The Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Christchurch

First topic message reminder :

Kia ora and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub - a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The Pub has made it's way to Christchurch, as it prepares to host its first test match in over 2 years. While reconstruction continues post-earthquake there's plenty of vacant lots for the pub to "occupy".

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of Llanelli legend Nigel Davies, and local heroes Richie McCaw and Dan Carter.



Old Pub: https://www.606v2.com/t30493p950-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-pub-jedburgh#1304660

Linebreaker wrote:How can Australia be average at provincial level and above average at international level?

The same reason that Wales play better when they come together internationally. They play as a team, they play a fast paced game, and the coach is good at this. It is all about the game plan. How can the likes of Leinster be one of the quickest teams at provincial level and then suddenly when everyone comes together for Ireland, they are embarrassingly slow and disorganised?

But Rory, Leinster aren't.

Also intensity may not necessarily be the key indicator of a team's performance.

The motors might be running at top speed but what sizes are the motors... and who is driving the damn thing?

Wales players on the Rugby Show (on right now) are just saying it was the 'most intense, fastest game they've ever played' and they promise they will do better on Sat.

I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden was only option. Harsh though it is glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

Sorry for posting this in the pub. Just feel rational discussion on the Ireland threads is not an option anymore.

Ha... Rod Kafer is now carefully dissecting Will Genia's game on the chalkboard (a high tech screen with fancy graphics). Now our other tactics and strategies.

The Welsh players will be watching it at some stage... maybe at the Crown Dining Room as we speak.

I've always thought Australians give too much away. We shouldn't be too keen to provide solutions either!

Leinster aren't what?

Exactly, they played a SH team. The gulf is huge. Australia and NZ are a step ahead of the rest right now. SA will be getting there soon, but they are starting a new chapter in their books. If the international game is a step up, and as you say the aussie clubs (and welsh clubs) don't play as well, wouldn't that tell you they would struggle even more to step up to a higher level? It just doesn't make much sense.

You can sometimes point out a player lacks a certain skill to compete with his opposition. For example, Cave may indeed lack the pace required to play against some of the big name 13s. However, the step up to international level thing just doesn't make any sense IMO.

Notch wrote:I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden was only option. Harsh though it is glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

Sorry for posting this in the pub. Just feel rational discussion on the Ireland threads is not an option anymore.

I'd make a new thread for this discussion Notch and pray that Sin doesn't touch it. There are now two threads created for Sin to use, but he doesn't seem to be using them yet..

Notch wrote:I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden was only option. Harsh though it is glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

Sorry for posting this in the pub. Just feel rational discussion on the Ireland threads is not an option anymore.

All questions on my mind and would most likely be on Declan Kidney's too if he'd just stop mumbling bull and think for a change

'embarrassingly slow'

They look very quick and slick in the highlights I get too see.

Team: 15-Ben Foden, 14-Chris Ashton, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Manusamoa Tuilagi, 11-David Strettle (Saracens), 10-Toby Flood, 9-Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Morgan, 7-Chris Robshaw, 6-Tom Johnson, 5-Geoff Parling, 4-Mouritz Botha, 3-Dan Cole, 2-Dylan Hartley, 1-Joe Marler

Replacements: 16-Lee Mears, 17-Alex Corbisiero, 18-Tom Palmer, 19-Phil Dowson, 20-Lee Dickson, 21-Owen Farrell, 22-Alex Goode.

Linebreaker wrote:They are simply the best at getting it right at all levels most of the time. This 'step' concept is misleading. NZ just have a special culture of knowing 'how to win'... never say die, etc. There's nothing complex about it. It's all hard work.

Don't forget SA (34) and Oz (41) have beaten them 75 times... so there's is a chink there every now and then... over the last century for SA; during the last 30 odd years for Oz. It's just that they've beaten us 97 times and SA 46 times over the same period.

Kiwi, 'twas good to see our men & women's touch rugby sides hand down a lesson in Mudgee the other day (they had a little piece on it)

So you are human after all?

The Aussies tend to win touch rugby internationals vs NZ - it is derived from RL after all

The Aussie Ladies snatched the indoor netball world title off NZ in Brisbane this week too, despite losing twice to NZ in pool play.

