JWC - Eng v SA

First topic message reminder :

England make 6 changes to the team:

http://www.rfu.com/News/2012/June/NewsArticles/110612_20s_team_SA.aspx

Hood83 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Very good second half by SA.

England's performance highlighted the issues we have quite nicely. We develop athletes rather than rugby players. So many core skills just not present.

I was too depressed to write anything last night - still rather shocked.

Unfortunately, this year we didn't even manage athletes. Awful across the park.

Well done to South Africa. To England - I don't know where to start, but this the worst coached, conditioned and talented an England side to have played at this level. I don't think a single player will make a serious step up, and if they do, it is an awful indictment of the quality of the Prem. I don't think i'm prone to hyperbole, but this was shameful, inept, gutless.

That is a bit much! They are still a talented bunch of players, they just lacked the application on the day. This is still the team (bar a few notable absentees) that won the U20 Six Nations. Some of them have already stepped and done quite well (Tom Heathcote and Will Addison spring to mind). Out of this lot I could see Kyle Sinkler, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ben Nutley, George Merrick, Ryan Mills, Sam Hill and Billy Vunipola (I'm willing to give Sisi the benefit of the doubt too) having good long premiership careers. During the tournament I thought Sinkler and Cowan-Dickie came through with particular credit. There also a lot of younger guys too like Dom Barrow and Anthony Watson who will be there next year.

It wasn't great on the day, but lets not overreact. This England team was rated by many and SHOULD have done better.

Cumbrian wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Very good second half by SA.

England's performance highlighted the issues we have quite nicely. We develop athletes rather than rugby players. So many core skills just not present.

I was too depressed to write anything last night - still rather shocked.

Unfortunately, this year we didn't even manage athletes. Awful across the park.

Well done to South Africa. To England - I don't know where to start, but this the worst coached, conditioned and talented an England side to have played at this level. I don't think a single player will make a serious step up, and if they do, it is an awful indictment of the quality of the Prem. I don't think i'm prone to hyperbole, but this was shameful, inept, gutless.

That is a bit much! They are still a talented bunch of players, they just lacked the application on the day. This is still the team (bar a few notable absentees) that won the U20 Six Nations. Some of them have already stepped and done quite well (Tom Heathcote and Will Addison spring to mind). Out of this lot I could see Kyle Sinkler, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ben Nutley, George Merrick, Ryan Mills, Sam Hill and Billy Vunipola (I'm willing to give Sisi the benefit of the doubt too) having good long premiership careers. During the tournament I thought Sinkler and Cowan-Dickie came through with particular credit. There also a lot of younger guys too like Dom Barrow and Anthony Watson who will be there next year.

It wasn't great on the day, but lets not overreact. This England team was rated by many and SHOULD have done better.

What can I say Cumbrian, i love a good moan . Honestly, i don't really rate any of that lot. Maybe Cowan Dickie will make it, Sinckler too, but international standard I very much doubt. Vunipola and Sisi are lumps, that is all. Barrow and Merrick look mediocre, Nutley is a poor man's Moody. Watson can run but not much else. I've always been tempted to think they'll iron out the kinks, but it just doesn't seem to happen.

I know they're young and I should cut them some slack, but compare their basic skills to those of their peers. Atrocious. This team is a perfect example of why our previous success at this level has been put down to (slightly unfairly) our physical advantages and nothing else. For their size, players like Vunipola and Sisi get nowhere. This team had no drive or ambition, it's been spineless.

Each year we beat the Saffas or Oz they've had one or two players who looked head and shoulders above the rest, and have duly gone on to shine at a higher level. We on the other hand have a tonne of middling players, some of which go on to do well at Prem level. We keep thinking that people like Lawes who have come through and done ok shows the system is working, but how many of these players have come through and become a top 3 international player like Pocock?

I'm feeling glum Cumbrian, sorry, i just worry at the acceptance of mediocrity within English rugby.

This was a bad performance by a decent side, no reason to fear for the future of English rugby.

We should be optimistic about the current crop of youngsters in English rugby. There is a vast pool of 18-25 year old talent. We don't need all of those to become world class players to be able to cobble together a decent side. We could probably name 3 or 4 young players in every position who are playing well in the premiership, and have the potential to make it to the very top.

You ask have we produced a Pocock? Maybe not in the same position, but Croft, Foden, Cole, Care and more all came through the international age groups around the same time as Pocock, and they are very strong international players. I think the system is doing ok.

Hood83 wrote:
To England - I don't know where to start, but this the worst coached, conditioned and talented an England side to have played at this level. I don't think a single player will make a serious step up, and if they do, it is an awful indictment of the quality of the Prem. I don't think i'm prone to hyperbole, but this was shameful, inept, gutless.

Complete nonsense.

DaveM wrote:

Hood83 wrote:
To England - I don't know where to start, but this the worst coached, conditioned and talented an England side to have played at this level. I don't think a single player will make a serious step up, and if they do, it is an awful indictment of the quality of the Prem. I don't think i'm prone to hyperbole, but this was shameful, inept, gutless.

Complete nonsense.

Go on...

I can concede that there are a few rough diamonds, as there often are at this level, but the majority look bereft of skill or ambition. Also, some of the conditions weren't conducing to fantastic rugby. They were still shocking.

Conducive, obviously.

Jeffwinger. It's true that a fair few have kicked on, but this year's crop is tosh. Maybe they'll all turn out grand and i'll look a fool, fine, but this looked the least professional collection I've seen. Croft, Cole, Foden and Care are fine players of international quality. But i'm not sure they are in the top 3 for their position, possibly Cole?

