Ulster squad additions

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The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I personally think that for the success of ulster's progression plan, it is VITAL that Paddy Jackson proves himself as a top level performer this year.

Sorry Clive but this is exactly the sort of expectation that Jackson doesn't need.

It's not his fault that Ulster have ignored the 10 jersey for half a dozen years, and are surprised they're not a complete team.
It's not his fault that Humphreys has been released and he has not been given a structured introduction to the team.
It's not his fault that the IRFU have a ridiculous 'no NIQ for Ulster policy' when they allowed Leinster to sign Berquist to block both McKinley and Madigan.
Neither is it his fault that if Pienaar isn't playing he'll be cast adrift, trying to acclimatise to the higher level outside the headless Paul Marshall.

This coming season Ulster have 14 proven players and Paddy Jackson, who will need Pienaar inside him. Therefore for the success of Ulster's progression plan, it is VITAL that Ruan Pienaar proves himself to be capable of nursing a rookie, stays fit and on good enough form to run the game.

That's been my opinion for some time and after much though I decided to put my trust in the UR management who I hope know what they are doing. We cannot be nursing a rookie on our 1stXV and for what it's worth it's a crying shame we had to do it in the Heino semi-final and final. Jackson has to stand up and be counted and use the experience surrounding him, not rely on it. I hope, I really, really hope.

If I were the IRFU I would have offered Ulster a deal; you can sign an NIQ 10 if you release either John Afoa or Ruan Pienaar early from their contract.

If I were them, no way I would let one province have NIQ players at 9, 10 and tighthead. It's too many NIQ players in the really key technical positions on the park. And it's now been established, Aukster, that that is the IRFU policy. That we can't sign an NIQ 10. And given who we already have in the squad, I'm inclined to agree with them.

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I personally think that for the success of ulster's progression plan, it is VITAL that Paddy Jackson proves himself as a top level performer this year.

Sorry Clive but this is exactly the sort of expectation that Jackson doesn't need.

It's not his fault that Ulster have ignored the 10 jersey for half a dozen years, and are surprised they're not a complete team.
It's not his fault that Humphreys has been released and he has not been given a structured introduction to the team.
It's not his fault that the IRFU have a ridiculous 'no NIQ for Ulster policy' when they allowed Leinster to sign Berquist to block both McKinley and Madigan.
Neither is it his fault that if Pienaar isn't playing he'll be cast adrift, trying to acclimatise to the higher level outside the headless Paul Marshall.

This coming season Ulster have 14 proven players and Paddy Jackson, who will need Pienaar inside him. Therefore for the success of Ulster's progression plan, it is VITAL that Ruan Pienaar proves himself to be capable of nursing a rookie, stays fit and on good enough form to run the game.

I'm basing this on the fact that the IRFU will only allow one NIQ for either 9 or 10. If Pienaar doesnt stay on, we will have to stick with Jackson and get another NIQ 9, or get an NIQ 10 and play one of our young 9s or bring Porter back.

I was merely saying that I dont think getting a better 10 than Jackson will be helpful in the long term. We need to hope he steps up to the plate like Gilroy has.

clive is spot on. Even if we could get an NIQ 10 it would leave us really exposed down the line when Pienaar and the NIQ leave at the same time.

Where is this NIQ thing going to end up though? Will there be a point when they will be completely phased out? And we will see all irish XVs for all the provinces?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Where is this NIQ thing going to end up though? Will there be a point when they will be completely phased out? And we will see all irish XVs for all the provinces?

I can't ever see that happening Rory. At the end of the day money counts. If the provinces were to become less successful (and crowd numbers drastically reduced) due to a lack of quality homegrown players there would be mutiny.

I definitely think thats the IRFUs goal Rory. I also don't really think it's an entirely realistic goal at least in the short-term. It will be hard to keep competitive with the financially unfettered French clubs and it depends on all our homegrown players wanting to stay their entire careers in Ireland as well as not getting injured.

