. Nothing would please me more than him losing on his beloved clay in the final against the man that has laid his game bare. If Nadal loses here, it will crush his soul!

There's no doubt that being up 2 sets to love and a break in the third @ his best slam would be highly damaging to his confidence. However, many Nadal fans being in denial about the Djokovic threat isn't new. It happened last year when we were approach RG and Wimbledon, Djokovic can get to the slam final but he won't beat Rafa: well this notion was turned on its head. The way in which Djokovic has turned this match around is remarkable and the number of times he's broken Nadal shows he's certainly got in Rafa's head. Whether it will be enough to take down Nadal here, we'll have to wait but if Djokovic holds onto his serve when he comes out tomorrow, I just hope Nadal keeps up the fight and doesn't roll over in the final set like did @ the USO & Wimbledon final last year. He put up a fight in the Aussie Open this year so that fighting spirit will at least make Djokovic earn the 4 in a row. Can't be denied he's already had to make a massive come back to keep the 4 in a row alive!

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

The weather is a disaster till Wednesday. Lets hope for a 1-2h window tomorrow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2988507

Where have all these Djoko fans crept up today? They must be Serbian Government agents

I have been at cricket all day, meaning I have missed all the tennis

VAMOS NOVAK

lydian wrote:Luciusmann, court has to be drier tomorrow than it ended tonight which can only b a help to Nadal. Still, this is on a knife-edge...I can't call it now.

Come on lydian, do you really think the conditions were affecting Nadal more adversely than Djokovic? The conditions made the ball slower and it's seems strange that reduced visibility of the ball (being coated in red clay) would affect Nadal more. Firstly, slower conditions should favour Nadal and secondly Djokovic is the one who wears contact lenses, not Nadal, so you'll expect him to be more affected!

Nadal wanted to get off court because winning 1 game in the last 9 was threatening his chances of staying in contention of the 4th set. He can still get the break back and end this in 4 but had he continued, you do feel he would have got broken again at some point in the 4th. So many uncharacteristic errors from Nadal and the rallies were being mainly won by Djokovic. It feels more a reprieve for Nadal than for Djokovic. Things could only have got worse for Nadal, not better.

Seifer Almasy wrote:

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

I didn't know you were his uncle??

It is good to have passion for the sport / players etc but there is no need to go overboard.

More of the same for tomorrow, and if not tomorrow tuesday, and if not tuesday wednesday.

As has been shown time and time again in this tournament, Nadal comes out strong, while Djokovic takes longer to get into his stride. Consequently, Nadal is still the clear favorite.

Luciusmann, I dont agree. Its a myth Nadal likes slow clay courts. He's said so himself. Cold, damp clay courts nullify the spin and bounce in his game. Being damp also helps flatter balls slide through too. It's why he didn't go to Hamburg routinely, and we saw him struggle more against Roger there.

Yes agree about the 4th set...his head was all over the place...so that evens up the advantage of coming off for them both.

But they made a mistake not covering the courts during that 40 min rain break. Court was just getting wetter by the minute. A lot hinges on the conditions tomorrow IMO.

Why did they not start the match at 12 today? Was it raining? That 2 hours could see the match finished by now

Nore Staat wrote:It is good to have passion for the sport / players etc but there is no need to go overboard.

More of the same for tomorrow, and if not tomorrow tuesday, and if not tuesday wednesday.

As has been shown time and time again in this tournament, Nadal comes out strong, while Djokovic takes longer to get into his stride. Consequently, Nadal is still the clear favorite.

I think that's a false prospect to be honest. Djokovic was certainly nervous because it was the final, once he got into his stride he turned it around. It did take a lot longer than we might have expected.

You think Nadal will be gifted a break when they resume the match tomorrow like Djokovic did when they started today? Highly unlikely, he's already got the break in the 4th so even if Nadal breaks back, that only puts them on level terms. If it had been evens in the 4th set I'd agree, Nadal would be 'clear favourite' but he hasn't so evens at most but probably more Djokovic because he's come back from the brink, just like he did against Tsonga and against Fed in the second set. Nadal hasn't come back from the brink at all, it's this fighting quality which I mentioned prior to the match as being the reason I tipped Djokovic to win and it hasn't let me down yet! When Nadal was being pulled towards the brink he demanded to be taken off court, quite a contrast to Novak!

lydian wrote:Luciusmann, I dont agree. Its a myth Nadal likes slow clay courts. He's said so himself. Cold, damp clay courts nullify the spin and bounce in his game. Being damp also helps flatter balls slide through too. It's why he didn't go to Hamburg routinely, and we saw him struggle more against Roger there.

