Where do England go from here?

The first 20 mins of the 2nd test showed the huge gulf between the sides. We were blown away by direct powerful running by big SA players taking route 1. England's desperate defence had us falling over each other in a state of shock. We can't hide from that no matter how well they got back in to the game in the second half. That means that (forget the 6Ns, that comp is second rate compared to the SH sides) if we are to compete at Ellis Park in the future then the coaches must make some changes in player development and selection.

First of all we must start to develop the big physical players at premiership/saxons level and bring them on to the first team. Too often we settle for nippy tiddlers that look good playing lesser opposition and overlook what it takes to beat SA in SA. Can anyone explain how on earth does Mears get in to the England side? Bismarck DuPlessis must laugh inside when he sees him.

I take my hat off to Gatland despite his annoying issues in the past he, being from the SH, recognises that to compete with them you must have a 'big' team with power right across the team. (yes, I know Halfpenney isn't big but I'd bet Gatland would play a bigger player if he could find a better option).

Gatland has taken a while to collect a big team together. It hasn't come over night but it is starting to bear fruit for Wales.

Looking ahead to the 3rd test I can only see SA turning on another 20 minute period of extreme power that will be enough to undo England. After Saturday, in the cool light of day there can be no other conclusion.

Lancaster is no fool. I expect him to learn very quickly from this series and start to put a long term plan in place. No doubt there will be the Banahan-esq failures along the way but it is the only way to success. Because let's be clear. IF you can't beat the SH sides then you can't win a RWC.

For me, I'd go with:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (we don't have anyone else )
5.Parling
6.Johnson (he's lucky to still be there though)
7.Robshaw (c)
8.Haskell (more power and more stamina)
9.Care (sadly Youngs is injured)
10.Flood
11.Monye (I don't really rate him but he can't be worse than Strettle)
12.Barritt (to organise the defence)
13.Manu
14.Ashton (looks brighter now Flood is back in the team)
15.Foden (with accompanying kicking practice)

16.T Youngs (what have we got to lose)
17.Marler (see Youngs comment)
18.Robson/Kitchener (whichever shows up better in the last mid week game)
19.Waldrom
20.Dickson
21.Goode (10 should only be changed in an emergency and he looked good when he came on at 15, his points kicking is decent enough)
22.Joseph (explosive pace against tired legs)

Our physicality issues will still remain in parts but at least we should get a nudge on at the scrum and the defence should work better.

Where do England go from here?

If I may make a joke first?
Home, surely their plane tickets have been booked?

Bismarck DuPlessis must laugh inside when he sees him

To be fair it was only a smile, and it was because he is a friendly guy.

Ok seriously.

Looking ahead to the 3rd test I can only see SA turning on another 20 minute period of extreme power that will be enough to undo England. After Saturday, in the cool light of day there can be no other conclusion

I disagree about next weekend. Frans Steyn is getting married, so chances are Wynand Olivier will play, bad, bad player.

Lambie might be injured, Zane Kirchner in his place, bad, bad player.

Ontop of that Meyer might want to experiment, and there in lies an opportuntiy for england.

I would hazard a guess that England will be in a good position to win this coming weekend.

The words are coming out all weird. Where are you now? When I need you.

Sorry I was hypnotise when I was teenager and when someone say "Where do we go from here?" I have to sing this line and stand on one leg for an hour.

Maybe they can think about bring in the CIA, the tanks and the royal marines to blow them away?

anotherworldofpain wrote:
Maybe they can think about bring in the CIA, the tanks and the royal marines to blow them away?

It won't work: between SA farmers and SA taxi drivers, they'll have that lot covered!

We can't beat the boks by playing them at their own game. SA are far better at the tactical kicking/pressure game than England, so it didn't make sense for them to select an attacking backline, and then kick all of the first-phase ball away.

England need more power in the second and back rows, and to stop kicking the ball away all the time.

Advocating big players is completely missing the mark. If you look at the stats there is very little difference bewteen the height and weight of the 2 teams. Creating an even stronger gym monkey culture would make the problem even worse. England need to focus on skills. With greater skill comes the ability to operate under pressure. England were simply too inaccurate and made too many wrong decisions. The players do not need to be bigger and using Mears who played 5 mins as an example is again off the mark. The players have yet to learn how hard they need to play and that comes from experience and again greater skill. The only physical element needed is greater fitness. The 2003 team were the best because they were the fittest side in the world and we need to recapture that.

