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Tuilagi on the wing...Catt/Lancaster mentalists?

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Bathman_in_London
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 12 Jun 2012, 5:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.espnscrum.com/england-tour-2012/rugby/story/165632.html

Or just playing games with SA to keep to them guessing and disrupt their planning?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler

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Post by Looseheaded Wed 13 Jun 2012, 1:58 am

jeffwinger wrote: He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ok I'm don-

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Sorry about that, but behave.

Looseheaded

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Post by nathan Wed 13 Jun 2012, 8:30 am

jeffwinger wrote:Farrell is a very strong tackler. I'd have no worries about him defensively at 12, he could cope with Steyn/JdV fine. He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres. I agree he is nowhere near good enough going forward to play in the centre at international level.

I'd still be tempted to play him at 10 ahead of Flood. I am not a fan of Flood. I accept the attacking shape he would provide, but we would lose a lot in defence and his kicking from hand and off the tee is average. He also doesn't seem to have the mental strength to succeed internationally, while he has never performed behind a pack that isn't completely dominant. It seems like everyone is assuming that if Flood plays he will play like he does for Leicester, but I doubt this will be the case. I feel there is an element of remembering him being a lot better than he ever was. He has nearly 50 caps now and he has consistently flattered to deceive. There have been good games but they have only been when the pack have been dominant and Youngs, Ashton and Foden have been sharp, giving him a lot of time and picking dangerous lines off him. At international level, Flood is a second rate flyhalf, while Farrell has the potential to be a lot better. Hodgson is not the answer and there are no other options, so Farrell it is for me. I wish one of the other young 10s had toured instead of Hodgson so they could have had a run now that Farrell is struggling. Burns would have been the best of the bunch, but Ford could also have done a job. As it is, play Farrell and just tell him to pass it more.

Didn't he have the worse missed tackles at 12 stats for last season, I'm sorry but if that doesn't worry you...

nathan

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Post by jeffwinger Wed 13 Jun 2012, 8:36 am

Looseheaded wrote:
jeffwinger wrote: He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ok I'm don-

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Sorry about that, but behave.

Harinordoquy isn't bigger the Frans Steyn or JdV? I think he is.

jeffwinger

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Post by Comfort Wed 13 Jun 2012, 10:51 am

Im not sure why Flood isnt being used at 10, hes been criminally managed by England the alst couple of seasons.

He'd walk into the welsh 10 shirt on his most recent form.

As for Farrell, hes a good defender for a fly half. But thats about it, at 12, I'd be a little worried about him without Tuilagi outside him against JDV & Steyn, those 2 are serious ball carriers who can shift and create angles for support in midfield.

I'd go with a midfield of:

10. Flood
12. Tuilagi
13. JJ

That tackle on Harinordiquay was a good tackle, but its hardly driving back a renowned ball carrier who was running at him is it....

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 13 Jun 2012, 10:55 am

jeffwinger wrote:
Looseheaded wrote:
jeffwinger wrote: He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ok I'm don-

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Sorry about that, but behave.

Harinordoquy isn't bigger the Frans Steyn or JdV? I think he is.

I suspect he read it as I did, that you were suggesting Farrell is a bigger carrier than the Saffer pair

LondonTiger
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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 13 Jun 2012, 11:18 am

Didn't he have the worse missed tackles at 12 stats for last season, I'm sorry but if that doesn't worry you...

Nathan, Farrell didn't play 12 last season. He played 13 and so had the very serious problem of being slower than almost every outside back he played against. This led to him rushing out the line in order to try and stop attacks before the outside backs could go round him. The rushing out the line thing is a serious concern as it is more panic than predictive. Farrell is a solid tackler but is inexperienced when it comes to making calls in defence.

Im not sure why Flood isnt being used at 10, hes been criminally managed by England the alst couple of seasons

Got to agree with Comfort here, last time Flood had a run of games in the 10 shirt England won the 6N. Flood even picked up the MOTM award against Wales at the Millenium Stadium. He was at 10 for all of 2 minutes in the first test and he created 2 English breaks that got us the try. We simply won't out defend this Boks team but we can very well play through and round it if we're clever.

Shoving our best back onto the wing IS NOT CLEVER!

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed 13 Jun 2012, 11:51 am

Hopefully Manu and JJ will interchange during the game, it wouldnt be a huge surprise if JJ was 'hidden' a bit on the wing during defence seeing as its his first start.

A backline with the pair of them should offer something in attack at least, Manu coming off his wing at pace should create a bit of a line break which JJ could exploit. Providing Manu passes to him of course!

While the backs are being discussed, Ashton needs to step it up from last week, I thought his defence was very poor and he needs to offer himself and look for work more. Although having said that it was hard to play off Farrell the way he was playing last week...