Yes agree about the 4th set...his head was all over the place...so that evens up the advantage of coming off for them both.

But they made a mistake not covering the courts during that 40 min rain break. Court was just getting wetter by the minute. A lot hinges on the conditions tomorrow IMO.

Well if that's the case lydian, tomorrow doesn't bode much better for Nadal. Nor does Tuesday. Nadal is just going to have to live with the conditions which are most likely to be damp, cold and slow. I don't think the conditions had much to do with Nadal losing 8 games in a row. That can't be the reason. Djokovic's increased 1st serve is a far better explanation, as well as Nadal faltering that little bit more. However, the 1st serve % stands out more. It went from around 48% in the 2nd to 75% in the 3rd.

Completely agree CAS. The weather forecast was known to be poor but they stuck to the mid-afternoon, post-posh lunch, time slot. Had they started at 1pm Paris time they would have had at least a 4 hr uninterrupted play window and much drier conditions through out. The French organisers are consistently poor.

luciusmann wrote: ... You think Nadal will be gifted a break when they resume the match tomorrow like Djokovic did when they started today? ... it's this fighting quality which I mentioned prior to the match as being the reason I tipped Djokovic to win and it hasn't let me down yet! ...

Good luck to you Sir Lucius on your tip. For my part I think nothing and everything, I suspect everyone and no-one. What may be, may not be. But for sure the game will be completed and someone will win assuming the world doesn't fall into a black hole etc.

All I say is that Nadal is still the clear favorite: 1) he is a set up already, 2) needs one more set to win, and 3) has experience in winning at RG - 3a) with a record of 51 wins and 1 loss, 3b) with six titles - a record equalled only be Bjorn Borg.

Those are the facts, and nothing but the facts mam.

I agree L., Nadal lost his focus and that is absolutely critical to his game. He rarely becomes angry on court but you could see him starting to increasingly lose it...which of course energises Djokovic further. They should have stopped at end of 3rd set really. At 7pm at night with rain...it must have been around 11-12c temperature. It will be higher at 1pm tomorrow come what may...but yes it looks damp too. A rather literally dismal end to the championships really. They need that roof...

Also Djoko is taking ages to come up to speed at the start of the match.

Nore Staat wrote: All I say is that Nadal is still the clear favorite: 1) he is a set up already, 2) needs one more set to win, and 3) has experience in winning at RG - 3a) with a record of 51 wins and 1 loss, 3b) with six titles - a record equalled only be Bjorn Borg.

Those are the facts, and nothing but the facts mam.

Yes, it's also a fact he lost 8 games in a row at this very tournament, which he has never done in a final. He's also been broken 7 times in this match, probably another first @ RG (and the match isn't over yet either).

He's a set up but a break down in the current one, which suggests it could be leveled off at 2 apiece rather than Nadal winning it in 4. You're quoting too much of the past which is exactly what would make sense before the match....but they've now played over 3 hours and it's Nadal on the backfoot, not Djokovic and it's Nadal who wanted the interlude badly, not Djokovic. If things are going so swimmingly and Nadal was clear favourite, why demand the interlude so much? The intensity of the rain was no more than half an hour earlier, but I guess when you're losing, any reason to stop (without giving up the match) will do.

Leave the history records outside the match, they're playing now and what's going on, on court is what matters. Already a number of ominous stats which don't favour Nadal have been created and more perhaps tomorrow too. He's only clear favourite if Djokovic's first serve hovers around 50% as in the first two sets. If it sticks around 75% as in the 3rd and the start of the 4th, good chance Nadal loses. Unfortunately we won't know what the 1st serve percentage is until they resume play.

luciusmann wrote: ... He's a set up but a break down in the current one, which suggests it could be leveled off at 2 apiece rather than Nadal winning it in 4. ... they've now played over 3 hours and it's Nadal on the backfoot, not Djokovic and it's Nadal who wanted the interlude badly, not Djokovic. If things are going so swimmingly and Nadal was clear favourite, why demand the interlude so much? ... He's only clear favourite if Djokovic's first serve hovers around 50% as in the first two sets. If it sticks around 75% as in the 3rd and the start of the 4th, good chance Nadal loses. Unfortunately we won't know what the 1st serve percentage is until they resume play.

Firstly the fact that the match was stopped who do you think that favours?
Secondly it is not 100% clear what your point is ... so what of the following would you go along with:
When the match recommences tomorrow:
a) Nadal is the clear favorite.
b) Djokovic is the clear favorite.
c) There are no clear favorites.
ci) Nadal has the edge.
cii) Djokovic has the edge.
ciii) there are no edges - it is balanced on a knife edge.