I agree with Hongkongcherry, the question is not whether you can curl 45 kg's, can you catch it?

HongKongCherry wrote:Advocating big players is completely missing the mark. If you look at the stats there is very little difference bewteen the height and weight of the 2 teams. Creating an even stronger gym monkey culture would make the problem even worse. England need to focus on skills. With greater skill comes the ability to operate under pressure. England were simply too inaccurate and made too many wrong decisions. The players do not need to be bigger and using Mears who played 5 mins as an example is again off the mark. The players have yet to learn how hard they need to play and that comes from experience and again greater skill. The only physical element needed is greater fitness. The 2003 team were the best because they were the fittest side in the world and we need to recapture that.

+1

HongKongCherry wrote:Advocating big players is completely missing the mark. If you look at the stats there is very little difference bewteen the height and weight of the 2 teams. Creating an even stronger gym monkey culture would make the problem even worse. England need to focus on skills. With greater skill comes the ability to operate under pressure. England were simply too inaccurate and made too many wrong decisions. The players do not need to be bigger and using Mears who played 5 mins as an example is again off the mark. The players have yet to learn how hard they need to play and that comes from experience and again greater skill. The only physical element needed is greater fitness. The 2003 team were the best because they were the fittest side in the world and we need to recapture that.

+2 HKC

An example to prove HKC's point. Same height and only half a stone between Tom Youngs and Lee Mears. Yet one of them is like a cannon ball in the loose and the other is like a limpet. The difference? Aggression, body angle and pace. It's not size that matters, it's how you use what is at your disposal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Youngs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Mears

Sadly England are currently lacking aggression. Hartley and Marler are being far to nice, they didn't get their place in the England pecking order by being nice! Where's the sodding aggression and bl00dy mindedness. Same for the rest of the pack, as currently only Corbs and Cole will be going home with their heads held high.

HongKongCherry wrote:Advocating big players is completely missing the mark. If you look at the stats there is very little difference bewteen the height and weight of the 2 teams. Creating an even stronger gym monkey culture would make the problem even worse. England need to focus on skills. With greater skill comes the ability to operate under pressure. England were simply too inaccurate and made too many wrong decisions. The players do not need to be bigger and using Mears who played 5 mins as an example is again off the mark. The players have yet to learn how hard they need to play and that comes from experience and again greater skill. The only physical element needed is greater fitness. The 2003 team were the best because they were the fittest side in the world and we need to recapture that.

+ 3

I agree we need to increase the power of the pack, though as I said on another thread there are some promising signs - notably the scrum is improving and we are developing a decent rolling maul again.

Whilst Hartley still looks a little lacksadaisical right now, him and Webber offer power in both tight and loose. If Grey and Youngs can develop we could have serious competition.

Corbs and Marler a good options at tight head, backed up by Mullan and Wood.

Tighthead is an issue with Cole the only person anywhere near the standard needed.

Botha and Parling are just not up to it sadly. Hopefully we can develop the likes of Attwood, Lawes, Kitchener etc into real locks.

Behind the scrum I want skill first and foremost.

LT, I've thought we were steadily improving behind the pack. Youngs and Flood worked well in the second test, the centres looked composed even if they were starved of good ball in the first test and Brown showed form in the first test with the rejuvination of Ashton in the second and the solidarity of Foden we have good options. There just needs to be a tweak here or there and that backline will be set to go.

The pack does need serious work though. A massive mountain of a second rower needs to be found to occupy the number 4 shirt, preferably of a size that would cause Martin Johnson to be shadow when standing next to him. A number 8 who is built like a tank with a turbo charged engine and bottomless supply of fuel would be nice as well (Jordan Crane could fill that role when fully fit). Otherwise we just have to wait for Croft and Wood to regain fitness and bring them back in with Kvesic becomming Robshaw's understudy.

formerly known as Sam

With Croft & Wood so strong in the lineout could it be plausible to play 2 grinders in the 2nd row such as Garvey & Lawes??? Lawes needs to bulk up a lot mind... he's built too much like a basketball player and it showed when he was out muscled by Scott Williams in the 6N for the deciding try.

fa0019 wrote:formerly known as Sam

With Croft & Wood so strong in the lineout could it be plausible to play 2 grinders in the 2nd row such as Garvey & Lawes??? Lawes needs to bulk up a lot mind... he's built too much like a basketball player and it showed when he was out muscled by Scott Williams in the 6N for the deciding try.