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Post by gowales Wed 13 Jun 2012, 11:57 am

jeffwinger wrote:
Looseheaded wrote:
jeffwinger wrote: He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ok I'm don-

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Sorry about that, but behave.

Harinordoquy isn't bigger the Frans Steyn or JdV? I think he is.

Actually he's around the same size as both, 6'3 100Kg Steyn is a much bigger presence imo and de Villiers usually makes dents in the opposition defence.. Harinordoquy doesn't really crash it either he's more of a runner like Parisse than a steam train.

gowales

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 13 Jun 2012, 12:21 pm

Bathman I think we're thinking along the same lines. JJ and Ashton coming off their wings and hitting lines off of Flood's shoulders as he plays his flat attacking game. Will challenge the SA backrow and hopefully draw in the Boks centres so we can actually go wide with Manu. JJ coming off his wing and hitting an angle from a flat Flood pass was the break that led to the try in the first test.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Wed 13 Jun 2012, 12:36 pm

I think we are Sam. If Flood is allowed to be first receiver then we should see a bit more of the sort of play that allowed that try in the first game. If there is always a threat of Manu coming off the blindeside wing off Floods shoulder, then that should keep the big tackelers in the SA backrow/ centres tight in, hopefully leaving some space out wide to exploit.

But if Farrell is at first reciever, I can't see him having the range of passing to make that happen. He will do better at 12/effectively 2nd flyhalf where he has played most of his rugby. His defence is solid, so he will be no worse there than barritt was last week, while at least offering another kicking option.

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Post by dragonbreath Wed 13 Jun 2012, 7:12 pm

Manu's best performances have been with Flood at 10. He has no step no guile, but if you put him into a half gap he takes some stopping. Flood has shown he can do this. Farrell is a very limited player and I said as much when he was being lauded as the the new Jonny during the 6nations, an almost comical comparison.

Flood should play and if he does you will see the threat Tuillagi represents. He is not a wing he does no have the top end speed. Keep him where he can do most damage

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Post by mbernz Wed 13 Jun 2012, 8:18 pm

dragonbreath wrote:He is not a wing he does no have the top end speed.

I agree, he just doesn't have the pace to run half the pitch and score out wide against a covering back 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTKi7qqse4c


I'd prefer him at 12 than the wing if he had to be moved.

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Post by Hood83 Wed 13 Jun 2012, 8:36 pm

jeffwinger wrote:Playing well in those games is certainly to his credit, but it doesn't prove a lot.

I think to be a good international player you have to occasionally transcend the performance of your team and really stand out. At flyhalf this is especially noticeable. Flood has never done this, despite countless opportunities.

Cipriani and Geraghty have also had some storming games for England but they didn't last long because the consistency wasn't there. I think Flood has been lucky to have survived as an England player this long. His negatives may not be as spectacular as Cipriani's, but nor are his positives.

Anthony Allen has never had another chance (until now maybe) after throwing an interception to Joe Rokocoko vs NZ, but in the same series Flood threw an even worse one vs Argentina and survived. Countless others have come and gone but Flood has survived some shocking performances.

James I agree Ford should come into serious contention next season, and I expect he will.

As for the nonsense about Flood being poorly treated, he was unjustifiably retained a lot of the time! Read above. Wilkinson was by far the best option at the time because Flood is an average defender, average kicker and doesn't have the mental fortitude for test match rugby. A lot of the time Flood was chosen ahead of Wilkinson which was just plain wrong. I'll accept someone picking him over Farrell at the moment, but not over Wilkinson when he was still playing well for Toulon. The fact Johnson did pick Flood a lot of the time was a problem, not that he didn't always pick him.

I don't remember Butch James 'transcending' the South Africa team that won a world cup. In fact, i don't remember him doing anything much of note in the whole tournament.

Wilkinson was absolutely shot and had offered nothing at that level to suggest he should be back in the side. Picking Flood was a problem because? Because we won a 6Ns with him?

Sorry, but IMO you're basing Farrell's potential on a lot of ifs but and maybes. IF he learns to pass, IF he learns to stand flat, IF he manages to develop an extra 5 yards of pace. At the moment Flood is as good a defender (his defence is grossly underrated), almost as good a kicker from the t, a better touch finder, a better passer off both hands and a better runner. Farrell is young and a good kicker, unfortunately he's absolutely awful at everything else.

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Post by Looseheaded Thu 14 Jun 2012, 3:07 pm

kiss
jeffwinger wrote:
Looseheaded wrote:
jeffwinger wrote: He smashed Harinordoquy back a fair few times during the 6N, and he's a bigger carrier than either of the SA centres.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Ok I'm don-

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Sorry about that, but behave.

Harinordoquy isn't bigger the Frans Steyn or JdV? I think he is.

My mistake I misread it as you saying that Farrell was a bigger carrier than the centres, i do apoligise/

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