Leinster show it is possible, only Nacewa and Strauss are key NIQs for them. But after their players have won Heineken Cup after Heineken Cup you can't go any higher in the provincial game. What happens if/when Sean O'Brien, Rob Kearney, Johnny Sexton et al. decide they need a new challenge? They'll need more NIQs to stay at the same level.

The thing is, with the number of tests there are now, there are long periods of the season where we're missing our players. It's all well and good to try and model ourselves after Super Rugby in having almost entirely homegrown squads but a) our calendar is set up totally differently b) Super Rugby teams only compete against other homegrown squads.

The biggest roadblock is the English and French clubs. We have to keep up with them so we can't do what we really want, which is to have entirely homegrown squads.

No I don't think it is very realistic either, but I am not really sure where this whole NIQ thing is going. How many more positions will the IRFU demand to be irish qualified?

Friendlies confirmed;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/10576.php

This was sort of already known but it's now official. And rodders! The pre-season friendly against Leicester is a Saturday afternoon game.

Will Ferris be likely to feature in these games?

I doubt it to be honest. Maybe he'll get 40 minutes in one if he's fit, thats what happened last time he missed a summer tour. He and Best were restricted to coming off at halftime in our last friendly of pre-season by the IRFU. And that was when his knee was a lot better.

More importantly Notch, when is the Ulster fun day ????
I want to set the child on Sparky again, the last time he tried to take his head off

He seems to be playing less and less these days. Not good signs.

Notch wrote:Friendlies confirmed;

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/10576.php

This was sort of already known but it's now official. And rodders! The pre-season friendly against Leicester is a Saturday afternoon game.

Yee ha!

Pete330v2 wrote:More importantly Notch, when is the Ulster fun day ????
I want to set the child on Sparky again, the last time he tried to take his head off

They didn't have the same format last year Pete for some reason

1F's time in professional rugby is going to be cut short and his gametime has to suffer if we can hope to have him playing at all as long-term as possible. His knee can only be maintained for so long until the medical advice will tell him to hang up the boots. It makes me sad to say this but it's just how things are I'm afraid.

Pete330v2 wrote:More importantly Notch, when is the Ulster fun day ????
I want to set the child on Sparky again, the last time he tried to take his head off

Not a clue, don't even know if there will be one. There wasn't one last season mainly because all the 'big stars' were away with their international sides. I hope they do have one, its always looks great especially for the kids.

Rava wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:More importantly Notch, when is the Ulster fun day ????
I want to set the child on Sparky again, the last time he tried to take his head off

They didn't have the same format last year Pete for some reason

I noticed that Rava and it was for season ticket holders only. I'll be hoping they return to the previous format as it was a cracking little event. My boy needs to be set free on the Ravers turf

Notch wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:More importantly Notch, when is the Ulster fun day ????
I want to set the child on Sparky again, the last time he tried to take his head off

Not a clue, don't even know if there will be one. There wasn't one last season mainly because all the 'big stars' were away with their international sides. I hope they do have one, its always looks great especially for the kids.

It's also a great chance for folks like us to meet up whilst being 100% sober

Pete330v2 wrote:1F's time in professional rugby is going to be cut short and his gametime has to suffer if we can hope to have him playing at all as long-term as possible. His knee can only be maintained for so long until the medical advice will tell him to hang up the boots. It makes me sad to say this but it's just how things are I'm afraid.

The medical advice isn't far from that already. But he's like O'Driscoll; he would do anything to be fit to play. He would play through any injury or any amount of pain. A less driven man would have already walked away faced with his chronic knee problems.

Thats why I see us signing a top NIQ blindside sooner or later. If not this year, next year or the year after. It will get to the point where Ferris can only play 10 games a season and he'll basically play exclusively for Ireland and maybe the odd run-out for Ulster in the Heineken Cup.