Will we never hear the end of this. Lawes was injured or returning to match fitness from injury when this happened and actually i think it only happened because he had a lapse in concentration. It was sod all to do with upper body strength. That said i'd like to see him a few kgs heavier.

HKC and others of a similar vein. You appear to be holding your head in the sand. Did you not witness not one but two 20 minute power plays by SA? One in each match. They were enough to win the games. England had no answer to the onslaughts. They fell off tackles and when they did complete a tackle the Boks were well over the tackle line going forward.

Some on this board have criticised England players, Robshaw included, for missing tackles. It was because of the power they faced which they could not match. For each 20 min period England players ran around like headless chickens in a panic.

England must find more power! That generally means they need bigger players. Coming a hearty second is great with some people but losing against the SH sides is something we will continue to do unless we develop a special type of player that can stop them on the gainline.

Sadly most of this current bunch are no where near it.

englandglory4ever that's why Wales were relient on one of their smaller players to score against England and virtually secure the 6N this is why their team of giants has been out thought and out muscled at the breakdown by the smaller Wallabies?

Size isn't everything, though England do need some more weight and power in the engine room. fa0019 that's an idea that's been suggested before but if Wood and Croft are playing that means dropping Robshaw which would effect our tackle count or moving Robshaw to 8 which would seriously effect our carrying capabilities. There's also the issues of calling th lineout as Croft and Wood are primarily jumpers with Parling and Day calling the lineouts for them at their clubs.

Power (energy) is a function of mass x square of speed.
SA forwards did not have a significant kgs mass advantage vs England Forwards. The brutal power SA showed came in the form of speed of run / impact in the carry/ collision,speed of offload, speed of arriving support. The answer for Engand is not more mass. More speed, more thought, more skill are needed.
Interestingly, during England's 2nd half revival, the Bokke pack appeared to be more knackered than England in the close quarter scrum / arm wrestle phases, maybe understandably, given the energy the Boks burnt off in those first 25 minutes. But by then, the job had already been truly done by the Boks.

..to purgatory. where we have been for the last 8 years.

Also better position in the run- it's not power that makes yards, it's power across an area. Better body position--> smaller area in which the power is focussed --> more pressure (well, not quite pressure but whatever power/area is) --> more yielded ground

Or better yet more intelligence on the ball to draw the man spot the gap and have someone on a nice angle to run into open space.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Also better position in the run- it's not power that makes yards, it's power across an area. Better body position--> smaller area in which the power is focussed --> more pressure (well, not quite pressure but whatever power/area is) --> more yielded ground

And maintaining the legdrive in the tackle situation.

I saw many a time SA would even on defence, legdrive on to tackle the opposition back.

Momentum doesn't stop at the initial contact point.

biltongbek wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Also better position in the run- it's not power that makes yards, it's power across an area. Better body position--> smaller area in which the power is focussed --> more pressure (well, not quite pressure but whatever power/area is) --> more yielded ground

And maintaining the legdrive in the tackle situation.

I saw many a time SA would even on defence, legdrive on to tackle the opposition back.

Momentum doesn't stop at the initial contact point.

this has ALWAYS been a bugbear of mine, most NH players are rubbish at this and unlike SH players do not do this in tandem with white line fever. This is what makes the All Blacks so deadly, both in reality and the mentality of the opposition. You FEAR the AB runners.

When was the last time we saw a player in an English shirt take the ball into contact, legs pumping and wiggling like buggery in an attempt to either A: escape or B: draw as many defenders in as possible. (edit: actually, you're all gonna hate me for this, but I remember Bannahan doing this a few times, more looking for the off load than the break away though)

coupled with decent support and half an eye for the offload this is 'tails up' rugby a la france (80s).

When was the last time we saw a player in an English shirt take the ball into contact, legs pumping and wiggling like buggery in an attempt to either A: escape or B: draw as many defenders in as possible

Alex Goode in the last test? Stepped one and then bounces through the second tackle and scrabbles to his feet and gets brought down by the third tackler. I very much hope he's in the team for the third test.

Manu keeps the legs pumping and tries to motor through, it's rare you see him go down without a fight (and without at least two tacklers hanging off him).

Given that last time england went to SA they lost 58 10 and 55 22 maybe they should head home congratulating themselves on their improved defence.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

When was the last time we saw a player in an English shirt take the ball into contact, legs pumping and wiggling like buggery in an attempt to either A: escape or B: draw as many defenders in as possible

Alex Goode in the last test? Stepped one and then bounces through the second tackle and scrabbles to his feet and gets brought down by the third tackler. I very much hope he's in the team for the third test.

