What did rugby league do to Wales?

Other than raping a small country of it's bet players for a decade, did rugby league also stall and delay professionalism to Welsh rugby?

I just looked at Wales squad for the 1995 rugby LEAGUE world cup. The majority of players on there had previously played union for Wales. Some came back to play union for Wales and some didn't.

Here is the whole list. Would have been lovely if players like Keiron Cunningham had chosen union and if Iestyn Harris had come sooner.

I'm sure Wales would have had a better 95 world cup with this lot.

Paul Atcheson 1 - - - -
Allan Bateman 3 - - - -
Dean Busby
Neil Cowie 1 - - - -
Keiron Cunningham 3 - - - -
Jonathan Davies (c) 3 - 10 1 21
John Devereux 3 1 - - 4
Kevin Ellis 3 1 - - 4
Richard Eyres 3 - - - -
Phil Ford
Scott Gibbs 2 - - - -
Jonathan Griffiths
Adrian Hadley 2 - - - -
Martin Hall 3 - - - -
Iestyn Harris 3 2 1 1 11
Mark Jones 2 - - - -
Paul Moriarty 3 - - - -
Mark Perrett 1 - - - -
Rowland Phillips 3 1 - - 4
Scott Quinnell 2 - - - -
Kelvin Skerrett 3 - - - -
Gareth Stephens
Anthony Sullivan 3 4 - - 16
Richard Webster
Dai Young

Given that the rules on payment for Welsh players were bent to ensure the largely working class players didn't ditch post-1895 I wouldn't complain too much if I was you.

nah. beer was to blame

or Paul Ringer

HammerofThunor wrote:Given that the rules on payment for Welsh players were bent to ensure the largely working class players didn't ditch post-1895 I wouldn't complain too much if I was you.

Substantiate.

mckay1402 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Given that the rules on payment for Welsh players were bent to ensure the largely working class players didn't ditch post-1895 I wouldn't complain too much if I was you.

Substantiate.

?

Rugby League put us back 15 years 1990-2004 we were unable to compete fielding 2nd and 3rd rate international players at international level. We can now compete which is a good feeling. Instead of having a midfield of J Davies, Bateman and Gibbs for a decade we had Arwel Thomas, David Evans and Boobyer et al - All 3rd rate internationals

We were lucky that Derwyn Jones did not jump ship.

That's 'cos he couldn't jump

Just goes to show how poor our rugby was back then when a useless player like that gets 19 caps.

Well a team like the one below would have been tasty, mean scrum very good breakaways, second best welsh scrum half ever, and backs who were big fast and powerful.

1. Dai Young
2. Cunningham
3. Stuart Evans
4. Paul Moriaty
5. Perrett
6. Rowland Phillips
7. Richard Webster
8. Scott Quinnell
9. David Bishop
10. Jiffy
11. Adrian Hadley
12. Scott Gibbs
13. Bateman
14. Deveraux
15. Iestyn Harris

That's a beast of a team - Stuart Evans was a beast of a prop who went North too early.

After looking at it I did think its the kind of team that would have just beaten the living daylights out of opposition sides, All of them were hard players except jiffy who was just dirty.

We'd struggle with line out ball with that lot but they are powerful, we could include the mild mannered Mark Jones

Cymroglan wrote:We were lucky that Derwyn Jones did not jump ship.

he was excellent in defence, he used to lie accross the pitch

Anyone remeber mark jones terrorising NZ when they played Neath?

slartibartfast wrote:Anyone remeber mark jones terrorising NZ when they played Neath?

You mean SA Slarti

Think we would disrup the opposition line so much it wouldnt matter and if theres lifting we would have been ok.. its not as if the union boys we had at lock were any good.

Gareth Llewellyn might have done beter with the likes of Moriarty, Quinnell and the rest of the mad dogs around him.

Didnt Glyn Llewelyn go north?

I think he went South

Basically what happened was Wales came third in the 1987 world cup and won a triple crown in 1988, losing by 1 point to France in the final game, so not getting the slam. After that League pretty much took most of the Welsh squad, and generally plundered 1 or 2 star players a season in the 90's.

After the World Cup we pretty much lost an entire team, scrum halves Jonathan Griffiths and Dave Bishop, props David Young, and Stuart Evans, centres Allan Bateman and John Deveraux, winger Adrian Hadley, fly half Jonathan Davies, back rowers Richard Webster, Mark Jones, Paul Moriarty etc. A country like Wales simply can't lose their entire first 15 and not suffer for it. This is just off the top of my head there were probably a lot more who left too.