Ulster will begin their 2012/13 preparations with a tie against French Top 14 side Bayonne on Thursday 9th August. The fixture is part of a five day pre-season training camp in the south of France and will be played at Parc des Sports Jean Dauger (8pm kick-off).

I leave the South of France on 6th

Oof, bad luck Rava!

I hate to think what Ferris' knee will be like when he's 50.

Notch wrote:If I were the IRFU I would have offered Ulster a deal;
you can sign an NIQ 10 if you release either John Afoa or Ruan Pienaar
early from their contract.

If I were them, no way I would let one
province have NIQ players at 9, 10 and tighthead. It's too many NIQ
players in the really key technical positions on the park. And it's now
been established, Aukster, that that is the IRFU policy. That we can't
sign an NIQ 10. And given who we already have in the squad, I'm inclined
to agree with them.

I'd say there are plenty of key positions on the team. Is Hooker any
less important or fullback? Ireland supposedly suffer because they don't
have a genuine openside - is that therefore a key position to the IRFU?
Why on earth would the IRFU allow any province to sign any NIQ
backrowers when first they need an openside, second Ferris will need
replaced, and thirdly the academies are producing more backrowers than
they know what to do with.

I have no doubt that Marshall has benefited from Pienaar, Tuohy from Muller and Fitzpatrick/Macklin/McAllister from Afoa. Part of the benefit is the transference of knowledge, but another part is not having to bear the full weight of responsibility before they're ready.

Sexton benefited from having Contepomi ahead of him, at the very least
because he was able to star in a semi-final with zero expectation. There
was no weight of expectation because Felipe was injured and therefore
Cheika had no option. If Sexton had been the only first choice outhalf
at 20 when he was going through his bad patch and still learning the
game he could very well have given up entirely. How would that have
benefited Irish rugby? Logie has confirmed that Ulster are not allowed
to sign a NIQ 10, but I can see no good reason for the IRFU to take such
a draconian stance, and somewhat hypocritical since they allowed
Leinster to sign a NIQ 10.

Since 10 is such a key position I don't expect any more from Ulster in the PRO12 than this year

I would guess the IRFU don't see openside as a problem for us at all. Whether thats right or wrong, make your own mind up. Same with hooker- even the same with loosehead and lock, other positions we struggle with. There are young players getting gametime there in the Heineken Cup.

I'd say the major succession worries for them are O'Gara, BOD and Mike Ross. A team is unlikely to be allowed to have, say, an NIQ 3 AND a 10. I'm actually very surprised they allowed Munster to sign Casey Laulala given the amount of time Earls has spent at 13 in green and red this past year. I can see that being the next biggest NIQ controversy once BOD is past it, or at least I could if the province was Leinster or Ulster.

I think they know ROG is going to retire and they want a young Irish 10 to be getting gametime in big, big games so they aren't exposed if Sexton gets injured or loses form the way we were on very thin ice after Humphreys retired. They aren't going to make Munster drop ROG for Hanrahan/Keatley or Leinster drop Sexton whilst they are still in the national squad. Connacht just signed Dan Parks.

That leaves Ulster. That leaves Paddy Jackson. It's a big picture decision to give Jackson the starting shirt with a significant eye on the national team.

They give with one hand- the money we need to sign Afoa, Pienaar, Muller- but all that IRFU funding doesn't come without a catch. As long as we're subsidised by the national team we'll be subservient to the needs of the national team, our main responsibility will be developing players for Ireland not winning Heineken Cups and the influence of Dublin on our squad will be there. Fact of life.

So I guess we might as well get behind the young man and hope this is a breakthrough season for him. I know everyone else will- ie. our sponsors and CEO...

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:You would think that one's a no brainer... its a sad reflection on our society that it's even a topic for debate

Tell me about it, I nearly screamed last week when Wendy asked "So, the Euro 2012s, will you be supporting the Republic or England?"

It's very sad and it makes me very, very mad.

