Sam Warbuton - Agreeing with what most of us have said so far.

First topic message reminder :

Sam Warburton says Wales should have kept hold of the ball rather than kicking it away in the final fateful moments of normal time during the dramatic clash with the Wallabies.

With just over a minute left on the clock, fly-half Rhys Priestland booted the ball down field and that ultimately led to Australia earning the penalty which super-sub Mike Harris landed to snatch a 25-23 victory.

“The plan was to keep the ball,” revealed skipper Warburton.

“When the ball was kicked, I remember Ryan Jones shouting ‘No’ at the top of his voice.

“It wasn’t what the forwards were planning. Just a little bit of composure and patience was what was needed.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/06/17/kicking-ball-to-australia-in-last-minute-was-wrong-admits-sam-warburton-91466-31199166/

Believe me, I do feel sorry for Priestland, because he is going to have a very difficult time clinging onto the Welsh 10 shirt from now on, his confidence is also rocked, but I'm glad Warburton is not afraid to voice his opinion on the matter.

Hey there Samurai mate
Yes watched it yesterday (had to believe in aldershot with 3 scots 4 welsh and 2 english guys who didnt have a clue.... the english that is been footy fans !!)

I saw Jenkins give away 2 pens in front of your posts which one went over and it was only due to Barnes injury that he didnt put you behind in the 73rd min. AWJ gave away too many (but then again he always does), and also Adam Jones did.

Finally you gave away that stupid stupid pen providing Oz to wack it up

Webb shouldnt have passed to Priestland, when he knew all the forwards were ahead of him........... what were the options?

1. He runs into the oppposing centres probably getting turned over
2. He passes out wide, not good when you see the drift defence coming up
3. He KICKS

Tell me what he should have done?

FHF, not disagreeing about what you say regarding the pack, though I saw more penalties from Bradley than AWJ. You could also have mentioned the missed lineouts.

Regarding the Priest's decision, what would your mate Stephen Jones have done in those circs? I reckon he would have stood much flatter and ran back into the pack or near enough to recycle. Who made the call for the pass, Webb or Priest or was it part of the Howley grand strategy? No idea, but hoofing to the Oz back 3 is a bad idea. Was a disaster even for the All Blacks, as Taylorman so poignantly describes.

I am not wumming here, but can any Welsh posters tell me in simple terms (given that Biggar is not touring) why Hook is now not a better option at 10 given that you have great wings and Halfpenny is happy at 15?

A simple mistake like that shouldn't cost an international career but it should mean that you are benched for a bit if you don't make the correct decisions at key points in a match.

George Carlin wrote:I am not wumming here, but can any Welsh posters tell me in simple terms (given that Biggar is not touring) why Hook is now not a better option at 10 given that you have great wings and Halfpenny is happy at 15?

A simple mistake like that shouldn't cost an international career but it should mean that you are benched for a bit if you don't make the correct decisions at key points in a match.

Simple answer. with Hook at 10 there's no point having players who can run at 11 to 15 as he never passes the ball, altough with Howleys game plan of hoof it upfield he might as well use Hook as he does at least have the stronger kicking game.
Selecting Priestland for his game management and then giving him a game plan that does not fit his style is plain daft.

If we're going to play an expansive running game it has to be Priestland, if its going to be kick and chase then it can not be Priestland and either Biggar who should be out there or Hook need to play 10.

Wales are gifted with a variety of talented players at the moment, the coaches need to learn how to utilise them correctly.

The issue for me is did Warbrton wittingly or unwittingly make these comments?

Some people are suggesting he willingly used Priestland as a scapegoat, a player who is an easy target but I would maintain was absolutely not the reason Wales lost.

Others are saying either that Warburton was right to say what he said or didnt intend it to hand Priestland out to dry.

Either way, I think really poor captaincy and is very damaging to Priestland. With every passing game it seems Warburton is both playing himself and talking himself out of a Lions position.

This is not what one would expect from a captain, leader and team player.

sugarNspikes wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Maybe Warburton only realised it wasn't the right thing to do...when it became clear that it wasnt the right thing to do? Hindsight insight?

Or he thought, "I've had a pretty poor game, Rhys as been doing worse recently and I'll hang him out to dry"?

Very possible. Warburton should remember the support he got after he managed to get himself sent off in one of the biggest games in Wales history. I dont recall any Welsh players blaming him personally for the loss.