Manu keeps the legs pumping and tries to motor through, it's rare you see him go down without a fight (and without at least two tacklers hanging off him).

Right but the problem is when he drives through theres usually a bunch of england players standing back applauding him rather than exploiting the space. The lack of support runners ( something the much maligned smith actually got England working on for a while) or players turning him into a maul is shiocking. Even if it was in his mentality to look for the offload or pass how often is it there? Theres very little point in having battering rams in midfield if noones going to use it.
See also Tindall + Noon
Instead this weekend we saw him trying desperately to follow all the instructions he was given on how to play like a 12 which just didnt suit him.

If England are going to play Tuilagi they have to accept who he is and what hes good at

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Given that last time england went to SA they lost 58 10 and 55 22 maybe they should head home congratulating themselves on their improved defence.

Wasn't that a second string team though?

If England are going to play Tuilagi they have to accept who he is and what hes good at

+1

The guy is pace and power personified. He is not subtle or that creative for other people and he will only give passes/offloads when there is somebody there he believes will advance the play. He will not throw speculative passes to just anybody (you can tell Cockerill is his head coach), so England need to spend some time with Ashton and whoever is going to be on the other wing playing with Manu and learning how and when he pickes his lines so they can appear on his shoulder.

If he is smashing into the two Boks centres that means there's a massive hole in their defence, get someone running off him or get the backrow in fast so we have good ball. Don't stand off and wait for him to hit the floor! We are under using our best attacking weapon in years through basic laziness.

I agree with PSW

""If he is smashing into the two Boks centres that means there's a massive hole in their defence, get someone running off him or get the backrow in fast so we have good ball. Don't stand off and wait for him to hit the floor! We are under using our best attacking weapon in years through basic laziness"
yes good point.
+2
Ashton is normally a good shoulder runner, just need to get these 2 guys (+ other wingers) drilled to undertand each other better. I do have a problem with Tui not looking up to pass often enough. This could confuse the oppos if he randomly worked in a crafty pass, to add to his bullocking skills.

biltongbek wrote:

Where do England go from here?

Lambie might be injured, Zane Kirchner in his place, bad, bad player.

Ontop of that Meyer might want to experiment, and there in lies an opportuntiy for england.

I would hazard a guess that England will be in a good position to win this coming weekend.

Not so fast Biltong, Aplon looks to be starting at 15 is the Sharks Lamb is injured . Joe Piertesen on the bench which suggests an expansive approach this weekend. If meyer sticks to the plan of playing the best team available then it should be a good game. I would prefer Aplon on the wing and Joe Pietesen at 15 ,that combination while not the biggest will coz havoc to Englands defense if given half the chance. Both are excellent counterattacking runners and Aplons left boot can come in handy so too Piertesens even better right boot.

In the forwards expect Jacques Potgieter to get a run in place of Willem Alberts and with Spies looking better every game our loose trio will be better balanced. The only problem as you rightfully state is Wynand Olivier

Ashton is normally a good shoulder runner, just need to get these 2 guys (+ other wingers) drilled to undertand each other better. I do have a problem with Tui not looking up to pass often enough. This could confuse the oppos if he randomly worked in a crafty pass, to add to his bullocking skills

I'm not sure if the Boks will be fooled George. Manu did the two bullocking runs then a crafty switch move with Amorosino at WR in 2009 leaving two embarrassed Boks rooted to the spot as the tiny Argentinian fullback finished under the posts. Olivier was one of those Boks and was left pretty red faced after being given the run around all night by an 18 year old academy 13 playing out of position at 12.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Ashton is normally a good shoulder runner, just need to get these 2 guys (+ other wingers) drilled to undertand each other better. I do have a problem with Tui not looking up to pass often enough. This could confuse the oppos if he randomly worked in a crafty pass, to add to his bullocking skills

I'm not sure if the Boks will be fooled George. Manu did the two bullocking runs then a crafty switch move with Amorosino at WR in 2009 leaving two embarrassed Boks rooted to the spot as the tiny Argentinian fullback finished under the posts. Olivier was one of those Boks and was left pretty red faced after being given the run around all night by an 18 year old academy 13 playing out of position at 12.

seeing as the fullback for that game was Earl Rose i'm not suprised

Sam
I meant in Tui's game generally, not just on this RSA tour. He is mostly pretty easy to read, if taking a few defenders to deal with him (which has its merit). But some variation could cause constructive havoc.