Cii

Nadal has a slight edge just because he's stemmed the momentum, but if Novak plays like he ended the match today there is nothing Rafa can do, nothing.

this pretty much rules Rafa out of Halle I think

NS, it's fairly clear what my point is. You've established Nadal as clear favourite in your own head not on the basis on the match that has unfolded but based on history. Even that historic link is teneous, it tends to suggest that in the open era that players often don't make the historic records no one else have done (Fed @ Wimbledon '08 comes to mind and @ USO '09).

Djokovic has the edge and saying Nadal is clear favourite is absurd, losing 8 games in a row when you were 2 sets to love up and with a break in a third? The interlude won't change the fact Nadal will be thinking about how he had this match in his grasp! We'll see who the interlude favours tomorrow, right now your speculating and coming up with the notion Nadal is favourite when Nadal was clearly on the back foot.

He was clear favourite 2 sets up to love with a break. I'm afraid that moment has passed and was 4 hours ago. The situation isn't quite as you think. Nadal can still win, Im not saying he won't but there's no way Nadal is clear favourite. You're relying on Novak to go back to serving poorly again, when actually we really don't know.

Just as a matter of fact, I did say on the thread I set up about the Nadal Vs Djokovic final that it would a close match and I only gave it to Djokovic 52 to 49 and if Djokovic wins the 4th set and it goes to a 5th, that pretty much would endorse my prediction. However I didn't think Nadal would come so close to winning and then suddenly lose 8 games in a row.

I guess Djokovic gonna win it 4 in a row.

CAS wrote:Why did they not start the match at 12 today? Was it raining? That 2 hours could see the match finished by now

I cannot agree more. A but of common sense and the match could have been completed today. I never saw the match (as I was working) but credit to Djokovic for hanging in there but something tells me that break came at the right time for Nadal. I still think he'll close the match out.

I wouldn't call 2-0 so close to winning. That said, losing 8 games shows something weird was happening to his head...
It feels like an upward battle for him now despite being 2-1 sets up but there is pressure on Djokovic to hold that 4th set lead. We know this is not a normal match...their nerves are going to be frayed overnight...picking a winner from past events is almost irrelevant now. Tomorrow is a battle of nerve, will and the weather.

What seemed strange to me though was the change of tactic midway by Nadal...there was no need to start serving to the BH and it started to undo him. Toni will be reinforcing this tonight no doubt. But tomorrow is all about being able to execute under what will probably be the most pressure either will have likely felt in their career.

Seifer Almasy wrote:

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

I have to admit that the new breed of Novak fans are annoying C***s.

They bring nothing to the forum but the same crap over and over.

Believe it or not there were years before 2011 where Novak repeatidly had his arss handed to him.

A thing called oh what's called again.....History.

Legend see my post at 1934.

luciusmann wrote:... You've established Nadal as clear favourite ... not on the basis on the match that has unfolded ...

Djokovic has the edge and saying Nadal is clear favourite is absurd, losing 8 games in a row when you were 2 sets to love up and with a break in a third? The interlude won't change the fact Nadal will be thinking about how he had this match in his grasp! ... Nadal was clearly on the back foot.

... You're relying on Novak to go back to serving poorly again, when actually we really don't know.

I am not relying on anything.

You yourself are basing your "Djokovic as favorite" assertion on history - as the match has been stopped. Both players have time to regroup, and the conditions will not be as it was in the third / fourth set (i.e. raining and a water laden court).

I am basing my "Nadal is favorite" statement on facts of the match. Nadal has to win one set to win, whereas Djokovic has to win two sets. Djokovic is serving first when the match recommences, and in the first three sets Djokovic dropped his first service game.

These are all verifiable facts about the match in play.

For real Nole can win all the slams this year because Federer is old and Nadal is a mental midget.

The other players are a non factor in slams and the top 3 has a champion and 2 has beens. The future looks great for Nole with no serious competition from Federer who is old and Nadal the mental midget.

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

yes like peope who insinuate that if Novak wins 4 in a row he somehow wouldn't deserve it because he isn't fedal. But that ceos who bankrupt billion dollar corporations for an 8 figure fee do deserve it. Frankly the guy who gets fed in every grandslams deserves whatever he accomplishes. Why not question the guy who gets the cake semi in every grandslam as deserving it or not?

Seifer Almasy wrote:

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

Me too. Nole will push Nadal into retirement this year. Good for the game.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Seifer Almasy wrote:

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

I have to admit that the new breed of Novak fans are annoying C***s.