I'm glad I'm not the only poster who realises that our overriding problem lies in the tactic of kicking the ball long and infield to the opposition and willingly, gladly, playing the game without the ball. Who's responsible for that? Why, that'll be the Welsh management.

But ultimately, Linebreaker's hit the nail on the head.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm glad I'm not the only poster who realises that our overriding problem lies in the tactic of kicking the ball long and infield to the opposition and willingly, gladly, playing the game without the ball. Who's responsible for that? Why, that'll be the Welsh management.

But ultimately, Linebreaker's hit the nail on the head.

Ireland do that most of the time, it was less frequent at the weekend though! I really don't understand the point of it if you don't have an incredible kick chase.

Thomond, you hear rugby pundits going on about how much harder and more tiring it is when you have to defend, so I just don't understand why you'd choose to be defending.

If you're going to kick, kick for touch.

It's a bizarre tactic anywya, but for it to be successful you need a kick chase. Wales' wasn't great and Ireland's is atrocious when they do it.

I agree with what Warburton is saying. I've said from the beginning that it was Priestland's error that ultimately cost us that game and although I've cooled down since matchday I still see no reason to change that opinion. It was one of the most painfully dull kicks I've ever witnessed and I don't understand why people are so quick to defend brainlessness of that magnitude.

Many people are saying that a good captain takes responsibility and doesn't point the finger at others. That may be true but a good captain also knows how to identify what loses or wins the game. And why should he jump up and try to deflect any criticism of Priestland as many on this thread are doing? He messed up and it's better he suffers the harsh realisation of that rather than carry on under the illusion that he's done nothing wrong, it's the most assured way he'll improve and not repeat the same mistakes in future.

Knowsit17 wrote:I agree with what Warburton is saying. I've said from the beginning that it was Priestland's error that ultimately cost us that game and although I've cooled down since matchday I still see no reason to change that opinion. It was one of the most painfully dull kicks I've ever witnessed and I don't understand why people are so quick to defend brainlessness of that magnitude.

Many people are saying that a good captain takes responsibility and doesn't point the finger at others. That may be true but a good captain also knows how to identify what loses or wins the game. And why should he jump up and try to deflect any criticism of Priestland as many on this thread are doing? He messed up and it's better he suffers the harsh realisation of that rather than carry on under the illusion that he's done nothing wrong, it's the most assured way he'll improve and not repeat the same mistakes in future.

It wouldn't be about Warburton's opinion...that he knows what a game needs doesn't actually need a public voice to prove it - I'm sure Priestland could have taken the point on board in private just as easily (and I'm sure he did!!!)

But that wouldn't be what I would see as the main contention of seeing what he saw (Warburton) and then commenting on it. I'd see it as a man who probably 'observed' too much in the heat of battle and now wants to sound like it was all clear to him then - when it was happening.

But yet, he says that it was Ryan Jones who did the heroic "No!!!" - Warburton as observer. And then in the final outcome the kick is proven to be ill-judged - Warburton takes Ryan Jone's thoughts to the press conference when he might have been better remembering his own - in those very moments.

In short, it's easy to be wise after the event and use logic (Ryan's call) to prove it.

Knowsit17 wrote:I agree with what Warburton is saying. I've said from the beginning that it was Priestland's error that ultimately cost us that game and although I've cooled down since matchday I still see no reason to change that opinion. It was one of the most painfully dull kicks I've ever witnessed and I don't understand why people are so quick to defend brainlessness of that magnitude.

Many people are saying that a good captain takes responsibility and doesn't point the finger at others. That may be true but a good captain also knows how to identify what loses or wins the game. And why should he jump up and try to deflect any criticism of Priestland as many on this thread are doing? He messed up and it's better he suffers the harsh realisation of that rather than carry on under the illusion that he's done nothing wrong, it's the most assured way he'll improve and not repeat the same mistakes in future.

Because people do not look at the context and choose to blame the entire team instead of an individual error.

Of course everyone could have played amazingly, we could have won all our lineouts and scored 6 tries and be 30 points clear therefore Priestland handing over possession in the 79th minute wouldn't have mattered, but that isn't what happened, I could have quite easily blamed the player for pulling down the maul, however we should not have been in that position.

Its the same as Ronan O'Gara getting the blame for costing us the Lions series, sure it was a team effort but it was that individual moment of stupidity that undermined the teams efforts.

If indeed 'a good captain...knows how to identify what loses or wins the game', can we conclude that Warburton is not a good captain for allowing the ball to reach Priestland in the first place?

