England Player Elimination

Right-io then since Goal 1 of the tour (winning the series) is gone let us now turn our attention to one of the other goals - finding out who has the raw materials to play for England and just as relevantly : who doesn't.

For me the England careers of the following players should be terminated forthwith without notice and on a permanent basis. They should be flown home immediately and replaced.....

Mears (too small and not good enough)
Parling (ineffectual outside the lineout. The new borthwick)
Botha (not good enough. misses tackles - no carrying and not smart enough)
Johnson ("A star" for effort and guts but we have 10 better options when fit and prospects)
Strettle (simply not good enough to get away with being 80 something kilos dripping wet)
Waldrom (too old now)
Anthony Allen ( if he was good enough he would've played T2)
Ugo Monye (too old now. his ship has sailed)

And to be singled out as no more than possibles for the AIs and put on temporary banishment until they develop their game a hell of a lot more….

Farrell (decision making, speed work with Margot Wells, weights, intensive kicking (from hand) and passing practice)
Morgan (stop eating all the pies and get on the tread mill)
Wade ( defence)
Tom Youngs (lineout throwing)
Barrit (passing and speed work with Margot Wells)

The rest need to be told just how disappointing they have been and given a clear individual plan to follow in the lead up to the AIs.

Lawes, Croft and Wood need the same plans. All 3 of them need to spend a lot of time in the gymnasium and told they might be welcome back in for the AIs.

Garvey, Steffon Armitage, Johnny May and Billy Twelvetrees need to be looked at as inclusions. 36 and Manu could be the combo we need.

Before anyone starts bleating to me about this all being a bit unfair and harsh, save your words. If you are not good enough then that is it.

We are England rugby. We are not here to provide careers to substandards. We are here to win and there is zero room for sentiment.

We will not win Test Matches on the basis of "deserving to win" them. We will win Test Matches that we are good enough to TAKE by force. The same applies to selection.

Unless you are so good that you cannot not be selected then you are gone.

I agree with most of that, not sure who you'd have left to play at 8 though, Haskell maybe?

Strettle doesn't appear to have done anything at all since returning to the England fold. I'd also question how long JTH is going to be around. Barritt's injury should have opened a door for him, and it can't be good for him that England decided to look elsewhere.

From an outsiders POV the ones who are out of their depth are certainly Parling and Botha.

The centre pairing needs to be sorted out sooner rather than later as that is a huge weak area IMO.

Farrell will get there I am sure about that as will Morgan

Maybe harsh on Parling, at least until we have better options. Definitely harsh on Allen- playing him at 13 in the midweeker meant he didn't get a chance to shine for T2!

Agree with most of it though, now having watched the game. Not sure 36 is the answer though, we'll see how he deals with playing at Glos. Seems more style than substance to me. All I'm doing now is praying Robshaw and Care and Marler get away from SA uninjured

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe harsh on Parling, at least until we have better options. Definitely harsh on Allen- playing him at 13 in the midweeker meant he didn't get a chance to shine for T2!

Agree with most of it though, now having watched the game. Not sure 36 is the answer though, we'll see how he deals with playing at Glos. Seems more style than substance to me. All I'm doing now is praying Robshaw and Care and Marler get away from SA uninjured

Unlikely the way things are going.

We're about to suffer the indignity of losing to second XV from the saffers as they look to build depth ahead of the Quad Nations.

God we're awfull.

Agree with all of that except ditching Allen. He has been so unlucky with selection over the last few years, especially considering the lack of any other options at 12. I think he is a far better all round player than Barritt or JTH and really deserves an opportunity to start at 12 in the final test and perhaps in the Autumn if another candidate fails to put his hand up before then. He has all the skills required, there are no real weaknesses in his game.

Twelvetrees is the other option at 12 for the Autumn but it depends how he settles in at Gloucester. Leicester is a very unique environment and players have often struggled moving to/from them. If the move goes well then the Glos midfield of Burns, 36, Trinder could be very good. They all have the individual talent. If they work well together I'd be tempted to get them all involved ASAP.

I'd also ditch Flood as I have said on here many times, no doubt there will be few agreements though. He's utterly useless and the sooner we move on the better as far as I'm concerned. Ford, Burns and Farrell are the future.

I'd agree with most of that to be frank Tri. With the definitive exceptions of Allen and Parling.

Parling's line-out work has been excellent especially with the jumpers available to him, and his contribution in the loose has indeed been below par. The same however, may be said of every member of the pack and you can't ditch the whole lot.