I've just checked and the Aussie men did almost the same - NZ won 2 of the 3 pool matches and then got thrashed in the final. Either we choked or your boys were sandbagging

prop_lyd wrote:Team: 15-Ben Foden, 14-Chris Ashton, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Manusamoa Tuilagi, 11-David Strettle (Saracens), 10-Toby Flood, 9-Ben Youngs, 8 Ben Morgan, 7-Chris Robshaw, 6-Tom Johnson, 5-Geoff Parling, 4-Mouritz Botha, 3-Dan Cole, 2-Dylan Hartley, 1-Joe Marler

Replacements: 16-Lee Mears, 17-Alex Corbisiero, 18-Tom Palmer, 19-Phil Dowson, 20-Lee Dickson, 21-Owen Farrell, 22-Alex Goode.

I would worry about lack of real impact from that bench

Linebreaker wrote:'embarrassingly slow'

They look very quick and slick in the highlights I get too see.

Yeah that is what I meant.

"It is all about the game plan. How can the likes of Leinster be one of the quickest teams at provincial level and then suddenly when everyone comes together for Ireland, they are embarrassingly slow and disorganised?"

Stop engaging with him altogether Rory.

Here's the thing; don't think Sin or those of us debating with him have any malice at all (except maybe towards Johnny Sexy Rugby). They are also not breaking any rules.

But its ruining the discussion. Can the mods do anything? Dunno man. They aren't breaking any rules as far as I can see. But I'll do as you say.

https://www.606v2.com/t30974-my-questions-about-ireland#1310592

Pool 1- Gloucester Rugby, London Irish, Bordeaux-Begles and Mont de Marsan

Pool 2 - USA Perpignan, Worcester Warriors, Femi-CZ Vea Rovigo, Bizkaia Gernika RT

Pool 3 - London Wasps, Newport Gwent Dragons, Bayonne, Rugby Mogliano

Pool 4 - Bath Rugby, Cammi Rugby Calvisano, SU Agen, Bucharest Wolves

Pool 5 - Stade Francais Paris, Newcastle Falcons, I Cavalieri Prato, Grenoble

Linebreaker wrote:How can Australia be average at provincial level and above average at international level?

There's a one-word answer to that LB:
Depth.

(or "Lack of depth" if you want the 3-word version).
Australia doesn't have the player base to maintain 5 competitive teams against 5 competitive teams from NZ and SA - and that's with the latter two having many more players up North chasing £s/Yoyos/Yen. Australia do generally manage to keep 2 teams in the playoff race until near the end, vs 3 for NZ/SA and the Reds won last year's SuperXV, so there isn't that big a gap at provincial level.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Morning all, late arrival in work this morning - Father's Day coffee morning with Finn and his class, then strait on to Niamh's class summer show. Exhausted now!

Morning Asbo. Just wait until you do Hoog's school sports day

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:They are simply the best at getting it right at all levels most of the time. This 'step' concept is misleading. NZ just have a special culture of knowing 'how to win'... never say die, etc. There's nothing complex about it. It's all hard work.

Don't forget SA (34) and Oz (41) have beaten them 75 times... so there's is a chink there every now and then... over the last century for SA; during the last 30 odd years for Oz. It's just that they've beaten us 97 times and SA 46 times over the same period.

Kiwi, 'twas good to see our men & women's touch rugby sides hand down a lesson in Mudgee the other day (they had a little piece on it)

So you are human after all?

The Aussies tend to win touch rugby internationals vs NZ - it is derived from RL after all

The Aussie Ladies snatched the indoor netball world title off NZ in Brisbane this week too, despite losing twice to NZ in pool play.

I've just checked and the Aussie men did almost the same - NZ won 2 of the 3 pool matches and then got thrashed in the final. Either we choked or your boys were sandbagging

...and we beat China in the basketball series. Another massive scalp.
The last game was played in Albany (a tiny town on The Bight in WA)

We seem to have the wood on them in most sports but we have a long way to go in table tennis - but I hear we are already pinching their players.

WillyGilly wrote:Don't know if anyone saw this at the time, but she's well worth a watch.

http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/05/2610/the-beasts-power-saves-anton-bresler-from-disaster-twice

While he showed great strength, that is not really an example I would want young props to try and imitate. From a technical stand point that is not a great lift.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:How can Australia be average at provincial level and above average at international level?