IronMike wrote:Its the same as Ronan O'Gara getting the blame for costing us the Lions series, sure it was a team effort but it was that individual moment of stupidity that undermined the teams efforts.

Another name for it was 'concussion'. A nice serious condition that gets brushed up and plastered off and wiped clean of blood all too easily in rugby union.

Full of surprises aren't we:
1. That the captain has said anything at all - this stuff should not be in the press.
2. That the Welsh pack and SH don't know the plan for the next 70 seconds to win the test??
3. That Priestland puts in a crap kick..............well actually that's not such a big surprise as it wasn't the first aimless effort.

I think Warburton was mistaken thinking he heard Jones shouted "NO". What he heard was about three million Wales fans from the other side of the planet shouting "NO" !!!!!!!!

The clip of the last few mins are on youtube -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eW51APP3Es

Interesting to see the passage of play again.Strange RP didn't attempt to go for touch. Might have been room to move it too, as the right flank was not well covered by Oz. Also it looks as if Sam does call everyone to come up flat, though it is hard to read from his gestures.

samuraidragon wrote:The clip of the last few mins are on youtube -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eW51APP3Es

Interesting to see the passage of play again.Strange RP didn't attempt to go for touch. Might have been room to move it too, as the right flank was not well covered by Oz. Also it looks as if Sam does call everyone to come up flat, though it is hard to read from his gestures.

The actions are not consistent with a pack that are going to run down 70 secs on the clock. Webb passes it to Priestland on the previous play to the one where he kicks. Where's the communication??

That's the play when Sam seems to gesture the backs to come up flat. But Webb passes to the Priest, who ships on to JD2, who manages to recycle a little luckily. There's already a lack of composure. Next play Webb gets the ball with very little protection from his forwards. That's why he ships to the Priest, though it is a bad option. Maybe because the previous break didn't work out so well, RP doesn't move into space but immediately applies boot to ball. It's series of understandable misjudgements.

Questions have been raised over why they didn't play down the clock with a succession of forward drives, but Edwards doesn't believe that would have been the right tactic.
'The way the refs are refereeing the sealing-off process at the moment I think it would have been the wrong thing for us to try to pick and go for nearly two minutes,' he said.
'What I do think, in hindsight, is that we had two opportunities to take scrums, which in the heat of the moment would have taken virtually a minute off the clock.
'If we had our time again, our young scrum-half would have said 'let's take the scrum'.
'We have a pretty formidable scrum and we know they take quite a lot of time to actually form.
'I don't think we would have been allowed to continually pick and go and seal off the ball for two minutes.
'What we shouldn't have done is give the penalty away after the kick.
'The penalty at the maul wasn't the deciding factor. It was the one before that because it gave them the chance.
'As good a team as Australia are, I don't think they were going to come 80 metres and score.
'To give that field position up and allow them to have a set-piece in our territory, that was the deciding factor in the game. I thought it was a totally avoidable penalty.'

I don't mind what Shaun is saying here about it really, bar the "our young scrum half should call a scrum bit." Surely that's the Captain's job?

We ballsed it up. Ultimately, it doesn't matter who was responsible for it. Sam should have said something along those lines.

Not sure Edwards is right here. Oz went through 15-20 phases on several occasions in that match. Why can't we?

What happened to the concept of "collective responsibility" Sam?

Feck me!

I can understand why you might have a heated closed doors team meeting and there should be plenty of honesty and no holding back there but it is quite another thing to publicly hang a team mate out to dry like that.

Terrible leadership.

Can't blame Priestland, kicking was his only option. Now giving a penalty away at the ruck that followed 30mtrs out from the Australian line- that's the stupid thing. If we couldn't defend for 50 seconds from that position, there's no hope for us. That's where Warburton should point the finger if a finger should be pointed at all and that was a forwards mistake. We couldn't get more than a point ahead - that's the real reason we lost.

Triangulation wrote:What happened to the concept of "collective responsibility" Sam?

Feck me!

I can understand why you might have a heated closed doors team meeting and there should be plenty of honesty and no holding back there but it is quite another thing to publicly hang a team mate out to dry like that.

Terrible leadership.

This is the bad side of the Gatland way, he constantly names players and never carries the can, hence his selection of a captain that also takes no responsibility.