Really it's no suprise the 90's were so bleak, in fact we didn't really show any kind of recovery until 1994 when we won the championship. Personally I hate rugby league I always will, I simply can't stand watching it and I don't know many people who can. Maybe people who are 10 years younger than me won't remember the days when they stripped Wales of all it's best players and condemed us to humiliating losses in Union from taking all our best players. I was taught to hate the sport and I teach my kids the same!

I'll admit seeing most of the boys return in 1997 was fantastic, I remember when Wales went to Scotland not having won there in years and Wales were able to pick all the guys who went to league, Scott Gibbs, Scott Quinell etc, and we went to Murrayfield and creamed them. We had fit professional rugby players, they had a lot of amateurs, the difference was huge. If you look 1997 was pretty much the start of Welsh dominance against Scotland, they used to beat us nearly every game between 89 and 96, but since them we have smashed them more often than not.

No need to take it out on League Alyn, it was pure economics for those lads

I know what Alyn means. As a fan it was terrible, but you have to go where the cash is and it simply wasn't in Wales.

We had some players back, some in their peak like Quinnell and Gibbs and some a bit later in their career like Bateman.

What I find hilarious is in 2/3 years Scott Gibbs went from a skinny centre to an absolute behemoth meathead monster tank!

RubyGuby wrote:No need to take it out on League Alyn, it was pure economics for those lads

Always was, my uncle went north in the thirties. given a choice between the pit and playing rugby in bately he took the latter

Thank god Shane Williams was born in 1977 and not 1967 otherwise we would never have seen him this side of the border!

I often wonder how English rugby would have evolved if both sides hadn't been so pig headed in the early days.

And yes I know that Wales lost good players to League, but think on how many players England has lost because of the split. Yorkshire and Lancashire used to churn out some good sides prior to the break up.

Unfortunately the split was always going to happen, the actual power rested with a bunch of Uber Farts in Twickers and the leafy suburbs of the South East whilst a lot of the actual player power was from the North, and the Blazers were not going to hand over anything to those Northern oiks (money - for playing rugger? good god man, quick get me a pink gin!)

Bloody shame - if there had been a bit more leeway given to those players that needed compensation for missing work and a fairer way of slicing the 'Cake of Power' (trademark) we might now be caining the SH on a regular basis instead of the other way round.

TrailApe wrote:I often wonder how English rugby would have evolved if both sides hadn't been so pig headed in the early days.

And yes I know that Wales lost good players to League, but think on how many players England has lost because of the split. Yorkshire and Lancashire used to churn out some good sides prior to the break up.

Unfortunately the split was always going to happen, the actual power rested with a bunch of Uber Farts in Twickers and the leafy suburbs of the South East whilst a lot of the actual player power was from the North, and the Blazers were not going to hand over anything to those Northern oiks (money - for playing rugger? good god man, quick get me a pink gin!)

Bloody shame - if there had been a bit more leeway given to those players that needed compensation for missing work and a fairer way of slicing the 'Cake of Power' (trademark) we might now be caining the SH on a regular basis instead of the other way round.

Possibly. Though just imagine how good the Aussies would be with triple the player base, and a proper domestic competition

TrailApe wrote:Yorkshire and Lancashire used to churn out some good sides prior to the break up.

They used to churn out the best players and had the support. England home games were played in Yorkshire. The Australians would be frightning and I reckon would have similar to the way the kiwis are now (viewed as often unbeatable, at least by us mortals up north)

The biggest loses for me were Bateman, Evans and Webstar.

Jiffy was a far better league player than he ever was a Union player and we still had some life out of Quinnell and Gibbs.

Possibly. Though just imagine how good the Aussies would be with triple the player base, and a proper domestic competition

Kiwireddevil, that's a very valid point which I'll totally gloss over.


(bugger!)

I remember them days only to well, there are a few left off that list as well, I am sure that Phill Fords brother went and Dai Bishop off the top of my head, then there were a massive raft of lesser known players that went. I feared reading the Western Mail because every day there was a story when a player was being linked to rugby league. Didn't Mark Perigo go North as well ?

AlynDavies wrote:
After the World Cup we pretty much lost an entire team, scrum halves Jonathan Griffiths and Dave Bishop, props David Young, and Stuart Evans, centres Allan Bateman and John Deveraux, winger Adrian Hadley, fly half Jonathan Davies, back rowers Richard Webster, Mark Jones, Paul Moriarty etc. A country like Wales simply can't lose their entire first 15 and not suffer for it. This is just off the top of my head there were probably a lot more who left too.

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/21981.html

Dire match, but the WC 1/4 final from 87. Yes a few of that Welsh team went to League - but not all, and not all straight away.