I agree about the skills over size. For me the All Blacks are consistently the best because, as well as size and power, they also have the best skills from 1 to 15 (and the subs). When the All Blacks pick up the pace and up the tempo of the game they are still able to complete passes in front of players for them to run onto. When Wales, for example, pick up the pace the passes start to go onto the shoe laces, behind players, too high, etc. That's just a lack of skill, and a lack of performing the skill at pace, and the attack is slowed down.

Similary, I read an interesting thing a while back. When Leinster, widely regarded as the most successful European club side in the last few years, set out their vision a few years back about what they wanted to do/be their only mission was "to be the best passing team in Europe", or words to that affect. Not size. Not power. Passing. They focused predominantly on skill. That is maybe why their style of play is often compared to the All Blacks. They're able to execute the skills at pace without breaking stride because they've practiced being able to pass with precision under pressure and at speed.

Skills + brawn = a very potent mixture!

Bullsbok the SA team for that night:

South Africa Rose (Viljoen, 70); Ndungane, de Jongh, Olivier (Bosman, 64), Nokwe; Pienaar, Adams (Hougaard, 55); Steenkamp (van der Merwe 43), Ralepelle (Maku, 20), du Pleissis, Rossouw (Hargreaves 60), Bekker, Potgeiter, Raubenheimer (Deysel, 49), Johnson

It was still a great game and a great offload by Manu to set up the Tigers score. The little kick that set up the Boks try was pretty tasty as well.

Sam
I meant in Tui's game generally, not just on this RSA tour. He is mostly pretty easy to read, if taking a few defenders to deal with him (which has its merit). But some variation could cause constructive havoc.

George I completely agree was just joking around a bit. Big guys smashing into the defensive line and taking 2 or 3 tacklers to drag them down is great, but really only of any use if that fragmentation of the opposition defence is siezed upon and exploited. There needs to be a swift follow up attack or an offload to exploit the hard work of the guy crashing through to make it worthwhile. I think Manu would much prefer to run, see the quick tap and the sidestep in the second test that made 50m. The issues are that there isn't a lot of room allowed from the SA defence who shut him down quickly and when there is (like on the 50m break) there's no one there with him. He's good but not good enough to run through the entire Springbok team from his own 22.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Bullsbok the SA team for that night:

South Africa Rose (Viljoen, 70); Ndungane, de Jongh, Olivier (Bosman, 64), Nokwe; Pienaar, Adams (Hougaard, 55); Steenkamp (van der Merwe 43), Ralepelle (Maku, 20), du Pleissis, Rossouw (Hargreaves 60), Bekker, Potgeiter, Raubenheimer (Deysel, 49), Johnson

It was still a great game and a great offload by Manu to set up the Tigers score. The little kick that set up the Boks try was pretty tasty as well.

Sam
I meant in Tui's game generally, not just on this RSA tour. He is mostly pretty easy to read, if taking a few defenders to deal with him (which has its merit). But some variation could cause constructive havoc.

George I completely agree was just joking around a bit. Big guys smashing into the defensive line and taking 2 or 3 tacklers to drag them down is great, but really only of any use if that fragmentation of the opposition defence is siezed upon and exploited. There needs to be a swift follow up attack or an offload to exploit the hard work of the guy crashing through to make it worthwhile. I think Manu would much prefer to run, see the quick tap and the sidestep in the second test that made 50m. The issues are that there isn't a lot of room allowed from the SA defence who shut him down quickly and when there is (like on the 50m break) there's no one there with him. He's good but not good enough to run through the entire Springbok team from his own 22.

If Tuilagi had a clever 12 he'd be unstoppable. at the moment England use him to bash when he could be more effective running through gaps as stated by most here.Whats the point in having your best attacking weapon on the floor in a ruck when you could use a forward to make the intial bash then bring in Tuilagi to break through the line at pace which he's very capable of doing.he needs to be getting the ball at pace at an angle not standing static with everyone expecting him to produce something from nothing.i'm glad he's got Farrell and Barritt on his inside not Carter,

Tuilagi is the ONLY hard runner in the whole England set-up. SA have about 14 in any team they care to put out. When you have that many all singing off the same hymn sheet it just leaves the England boys saying their prayers.

England need to find many more. Brave losers is all we will be if we don't. What gets me is that even Wales have got the message and have several.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Given that last time england went to SA they lost 58 10 and 55 22 maybe they should head home congratulating themselves on their improved defence.

Or rather their improved choice of where to eat.