There's a one-word answer to that LB:
Depth.

(or "Lack of depth" if you want the 3-word version).
Australia doesn't have the player base to maintain 5 competitive teams against 5 competitive teams from NZ and SA - and that's with the latter two having many more players up North chasing £s/Yoyos/Yen. Australia do generally manage to keep 2 teams in the playoff race until near the end, vs 3 for NZ/SA and the Reds won last year's SuperXV, so there isn't that big a gap at provincial level.

That's what I mentioned the other day. We do have a smaller pool of rugby players but the quality of them is heavily influenced by our other two football codes.

I don't know if the GAA would ever invite the Ireland rugby side over for some craic... share the goalposts and tackling bags... chew the fat on ideas and techniques.

We do in Australia (RU, RL & AFL) - and NZ is the same (RU & RL).
SA is disadvantaged in this respect however they have no shortage of some very 'pure rugby players' as we all know. It's that little edge I describe above which has helped us to compete with the Big Two in the modern era in particular.

I can't stress how important a factor it is - call it an x-factor but it is hard to describe it when it is so ingrained in our approach to sport in general.

Like the women touch footballers, Kiwi - ruthless and they understand what it takes! That amazes me... and amuses me too.

You can't tackle in GAA so the only thing we learn from GAA is catching really (you learn a bit about running lines, not a lot as rugby is lateral, GAA is forward , unless your Cork with our handpassing game)


Being involved with underage, I can tell you that a lot of kids have decent hands. About 12 or 13 of the 20 odd strong panel have been involved in GAA at some point and around 6/7 play it regularly. We do a drill that lasts about 4 minutes, with 4 cones and around 5 on each cone (depends on numbers) there are three/four balls going around and you run and pass to the man in a pattern shown here:

Spoiler:

If there are more than 5 dropped during the drill (run at 90% with frequent 100% bursts) there is either sit-ups, Press-ups, "star jumps" or a hybrid of the squat/"star jump". They rarely have to do those punishment exercises

Same thing is true in Ireland as it is in Australia Kiwi, breaker. We have a genuine lack of depth in our national team.

But our provincial and international success is the other way around

I see what you mean Thomond... maybe just bonding sessions or something that would build confidence in both.

Kicking skills are different I know but there are also many shared aspects too. There's still a lot that could be shared between the codes like running into spaces, play off the ball, drawing players, etc.

A real Irish approach to put the opposition in two minds, like!

The problem is which GAA side would you pick as well. There are a few shared aspects alright, playing into space, drawing the man is used a lot in hurling, not in football, but can be effective. Have you seen some GAA matches?

Cari wrote:Afternoon all. It's lunchtime and I need an escape.

Notch - I don't really do photography. Swanny is into it more though.

Do you know what, I'm getting tired of people who think they've got some god given right to insult others publicly because they think it's fun. Life is hard without people getting in your face and making it worse. Rant over.

Cariadwr, am certain that you'll have already dealt with this, but a suggestion would be to have a quiet word with this person in private - if you explain how you felt, any person with even an iota of respect will amend their actions, I'm sure. There's a possibility they don't realise the effect that they are having, so hopefully you can set them straight. Perhaps you've already done this, and are on top of it already, in which case, pls ignore

Dragons Bayonne (again) and Mogliano



You go to some class places in the Amlin.

Thomond wrote:The problem is which GAA side would you pick as well. There are a few shared aspects alright, playing into space, drawing the man is used a lot in hurling, not in football, but can be effective. Have you seen some GAA matches?

Not many. The odd highlights over the years. We don't really see any provincial rugby though either. No free to air and barely a mention.
Top 14 but nothing else. You have to get up in the wee hours to watch a stream if you're keen.

I was just interested if there was any skills applicable to both which might be used more effectively... or a secret weapon or something.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
You go to some class places in the Amlin.

Whereabouts is Mogliano? Whats that like?

Sounds like the perfect holiday destination.

Conditioning in GAA is pretty amazing especailly when you consider that all the players are amateur. I wrote something a while back about some of the dedication they put in here

There are some transferable skills but not a lot, the handling and vision will be the main thing. I think you can learn a fair bit about rugby from soccer as well.Oddly enough for a guy who played minor his county I would say Tommy Bowe's hands are quite poor!