Of those you mention - Dai Young and Bateman went in 1990 and came back. David Bishop had been marginalised by the WRU and selectorsand went north in 88 when it was apparent he woul dnever be selected for Wales. Jiffy was another who felt marginalised by the blazers in Cardiff and joined Widnes in a huff.

In the end the money they could get in League was more than that paid by Welsh clubs and Wales in "expenses" and did not rob you of a whole team. The WRU was much more complicit in the problems than various RL recruiters.

LondonTiger wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
After the World Cup we pretty much lost an entire team, scrum halves Jonathan Griffiths and Dave Bishop, props David Young, and Stuart Evans, centres Allan Bateman and John Deveraux, winger Adrian Hadley, fly half Jonathan Davies, back rowers Richard Webster, Mark Jones, Paul Moriarty etc. A country like Wales simply can't lose their entire first 15 and not suffer for it. This is just off the top of my head there were probably a lot more who left too.

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/21981.html

Dire match, but the WC 1/4 final from 87. Yes a few of that Welsh team went to League - but not all, and not all straight away.

Of those you mention - Dai Young and Bateman went in 1990 and came back. David Bishop had been marginalised by the WRU and selectorsand went north in 88 when it was apparent he woul dnever be selected for Wales. Jiffy was another who felt marginalised by the blazers in Cardiff and joined Widnes in a huff.

In the end the money they could get in League was more than that paid by Welsh clubs and Wales in "expenses" and did not rob you of a whole team. The WRU was much more complicit in the problems than various RL recruiters.

At least half of that team went, and then we had players like Thorburn retiring becuase hw knew the writing was on the wall, what you are missing though is the fact that most of the next generation that could have replaced them went as well. From about 1988 to 1994/5 we must have lost about fifty players all told to league, we had players like Byron Haywood playing for Wales ffs.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The biggest loses for me were Bateman, Evans and Webstar.

Jiffy was a far better league player than he ever was a Union player and we still had some life out of Quinnell and Gibbs.

Jiffy was still young when he went North and was still developing even then he was the best ten in the northern hemisphere. Anyway one of the reasons he went was because he didnt get the lions captaincy offered to him and he had a pout.

He was also a vicious dirty little turd to play against. great player though.

LondonTiger wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:
After the World Cup we pretty much lost an entire team, scrum halves Jonathan Griffiths and Dave Bishop, props David Young, and Stuart Evans, centres Allan Bateman and John Deveraux, winger Adrian Hadley, fly half Jonathan Davies, back rowers Richard Webster, Mark Jones, Paul Moriarty etc. A country like Wales simply can't lose their entire first 15 and not suffer for it. This is just off the top of my head there were probably a lot more who left too.

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/21981.html

Dire match, but the WC 1/4 final from 87. Yes a few of that Welsh team went to League - but not all, and not all straight away.

Of those you mention - Dai Young and Bateman went in 1990 and came back. David Bishop had been marginalised by the WRU and selectorsand went north in 88 when it was apparent he woul dnever be selected for Wales. Jiffy was another who felt marginalised by the blazers in Cardiff and joined Widnes in a huff.

In the end the money they could get in League was more than that paid by Welsh clubs and Wales in "expenses" and did not rob you of a whole team. The WRU was much more complicit in the problems than various RL recruiters.

Bishops biggest problem was himself. The WRU didnt really have muchh choice but to marginalise him given what a nutjob he was. However best player other than Edwards Ive seen. Makes Mike Phillips look somewhat wet.

Wales were not terribly good throughout the 80s. The various internecine wars between clubs (Neath v Pontypool v Cardiff), bungling by WRU etc left it in a very bad place. Yes a lot of players went north, but this was more a symptom than the cause. Many of these players left due to feeling under-appreciated in Wales rather than the enticements on offer.

It often seemed as though the WRU (similar to RFU) would rather select people because they were the right sort than because they could play.

Of the NH countries England reacted best to the advent of professionalism because they started to put their house in order after the dreadful world cup in 1987.

It can be argued that it was at least 10 years later that things really started to change in Wales.

LondonTiger wrote:Wales were not terribly good throughout the 80s. The various internecine wars between clubs (Neath v Pontypool v Cardiff), bungling by WRU etc left it in a very bad place. Yes a lot of players went north, but this was more a symptom than the cause. Many of these players left due to feeling under-appreciated in Wales rather than the enticements on offer.

It often seemed as though the WRU (similar to RFU) would rather select people because they were the right sort than because they could play.

Of the NH countries England reacted best to the advent of professionalism because they started to put their house in order after the dreadful world cup in 1987.

It can be argued that it was at least 10 years later that things really started to change in Wales.

By welsh standards we werent very good but look at the results and they were considerably better than the 90s.