I agree that a number will go on to play with some distinction in the Prem, i just question the extent to which we should see that alone as a cause for celebration. There is a still a lack of conversion from talented tyro to world class player. IMO

The thing is, these guys are not just lumps with no technique and only power. If you look at the games they lost (France in the Six Nations and S.A this week.), these games are when they couldn’t play their natural offloading game and got drawn into arm wrestles. The same nearly happened against Ireland in the mud last week. When they click, they’ve got really good handling skills and cut really good lines. Look at the Scotland and Italy games in the Six Nations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_7OZLk8bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmcbQ3wCauM&feature=fvwrel

I still think you’re being harsh on individuals too, remember you’re calling a 19 year old kid ‘A poor man’s Moody’. Give him a chance! To me that is the problem though, people are impatient.

I’ll admit that I don’t think these guys are quite as good as some of the recent generations. But I still think that a lot of them will go on to be very good professional players.

Hood83 wrote:

I agree that a number will go on to play with some distinction in the Prem, i just question the extent to which we should see that alone as a cause for celebration. There is a still a lack of conversion from talented tyro to world class player. IMO

Not all players develop at the same rate; some grow into better players later on in their career. A good Premiership player can develop into an international standard player with time an experience. I think having a fresh supply of young and talented players trickling through to the Premiership sides is vital.

Not every player that comes through the U20’s program will go on to be an international player, it’s the same with all nations, there is a lot to be said for good club men.

A bad performance doesn't make them bad players.

It was a very disappointing performance and at this age grade England should expect better (nowadays!) but these guys will know they didn't perform and hopefully learn from the experience.

Cumbrian wrote:The thing is, these guys are not just lumps with no technique and only power. If you look at the games they lost (France in the Six Nations and S.A this week.), these games are when they couldn’t play their natural offloading game and got drawn into arm wrestles. The same nearly happened against Ireland in the mud last week. When they click, they’ve got really good handling skills and cut really good lines. Look at the Scotland and Italy games in the Six Nations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_7OZLk8bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmcbQ3wCauM&feature=fvwrel

I still think you’re being harsh on individuals too, remember you’re calling a 19 year old kid ‘A poor man’s Moody’. Give him a chance! To me that is the problem though, people are impatient.

I’ll admit that I don’t think these guys are quite as good as some of the recent generations. But I still think that a lot of them will go on to be very good professional players.

Hood83 wrote:

I agree that a number will go on to play with some distinction in the Prem, i just question the extent to which we should see that alone as a cause for celebration. There is a still a lack of conversion from talented tyro to world class player. IMO

Not all players develop at the same rate; some grow into better players later on in their career. A good Premiership player can develop into an international standard player with time an experience. I think having a fresh supply of young and talented players trickling through to the Premiership sides is vital.

Not every player that comes through the U20’s program will go on to be an international player, it’s the same with all nations, there is a lot to be said for good club men.

Fair points, i was probably overreacting. I stand by the comment that this is a worse year than previous versions, and I remain unconvinced by a lot of the players. But you're right, they're young, some will kick on later, some won't. I do think we can expect more from them though, and probably need to if we want to get anywhere near the ABs on a regular basis (some chance!)

The impatience point is also fair, but I think it's the frustration of seeing countries with small pools of players identify them and develop them early and effectively. I also stand by the comment that, while we may have improved in this area in recent years, we are still miles off the SH teams in this regard. And i think the Prem is a very poor place for them to develop to become world class players, unlike the S15.

Anyway, i'm less splenetic today, deep breaths, deeeeep breaths

Cumbrian wrote:The thing is, these guys are not just lumps with no technique and only power. If you look at the games they lost (France in the Six Nations and S.A this week.), these games are when they couldn’t play their natural offloading game and got drawn into arm wrestles. The same nearly happened against Ireland in the mud last week. When they click, they’ve got really good handling skills and cut really good lines. Look at the Scotland and Italy games in the Six Nations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj_7OZLk8bw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmcbQ3wCauM&feature=fvwrel

I still think you’re being harsh on individuals too, remember you’re calling a 19 year old kid ‘A poor man’s Moody’. Give him a chance! To me that is the problem though, people are impatient.

I’ll admit that I don’t think these guys are quite as good as some of the recent generations. But I still think that a lot of them will go on to be very good professional players.

Hood83 wrote:

I agree that a number will go on to play with some distinction in the Prem, i just question the extent to which we should see that alone as a cause for celebration. There is a still a lack of conversion from talented tyro to world class player. IMO

Not all players develop at the same rate; some grow into better players later on in their career. A good Premiership player can develop into an international standard player with time an experience. I think having a fresh supply of young and talented players trickling through to the Premiership sides is vital.

Not every player that comes through the U20’s program will go on to be an international player, it’s the same with all nations, there is a lot to be said for good club men.

P.S - Thanks for replying with more than 'complete nonsense', even if that was your thinking. Appreciated.

Hood83 wrote:Conducive, obviously.

Jeffwinger. It's true that a fair few have kicked on, but this year's crop is tosh. Maybe they'll all turn out grand and i'll look a fool, fine, but this looked the least professional collection I've seen. Croft, Cole, Foden and Care are fine players of international quality. But i'm not sure they are in the top 3 for their position, possibly Cole?

I agree that a number will go on to play with some distinction in the Prem, i just question the extent to which we should see that alone as a cause for celebration. There is a still a lack of conversion from talented tyro to world class player. IMO

That's all a bit over the top.

Players like Ford and Harrison (Tigers) Farrel(Saracens)Seymour (Sale) weren't even at this comp as they're so good they're clubs require them.

Add to that players like Sinckler, Walker, Merrick who've all played for Quins and looked good and all is not lost mate.

This team wasn't as good as some of the last but I imagine if we'd had a few of those first players I listed and a better coach we would have gone further.