Me too..... I mean support the country which employs our best players or the one that poaches them... .......

I was more referring to your original post about GAA/Rugby than clives reply rodders. Sorry if that was unclear.

Although I do think it's sad people would support England over an Irish side, given we are part of the island of Ireland. But thats hardly surprising given the way our society is.

I would never support the South in football. Nor England. And that has nothing to do with society or background. You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

Notch wrote:Oof, bad luck Rava!

I hate to think what Ferris' knee will be like when he's 50.

I suspect by the time Fez is 50 his knee will be titanium and polyethylene!

I should probably clarify that my comment above to Notch regarding the soccerball thing was in jest...... I have no (serious) comment to make on the matter .....

And yet you would be happy to support them in rugby, where we have one team. A united Ireland is almost less of a viable possibility than it ever has been. It's quite simply not something people want anymore, apart from an ever diminishing minority. But we're still to small an Island not to co-operate across that border on a lot of things. Tourism, for example. Infrastructure like motorways. And Sport- rugby proves it, even if our national rugby team is in the doldrums. Just look at the disparity between the level players from Northern Ireland get to play at in football and rugby.

And, I would add the only Northern Irish players in with a shot of competitive action in the Euros are in the Republic of Ireland squad. Obviously for some people thats a good reason not to support them. But I'm going to wish success on a sportsman from Northern Ireland whatever flag they choose to stand under.

I'm not saying we force a United Ireland football team if there's no desire to see it. That would be authoritarian and wrong. But I'm going to Stand Up For Ulstermen everywhere and there a lot more in green than white!

To be honest Jay, I think it's best we try to restrict comment on this on the thread because its off-topic. But you're welcome to PM me if you want to respond

MrsP wrote:

Notch wrote:Oof, bad luck Rava!

I hate to think what Ferris' knee will be like when he's 50.

I suspect by the time Fez is 50 his knee will be titanium and polyethylene!

And hopefully he will be able to run at 60mph with an eye that has a 20:1 zoom lens and infrared capabilities while his limbs all have the equivalent power of a bulldozer.

Just like yer man here

Spoiler:

Notch wrote:To be honest Jay, I think it's best we try to restrict comment on this on the thread because its off-topic. But you're welcome to PM me if you want to respond

I'm not really a huge Ireland supporter to be honest, but yeah slightly off topic. Takes little now that the season is over. Just leave her where she sits I think.

My real interest is who has Ulster signed, what position and when will we find out.

JayMaster3000 wrote:

Notch wrote:To be honest Jay, I think it's best we try to restrict comment on this on the thread because its off-topic. But you're welcome to PM me if you want to respond

I'm not really a huge Ireland supporter to be honest, but yeah slightly off topic. Takes little now that the season is over. Just leave her where she sits I think.

My real interest is who has Ulster signed, what position and when will we find out.

Rava wrote:

MrsP wrote:

Notch wrote:Oof, bad luck Rava!

I hate to think what Ferris' knee will be like when he's 50.

I suspect by the time Fez is 50 his knee will be titanium and polyethylene!

And hopefully he will be able to run at 60mph with an eye that has a 20:1 zoom lens and infrared capabilities while his limbs all have the equivalent power of a bulldozer.

Just like yer man here

Spoiler:

Ah sure he already has all that....

Notch wrote:They give with one hand- the money we need to sign Afoa,
Pienaar, Muller- but all that IRFU funding doesn't come without a catch.
As long as we're subsidised by the national team we'll be subservient
to the needs of the national team, our main responsibility will be
developing players for Ireland not winning Heineken Cups and the
influence of Dublin on our squad will be there. Fact of life.

So I
guess we might as well get behind the young man and hope this is a
breakthrough season for him. I know everyone else will- ie. our sponsors
and CEO...

I agree with most of what you're saying Notch, except the bit about the IRFU seeing the big picture.