1980 - 2nd - Ringergate cost us a slam.
1981 - 2nd
1982 - 4th
1983 - 3rd
1984 - 3rd
1985 - 3rd
1986 - 3rd
1987 - 4th (third in the world)
1988- 1st
1989 - 4th

The problem in the 80s was as the team of the seventies retired, Wales did not have players ready to step up into the team. We let some old stagers go on far too long and didnt adapt to the game changes for wales in the eighties read England post 2003. By the time we had a group of players who could compete, from 86 onwards it was a neverending flow of players going North. Partly a symptom of the Big Five and the amatuerism of our governing body. However a much more important point to remember is a lot of these boys were becoming unelmployed. we had players who had been on strke for a year in the early eighties, mass unemployment, social cohesiveness breaking down it was no suprise players took a fast buck.

Rather than a fast buck, you could argue they took a buck.

I kind of ignored employment issues, as the peeing contest between Scargill and the milk snatcher brings back too many bad memories (my mum's family were Yorkshire mining stock)

TycroesOsprey wrote:By welsh standards we werent very good but look at the results and they were considerably better than the 90s.

1980 - 2nd - Ringergate cost us a slam.
1981 - 2nd
1982 - 4th
1983 - 3rd
1984 - 3rd
1985 - 3rd
1986 - 3rd
1987 - 4th (third in the world)
1988- 1st
1989 - 4th

The problem in the 80s was as the team of the seventies retired, Wales did not have players ready to step up into the team. We let some old stagers go on far too long and didnt adapt to the game changes for wales in the eighties read England post 2003. By the time we had a group of players who could compete, from 86 onwards it was a neverending flow of players going North. Partly a symptom of the Big Five and the amatuerism of our governing body. However a much more important point to remember is a lot of these boys were becoming unelmployed. we had players who had been on strke for a year in the early eighties, mass unemployment, social cohesiveness breaking down it was no suprise players took a fast buck.

Dont forget that during this time it was the 5 Nations not 6, which puts a different slant on the final standings. Too often only MID Table (3rd) with a couple of 1 from bottom...

I remember the 70s, and the 80s & 90s was not a good time for Welsh International Rugby.

The 90s were so bad that they made the 80s look like the 70s.

Have to agree with the original post. Wales would have done better in 95. Wales like a number of other countries was effected in the 90's. We also suffered through losses in key backline positions. I'd hate to think what the Aussies would have been like if there wasn't a constant stream of school boys going to league.

How would England have gone if the split hadn't occured. I guess we'll never know. They would have been much stronger but may not have dominated. The AB's only lost one game in the first decade of 1900. That was the controversal 3-0 loss in Wales (an understrength AB side without the Dan Carter and John Kirwin of the day). The losses in NZ during 1908 are still amongst the very biggest ever suffered by a British side. A few AB's and a bunch of provincial players then turned professional, went to the UK, learned league and beat Great Britain in the Test series in 1908. Same could be said for the boks later with their 3-4-1 scrum and the likes of Bernie Osler and Dannie Craven.

Although I love union, I'm glad of league. Many of players came back from league better players (e.g. Bateman). League heavily influenced union backlines, via Australia in the 80's and 90's and we were better for it. Jiffy was a legend. Could he tackle when he came back, I know he struggled before he left.

TycroesOsprey wrote:The 90s were so bad that they made the 80s look like the 70s.

Though to be fair, when I toured South Wales in the 80s they were still wearing flares

blackcanelion wrote:Have to agree with the original post. Wales would have done better in 95. Wales like a number of other countries was effected in the 90's. We also suffered through losses in key backline positions. I'd hate to think what the Aussies would have been like if there wasn't a constant stream of school boys going to league.

How would England have gone if the split hadn't occured. I guess we'll never know. They would have been much stronger but may not have dominated. The AB's only lost one game in the first decade of 1900. That was the 3-0 loss in Wales (where the blacks tried to cheat their way to victory but deans came up short). The losses in NZ during 1908 are still amongst the very biggest ever suffered by a British side. A few AB's and a bunch of provincial players then turned professional, went to the UK, learned league and beat Great Britain in the Test series in 1908. Same could be said for the boks later with their 3-4-1 scrum and the likes of Bernie Osler and Dannie Craven.

Although I love union, I'm glad of league. Many of players came back from league better players (e.g. Bateman). League heavily influenced union backlines, via Australia in the 80's and 90's and we were better for it. Jiffy was a legend. Could he tackle when he came back, I know he struggled before he left.