Sam has been a huge let down since France RWC, his form is off, his match fitness too which has a huge effect on the team, his lack of solidarity in this case. I would have said he was a shoo in Lions skipper until this tour and now I am not so sure.

Mowgli, he shouldn't have been picked. That's Rob Howley's fault. (I see no problem with pointing the finger about that!) I can only assume he was selected because we've had success under his captaincy, which is a d!ck way of selecting a side. We have two opensides: one has had a fantastic season, the other has barely played for months. It should have been a straightforward decision, but no.

magicsponge wrote:Can't blame Priestland, kicking was his only option. Now giving a penalty away at the ruck that followed 30mtrs out from the Australian line- that's the stupid thing. If we couldn't defend for 50 seconds from that position, there's no hope for us. That's where Warburton should point the finger if a finger should be pointed at all and that was a forwards mistake. We couldn't get more than a point ahead - that's the real reason we lost.

EXACTLY 100% CORRECT

Interesting to read Adam Jones view............. he mirrored your thoughts to a tee, and no singular blaming of one player

EXTRACT FROM THE BBC ARTICLE

"Wales' George North and Jonathan Davies scored tries as the tourists led for most of the game in Melbourne.

But Jones said: "We gave them a chance to get upfield. It's our own fault."

Wales led 23-22 with a minute remaining but Rhys Priestland kicked away possession of the ball and were driven back to their own 22.

The 2012 Grand Slam champions were penalised by referee Chris Pollock for a collapsed maul and Harris's composed kick secured Australia an unassailable 2-0 lead in the three-Test series.

The replacement fly-half, who replaced injured kicker Berrick Barnes just moments before, cooly stepped up to convert the last kick of the game as Australia extend their winning run over Wales to six matches.

"They're a good side, they don't stop working and they know how to win these games," said British and Irish Lions prop Jones.

"It was a perfect chance for us to level the series and perhaps we should have. Again, a silly penalty gave them a chance for a driving line out."

Wales full-back Leigh Halfpenny kicked 13 points but Rob Horne's try and 17 points from the boot of Berrick Barnes ensured Australia were always in touch so Harris could be the Etihad Stadium hero.

"One lack of concentration cost us," continued Wales centre and try-scorer Davies.

"You can't be handing Australia easy penalties and points like that, we're not going to get victories down here if we just give them easy points."

I feel bad for RP, but what can he do? If he's getting selected even when he's playing badly (consistently), is that his fault for turning up and playing? Needs to be rested - he's had a hell of a 12 months with the RWC, 6 Nations and now this and I don't think he was ever mentally ready for it all. At this stage, only his defensive skills are keeping him anywhere near. He doesn't make the breaks that he used to, he's not place kicking and his decision making is all to pot.

But with no Biggar in the squad (WTF?!) who goes in at 10? Hook?! haven't really been following his game since he left Wales but have some bad memories of forward passes and missed kicks stored away. Maybe he's improved...

I don't think SW's comments are so bad though. All Welsh 10's get a good kicking at some point in their career. I think most (including RP himself) know he's now not up to the task, with the obvious exception of Howley of course...

"All Welsh 10s get a good kicking" - true, but not usually in public and from their captains.

As a forward, in situation like the wales pack were in during those last 2 minutes - you expect your scrum half to boss you around. You're there to take the ball up and secure it, that's your focus. For that short period, whether you're captain or not, that is when the SH becomes the boss as they can see the field and is best placed to call the shots. The SH is there to guide you round the park, pull you out of the ruck so you can set the pods up. What happened on saturday will be a learning curve for Webb, if Phillips had stayed on then the ball would not have left the ruck and this will be a valuable lesson to Webb on keeping the ball.

I dont know if anybody has said this already as I have skipped to the end becoming nauseous with the what ifs. The rugby game is OVER. So why the blame game? Warbs is one to talk isnt he? Is there some dark arts going on? He should have just shut up. Now where is he taking team morale? I always remember Bobby Robson when Newcastle had a good run in the Champions League getting knocked out in the semis " brilliant. Great ride. Let's go again"

I never liked Warburton's holier than thou stance over alcohol either. It was as though in his and other welsh managment pronoucements on their own impecable behaviour he was enjoying English misfortune. Smug and self righteous probably sums him up.

That could be just how you interpreted his comments, Triangulation. If he'd mentioned dwarves, then you'd have a point, but I don't think he did.

However, I do think that Warburton as a player and certainly as captain has been given too much credit for Wales's performances at the World Cup and in the Six Nations.