Right now Jackson isn't ready to start for Ireland, and the IRFU have
both Sexton and O'Gara for a couple of years. Keatley is next in line
from an IRFU pov as he was obviously allowed to move and so develop his
game as an understudy to ROG at Munster. Why is it ok for Keatley to be an understudy but not Jackson?
Madigan has bolted through at Leinster following an injury to Berquist
and the unfortunate retirement of Ian McKinley. The IRFU had approved
the signing of Berquist that was effectively blocking both McKinley and
Madigan, and if he had been fit Madigan would have seen very little time
in a blue shirt. Since Madigan isn't leaving AFAIK the IRFU don't seem
to have any problem with him being an understudy at a province.

If the IRFU had the first notion of what a big picture was they would
have allowed Jackson to learn under an experienced 10 and in two years
when he is really needed he would have been far better equipped to step
up. It is precisely because I want to see Jackson fulfill his
significant potential that his senior introduction should have been
managed better. He has a strong character (and not arrogant BTW), but he
will make mistakes and will be demonised for that in the same way Niall
O'Connor was. NOC's confidence was shot to pieces when he left Ulster
and he had Ian Humphreys to take some of the blame!

The IRFU can only see a picture the size of an i-phone rather than an IMAX.

I do agree with Aukster to an extent. If the reason for blocking NIQs is to allow for development of the Irish players, then what efforts are the IRFU putting in place to ensure Keatley, Madigan and Hanrahan get gametime? Its ok for an IQ player to block development of a young irish prospect but not an NIQ.

This is why I believe the IRFU need to do more to encourage player signings between the provinces. If they care enough about Irish development to block transfers, then how can they justify allowing a province to have somewhat a monoploy on certain positional areas.

Munster/Leinster have FIVE irish international scrum halves in the past two years.

Their motivation for the NIQ rules doesnt stand up because the same motivation in other areas of development doesnt result in equivalent action.

clivemcl wrote:I do agree with Aukster to an extent. If the reason for blocking NIQs is to allow for development of the Irish players, then what efforts are the IRFU putting in place to ensure Keatley and Hanrahan get gametime? Its ok for an IQ player to block development of a young irish prospect but not an NIQ.

Thats something I've been saying for a while. The IRFU will only allow the likes of Nacewa or Pedrie a 1 year deal because they are over 30 but will happily give D'arcy, ROG and O'Connell 2 or 3 year central contract extensions....despite being older...

They seem to believe that Irish players are immune to the aging process.

The whole IRFU NIQ policy didn't need fixing in my opinion and the tightening up on NIQs will eventually be counterproductive. We need quality Irish players coming through the ranks, of that there is no doubt but they need guidance. Instructional and moral guidance is fine but there's no better guidance than playing alongside and being in competition for your place with a quality player striving for the same shirt. Paddy Jackson will have Ruan on one side and Paddy on the other to look after him along with the voice of Dr Dave but who will be pushing him for the 10 shirt? NOC?

I would happily have Keatley, Madigan or Hanrahan compete with him at Ulster, but apparantly the IRFU have no problem with them getting next to no experience at their current clubs whilst demanding nobody is allowed to stunt Jacksons growth at Ulster!

In fairness Clive the IRFU can't force anyone to go where they don't want to go.

The IRFU have no problem with Ulster signing an Irish 10 but if Keatley, Madigan and Hanaran are happy where they are and/or don't want to come to Ulster then that is not the IRFUs fault.

The failing is on Ulsters academy system for not identifying and developing indiginious talent at fly-half to a sufficient standard.

rodders wrote:In fairness Clive the IRFU can't force anyone to go where they don't want to go.

The IRFU have no problem with Ulster signing an Irish 10 but if Keatley, Madigan and Hanaran are happy where they are and/or don't want to come to Ulster then that is not the IRFUs fault.

The failing is on Ulsters academy system for not identifying and developing indiginious talent at fly-half to a sufficient standard.