There fixed that for you

Half of the Ebbw Vale rugby team went north during the eighties, players who would never get into the Welsh side, but were better than the ones who had to make the grade because of the players who went for employment. Players like Shaun Woods, who is only known around here and the clubs he went to, but even when the lesser known players went it was worst than some people outside of Wales realise. Our main stream club sides were starting to be like a villiage side, it was a case of turn up for pre-season training and if you are good enough you would get a game. I would say from about 1988 to about 2003 we were in the dark times, we were lulled out of it a little when Graham Henry brought a load of foreign players with dodgy ancestory to our side, players like Peter Rogers, Shane Howarth, Brett Sinkinson, Andy Marinos to name but a few, but then after all the furore of that and the players got older we had to rely on our home grown players and we did not see the fruit of these labours until 2003 when we gave the then Mighty England the fright of their lives and took the game to the All Blacks, since then it has been a slow and steady upward curve. As if it could go any other way as we were at rock bottom.

LordDowlais wrote:Half of the Ebbw Vale rugby team went north during the eighties, players who would never get into the Welsh side, but were better than the ones who had to make the grade because of the players who went for employment. Players like Shaun Woods, who is only known around here and the clubs he went to, but even when the lesser known players went it was worst than some people outside of Wales realise. Our main stream club sides were starting to be like a villiage side, it was a case of turn up for pre-season training and if you are good enough you would get a game. I would say from about 1988 to about 2003 we were in the dark times, we were lulled out of it a little when Graham Henry brought a load of foreign players with dodgy ancestory to our side, players like Peter Rogers, Shane Howarth, Brett Sinkinson, Andy Marinos to name but a few, but then after all the furore of that and the players got older we had to rely on our home grown players and we did not see the fruit of these labours until 2003 when we gave the them Mighty England the fright of their lives and took the game to the All Blacks, since then it has been a slow and steady upward curve. As if it could go any other way as we were at rock bottom.

hmmm about that upward curve, only one thing to say - Gareth Jenkins. it was all downhill with him in charge.

TycroesOsprey wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Half of the Ebbw Vale rugby team went north during the eighties, players who would never get into the Welsh side, but were better than the ones who had to make the grade because of the players who went for employment. Players like Shaun Woods, who is only known around here and the clubs he went to, but even when the lesser known players went it was worst than some people outside of Wales realise. Our main stream club sides were starting to be like a villiage side, it was a case of turn up for pre-season training and if you are good enough you would get a game. I would say from about 1988 to about 2003 we were in the dark times, we were lulled out of it a little when Graham Henry brought a load of foreign players with dodgy ancestory to our side, players like Peter Rogers, Shane Howarth, Brett Sinkinson, Andy Marinos to name but a few, but then after all the furore of that and the players got older we had to rely on our home grown players and we did not see the fruit of these labours until 2003 when we gave the them Mighty England the fright of their lives and took the game to the All Blacks, since then it has been a slow and steady upward curve. As if it could go any other way as we were at rock bottom.

hmmm about that upward curve, only one thing to say - Gareth Jenkins. it was all downhill with him in charge.

We were still better than in the eighties or nineties. During the dark times we were loosing to Romania and Canada at home getting shafted ninety odd to thirteen by the Bocks in Pretoria. My god, even thinking of those days makes me shudder.

Yes I try not to think about it either espescially as I was living in twickenham in the 90s but I would point out fiji in 2007 was on par if not worse than Romania or canada. Whilst the humiliation dished out in twickenham pre world cup was as devestating as the hammering away to the boks.

Worst coaches in wales history, Waldron, Hansen, Jenkins.

This WC warm up for Wales under Gareth Jenkins was not good:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25490.html

Though theoretically that was Wales second string at the time, so this one when Hansen was in charge is probably worse:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/24494.html

LondonTiger wrote:This WC warm up for Wales under Gareth Jenkins was not good:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25490.html

Though theoretically that was Wales second string at the time, so this one when Hansen was in charge is probably worse:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/24494.html

Well who was our first choice team going into the 2003 RWC? Hansen had his ideas and played his team in cardiff match, and thehe early group stages and they struggled. He played his seond team against the All blacks containing players who openly disagreed with him his tactics, his understanding of the game and his selection and the gave the All Blacks an almighty fright and forced him to pick them for the quarters. He picked Shane through gritted teeth after that having been shown up by the winger privately and publicly. Other than Waldron hes the worst we had in my opinion.

slartibartfast wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Given that the rules on payment for Welsh players were bent to ensure the largely working class players didn't ditch post-1895 I wouldn't complain too much if I was you.

Substantiate.

?

well you've made a comment that has no real back up. I very much doubt you can prove it. I know Jiffy came out in the 90's and said it but it wasn't just Welsh rugby that bent the rules.