Sometimes a players needs to develop in international rugby, it's just about spotting those that can do so and those that can't.

Allen played well out of position at times in the first mid-weeker and his contribution grew as the game wore on. I don't think i'd write him off yet and he's only 25.

I'd certainly be showing Robson and a few of the others in the pack for the mid week games the door however. On their performance last week no one looked up to test level bar Waldrom. But I agree he's too old now.

Triangulation

Meyer will not choose a 2nd XV. Frans Steyn out in not a 2nd XV... SA have the same injury problems as ENG do. ENG left behind Croft, Lawes.. SA left Bekker & Schalk behind.

Out of the current squad a 2nd team would look a little like this

Beast, Strauss, Kruger, Flip, Etzebeth, Coetzee, Potgieter, Daniel, Pienaar, Lambie, Basson, Maisiekind, Engelbrecht, Aplon, Joe Pietersen

That would not be competitive vs. ENG.

If England want to be a world class side they need a better 10 than Flood. Having said that though, I can't see that there's any better options at the moment. Farrell is limited, and I'm not sure how he's going to round out his game playing for Sarries.

on the subject of 12 though, Dan Bowden is english qualified next year

Not sure why people are slamming Flood.. I thought he did pretty well with what he had. It was up front where ENG looked 'all at sea'. Far better than Farrell although I think we may see them together at 10 & 12 come next Saturday.

ENG need a bigger front five... after that I think there team is in good shape. They lack bulk esp at lock. At prop bar Corbs & Cole they look very weak and there is no obvious hooker to challenge Hartley.

ENG should really look to see if Garvey can impose himself onto the test scene.

Let Flood show Farrell the ropes for a season or 2, play him perhaps at 12. With Farrell running the side, they look impotent. At least with Flood they have a chance.

I would say one thing however... I have serious doubts about Robshaw. I just think ENG have better players and that you can't have a captain not pulling his weight. He may have added good morale to the team but with guys like Wood, Haskell, Armitage all in the mix for his jersey it looks a little unclear into why ENG should continue to pick him.

He was probably the worst player on the pitch last Saturday esp in the tight.... he was bounced all day by the boks. It reminds me of the Will Carling days... beyond 94 ENG had far better options than Carling yet they stuck with him until 96/97.

I get the impression England supporters are trying to find a Carter. Nobody has a Carter.

You have Farrel who is more in the mould of Morne Steyn, or you have Flood that is in the mould of Patrick Lambie, pick one and adapt your gameplan, or pick a gameplan and then a flyhalf, neither of them are that bad.

I've been saying since the EPS was announced that Botha shouldn't be anywhere near the team, but was shouted down by the SAracens supporters.

Yeah, well argue with it now. He's proved just how poor he is in my opinion. And Farrell? Bench option at best.

fa0019 wrote:Not sure why people are slamming Flood.. I thought he did pretty well with what he had. It was up front where ENG looked 'all at sea'. Far better than Farrell although I think we may see them together at 10 & 12 come next Saturday.

ENG need a bigger front five... after that I think there team is in good shape. They lack bulk esp at lock. At prop bar Corbs & Cole they look very weak and there is no obvious hooker to challenge Hartley.

ENG should really look to see if Garvey can impose himself onto the test scene.

Let Flood show Farrell the ropes for a season or 2, play him perhaps at 12. With Farrell running the side, they look impotent. At least with Flood they have a chance.

I would say one thing however... I have serious doubts about Robshaw. I just think ENG have better players and that you can't have a captain not pulling his weight. He may have added good morale to the team but with guys like Wood, Haskell, Armitage all in the mix for his jersey it looks a little unclear into why ENG should continue to pick him.

He was probably the worst player on the pitch last Saturday esp in the tight.... he was bounced all day by the boks. It reminds me of the Will Carling days... beyond 94 ENG had far better options than Carling yet they stuck with him until 96/97.

Yeah but he was good the week before, has been arguably one of the back rowers of the Premiership this season, has previously worked incredibly hard and well in the tight for Quins and England and is improving drastically at 7 to the extent that both at Club and Country level he has put in some great performances. I don't think we have any feasibly better options at 7 except a man who has taken himself out of contention by playing in France, and the only clearly better option at 6/7 is injured and may play alongside him and shouldn't theoretically be a good partner for Croft (it's Wood btw and I'm not convinced he's better). He played well through the 6N as backed up by pundits, stats and fans here. He improved too. Basically, I think you are so wrong on Robshaw it hurts, and I'm more inclined to say Wood should captain instead of him rather than play 7 instead of him. It reads like you are basing this on one game. How can one judge a player on one match only? Plus, having watched the match, I'd say he had a poor match, v. poor for his standards, but there were 3-4 equally poor England forwards in the tight, i.e. at least half the pack. I'm going to go calm down now

biltongbek wrote:I get the impression England supporters are trying to find a Carter. Nobody has a Carter.