They bring nothing to the forum but the same crap over and over.

Believe it or not there were years before 2011 where Novak repeatidly had his arss handed to him.

A thing called oh what's called again.....History.

Actually legend Seifer I believe is fed fan if I am not mistaken. But what a truely ridiculous post from legendkillar. Yes and Roger got his ass kicked by henman and hewitt when he was younger. Maybe you are the one who should study up on the history of the last 18 months.

I am glad that Novak has shown the heart to challenge Nadal. Unfortunately he may have started his comeback too late similar to what happened last year in the semis against Roger. Win or lose, I am proud of what he has accomplished.

Nore Staat wrote: You yourself are basing your "Djokovic as favorite" assertion on history - as the match has been stopped. Both players have time to regroup, and the conditions will not be as it was in the third / fourth set (i.e. raining and a water laden court).

I am basing my "Nadal is favorite" statement on facts of the match. Nadal has to win one set to win, whereas Djokovic has to win two sets. Djokovic is serving first when the match recommences, and in the first three sets Djokovic dropped his first service game.

These are all verifiable facts about the match in play.

I haven't asserted Djokovic as a favourite by much, as I said earlier. Clearly on the record. As the match has gone on and Djokovic has roared back, my view was validated. I haven't checked back through your posts but I'd be curious to know if you picked a winner and in how many sets...? Nadal only complained when he started losing, not before, let's no drag up the conditions not suiting Nadal, he's won 6 titles here, the conditions weren't spectacular last year (obviously not raining then from what I remember but certainly not bright).

You stated Nadal as 'clear' favourite, not merely as favourite. You miss out some convenient facts in the match. Djokovic already has the break in the 4th set. Regardless of if Djokovic loses serve when he comes out tomorrow or Tuesday, Nadal needs to break twice and then hope Djokovic doesn't break back. Rather unlikely now Djokovic's 1st serve is working well now. The interlude will only be useful for Nadal if Djokovic comes out and serves rubbish like he did in the first two sets and a half. That's rather hopeful.

socal1976 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

Seifer Almasy wrote:

lydian wrote:Sometimes the comments on here are ridiculous.
Why would anyone want someone else's soul/spirit crushed

Since souls do not exist, it is figurative. Why?

Fist pumping all the time
Crass comments
Awful loser and worse, awful winner.
Time wasting antics.
Gamesmanship
Fake injury time outs
1 dimensional game which has been unduly rewarded by the tinkering with the courts.
His fans.
His annoying C*** of an uncle

I really hope Nole completes the job tomorrow and sinks his entire career.

I have to admit that the new breed of Novak fans are annoying C***s.

They bring nothing to the forum but the same crap over and over.

Believe it or not there were years before 2011 where Novak repeatidly had his arss handed to him.

A thing called oh what's called again.....History.

Actually legend Seifer I believe is fed fan if I am not mistaken. But what a truely ridiculous post from legendkillar. Yes and Roger got his ass kicked by henman and hewitt when he was younger. Maybe you are the one who should study up on the history of the last 18 months.

I am glad that Novak has shown the heart to challenge Nadal. Unfortunately he may have started his comeback too late similar to what happened last year in the semis against Roger. Win or lose, I am proud of what he has accomplished.

Tell youself that

I shall add ignorant to that list too.

Ignorant of what, so before Novak used to lose prior to 2011 so what does that matter to today's conversation. Maybe you are still peed because murray hasn't had his 2011 I don't know. But Novak fans have as much right to this forum as the awhole fed fans who for 2 years made us read 10,000 points on how tired poor fed was. Check your tude at the door, your comments make less and less sense the more aggressively you whip yourself up.

luciusmann wrote:
Nadal wanted to get off court because winning 1 game in the last 9 was threatening his chances of staying in contention of the 4th set.

Nadal was seen and heard protesting referee's decision to stop the match. He said the conditions were no different than for the past hour, why stop now.

Leff wrote:

luciusmann wrote:
Nadal wanted to get off court because winning 1 game in the last 9 was threatening his chances of staying in contention of the 4th set.

Nadal was seen and heard protesting referee's decision to stop the match. He said the conditions were no different than for the past hour, why stop now.

I'm confused, the commentators on ITV said it was Nadal who wanted to stop because of the rain. So Nadal wanted to continue? Are you sure he wasn't being sarcastic?

Legend if you want persist go ahead really your being a Tinkywinky, Ill leave you to it then.

On the match in general it is hanging on knife's edge my fear is that Novak may lose his momentum and tighthen up again. ONe thing working for him is that he goes into the break in a much more positive frame of mind than his opponent.