Notch wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
You go to some class places in the Amlin.

Whereabouts is Mogliano? Whats that like?

I just Googled it, it's near Venice.

I didn't know the Italian Premiership was called the "National Championship of Excellence"

Hound, are you planning on going to that one?

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Dragons Bayonne (again) and Mogliano



You go to some class places in the Amlin.

I was praying for the Dragons to be in our group!!

Notch wrote:I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden was only option. Harsh though it is glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

Sorry for posting this in the pub. Just feel rational discussion on the Ireland threads is not an option anymore.

I think that's a sad post Notch, in that it seems Kidney had beaten the passion out of you and you are limiting what you want to what you think you may actually get.

Well thats it. I expect 30 to 50 points defeat. We've seriously lost our way. I just want to see some green shoots.

That is very sad. Wish I could stop caring about the team at times like this. But of course I can't.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Notch wrote:

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
You go to some class places in the Amlin.

Whereabouts is Mogliano? Whats that like?

I just Googled it, it's near Venice.

Proper nice trip then! Enjoy.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also know players who say HEC rugby is just as intense as international rugby.

I wonder if this is something the Irish players have tricked themselves into thinking. Apart from the provinces I don't see many teams suggest that it is. It is these same players who so often fail to deliver on the international stage.

Mogliano is between Venice and Treviso, and yes I will do that one. Italian home games are usually Saturday afternoons (Sunday is football there)

I bet we get Bayonne on a blwdi Thursday night again

Wallabies trained with Richmond Tigers at Punt Road today. Exactly the point I made before. They were practising lineouts, kicks and taking marks.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also know players who say HEC rugby is just as intense as international rugby.

I wonder if this is something the Irish players have tricked themselves into thinking. Apart from the provinces I don't see many teams suggest that it is. It is these same players who so often fail to deliver on the international stage.

I haven't seen any of the irish guys say it. It is mostly french players who I have read say this about the HEC.

What players are you talking about?

I've seen lots of Munster players and Leinster players over the years say it. This is usually as they are the ones in the semi final/final. Im pretty sure Quinlan and ROG are two that have said it though I dont have a source.

Sam Warburton has just said the same thing about last Saturday's game too now.

I noticed players from both sides (Origin last night) said the same things too... "it was the most intense, brutal game they had ever played, etc".

Clement Poitrenaud has said the game against Leinster in 2011 was played at the standard of the “latter stages of the world cup”. And he’d know.

Maybe its more of a universal thing than I thought . . . .

I think it's just a reflection of how intense competitive rugby at the top levels really is. The bar just seems to get incrementally higher each season! All players justified in saying how they compare the intensity of their last match... when the stakes may be higher.

Just something to consider. I think all this about the most intense, or the fastest, or most physical games, says more about the opposition they are playing, than what level. I have heard Muller say in person that some of the most physical games he has played are against the Pacific Islanders. Many other players have said this. I don't find it surprising that Australia are described in such a way, as they are indeed an incredible team right now and they played a level above Wales in that game.

Apparently the S15 teams always look at the team sheets to see how many PI are on the team.

Does that include the "Kiwis" from there?

I mean, it's nothing wrong to say it... it's just that it doesn't earn you any automatic rights for your next game, right?

I've watched a game in Avarua (Cook Is) - yes, they play very hard.
Don't forget Scotland have had points piled on against them in the past (51-26 v Fiji and 28-11 v Samoa) but the 2012 team shouldn't have problems as long as they don't take things for granted.

That was a very good win against the Wallabies in Newcastle but conditions and style of play in the Pacific Islands will be totally different.

Also - both Fiji and Samoa are playing their tourny in Japan along with Tonga.

That's probably the best organised preparation they've ever had leading into matches with Scotland on home turf.

breaker, isn't there some invitational tournament going on elsewhere at the moment that has drawn a number of the Pacific Islands players away from their test teams?

What a day!

So far we have gone straight from a Piano exam to School Sports Day.

Then it's gather the kids, quick tea and off to physio and then 2 different sets of athletics (as long as the physio gives the wee lad the thumbs up!)

#exhaustedalready