Rodders, this is only true if the IRFU have no dealings with the province players. But of course they do. They pay central contracts. If they are in the business of paying players club wages, then I would suggest they can also add wage incentives to players going to other clubs if that means they get more gametime and ultimately improves the talent from which Ireland can select. So yea i see no reason why the IRFU cannot add this system onto the systems already in place if they are really serious about improving the Ireland set up.

Clive firstly the players mentioned are not on central contracts.

Secondly even if they were they still can't force someone to go were they don't want to go. Even the centrally contracted players are contracted to particular province.

I do get what you are saying from an Irleand perspective but it is not down to the IRFU, but the individual players themselves and the provinces to decide where they want to go.

I wasnt suggesting that they are on or should get central contracts. I was just showing that there are instances where the IRFU are involved with money and players. I would suggest that if a province were short in a positional area where another province had an abundance that those players might be offered a better salary (subsidised by IRFU) if they moved for their own development and the benefit of the national side. It would still be the players choice. But the IRFU could help make the decision more difficult to turn down.

rodders wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I do agree with Aukster to an extent. If the reason for blocking NIQs is to allow for development of the Irish players, then what efforts are the IRFU putting in place to ensure Keatley and Hanrahan get gametime? Its ok for an IQ player to block development of a young irish prospect but not an NIQ.

Thats something I've been saying for a while. The IRFU will only allow the likes of Nacewa or Pedrie a 1 year deal because they are over 30 but will happily give D'arcy, ROG and O'Connell 2 or 3 year central contract extensions....despite being older...

They seem to believe that Irish players are immune to the aging process.

Agreed. It's madness. There's a hell of a lot I don't like about how the IRFU is run. A hell of a lot. It's a long, long list and their policies on signings over the years have been up there. Even though I agree with the policy on Jackson, high risk though it is, it's for different reasons.

I do seriously feel that Munster, Leinster and since the change of CEO Ulster are run with a lot more foresight and vision than the central body in Dublin that administrates the national team and thats reflected on the pitch as well. But I'm not even going to start; more concerned with the Heineken Cup draw tbh.

I dont know exactly what it is with Ulster, maybe its reality, maybe its just a negative mentality about ourselves. But I look at JJ Hanrahan play in the U20s and I imagine if all of a sudden Munster where left with no-one but him they would make it work and they would still be a very good side.

(You maybe disagree but i'll assume you agree for now) So, what is it then, is Jackson actually not as good as the likes of Hanrahan, or are we just pessimists? Or have we (till now) not had enough coaching quality to really maximise the output of the young prospects bar Gilroy?

Also, where did Cusack end up going? Or has he left professional rugby? Any Munster fans think he is better than NOC?

rodders wrote:In fairness Clive the IRFU can't force anyone to go where they don't want to go.

The IRFU have no problem with Ulster signing an Irish 10 but if Keatley, Madigan and Hanaran are happy where they are and/or don't want to come to Ulster then that is not the IRFUs fault.

The failing is on Ulsters academy system for not identifying and developing indiginious talent at fly-half to a sufficient standard.

What does it say that these players are happy sitting back hoping someone gets injured rather than going to Ulster and becoming first choice or at least having a fair battle to become first choice?
Do they believe than can learn more from Sexton or ROG and the coaches at their provinces or just prefer the playing in Dublin and Limerick in the winter over those rainy Friday nights at Ravenhill?

If Keatley is 3rd in line at 10 all Munster need is him or ROG to pickup a injury that could leave Hanrahan and Jackson both as the starting 10s for their provinces thats risky for the long term future of Irish Rugby

http://live.ercrugby.com/player1.html

Live draw if anyones interested

Connacht stand a real chance I reckon

I look forward to the opportunity to shout abuse at hartly and ashton at Ravers!

Not a bad draw for us, can't wait for it to get under way again. Really should be looking to win that group!

Clive, Ashton is at Saracans next season!