You have Farrel who is more in the mould of Morne Steyn, or you have Flood that is in the mould of Patrick Lambie, pick one and adapt your gameplan, or pick a gameplan and then a flyhalf, neither of them are that bad.

+1

biltongbek

You're right.. both are good enough but Flood is the more polished and tackling wise he actually isn't that bad either, he's no JW but he completes near all of his tackles.

Flyhalf is not where ENG have their problems... throw in Carter and ENG would still have got beat up in the pack.. they still should have lost by 20+ points had SA gone for the kill.

Nah, Youngs nearly won the game on his lonesome, I genuinely think that it was close enough across all areas that Carter could have won it on his own

FA, I agree, hence my point, they aren't that bad, pick your style and use the flyhalf most suited. Simples.

As far as their pack is concerned I think they are over reacting.


Give these guys another year and they will be in a different class.

They are still adapting to the intensity necessary at this level.

Saracens have really shafted England over Farrell senior. We really could have done with him in SA. Hopefully the RFU dont forget this young fry of treachery.

biltongbek

not so sure about the pack going to get that much better. The locks are old/not going to make the next world cup. If anything they are as good as they can be, right now.

I remember everyone raving about Courtney Lawes in 2010... I even read a comment from Sean Fitzpatrick saying that Lawes was destined to become the next force in world rugby to follow Bakkies, Thorn, Johnson, Weise etc. But he just gets outmuscled by significantly smaller players.

In terms of the captain... he's done well to galvanise a good team spirit in the team but has his performances ever touched one where you would single him out for praise????
I can't ever recall a match when I've seen him as a standout player and I certainly can't remember seeing a player so weak in defence as Robshaw on Saturday... to be honest it looked like a difference in class between him ahd the boks.... good test players don't miss half a dozen tackles in a match... even when they're off form.

biltongbek wrote:FA, I agree, hence my point, they aren't that bad, pick your style and use the flyhalf most suited. Simples.

As far as their pack is concerned I think they are over reacting.


Give these guys another year and they will be in a different class.

They are still adapting to the intensity necessary at this level.

You would say that wouldnt you Biltong?

We could just trundle along uselessly with an under powered second row forever. You'd like that wouldn't you? That would really float your boat.

NO. This sort of apologetic approach stops now.

No other major nations accept all this "learning journey to rebuilding towards developing a team that might be one day competetive with the bounce of the ball going our way when we front up"

And neither the feck should we!

Look, I have said a number of times Botha is not an international class lock, I have been criticised for saying that, apart from that the pack is not as bad as you are all saying.

Just look at how well they did when we took Bismarck, Jannie and Alberts off.

I'd also ditch Flood as I have said on here many times, no doubt there will be few agreements though. He's utterly useless and the sooner we move on the better as far as I'm concerned. Ford, Burns and Farrell are the future.

I'm sorry Rightleftwinger but Flood is anything but 'utterly useless'. The guy is the best 10 England have and in the last two months of the season (when he wasn't injured) he was easily the best 10 in the AP. The guy came in having not started a game in the Lancaster reign (criminally in most people's opinion) and he not only kicked 100% off the tee but he gave us an attacking plaform and still kicked the stupid tactical system England have selected better than Farrell (kick long and force the Boks to return it, at least Flood puts it down the side of the pitch and narrows the kicking angle).

Of the three you wish to replace him with:

Burns - basically a younger and inferior Flood, in a couple of years I think he'll be an excellent attacking 10 but currently the only area he is better than Flood in is pace.
Farrell - Mr Defensive has been shown up by Flood on this tour. His passing and attacking skills are barely AP level let alone test level. He is compared to Wilko due to his ice calm, great kicking stats and defence but Wilko wasn't good enough at the 2011 RWC and Farrell is going to have to add more strings to his bow.
Ford - yes, the most likely England 10 of the future. He is still and will remain Flood's understudy for Tigers next season though. He combines the best passing game of any player in the AP with a great tactical kicking boot but despite his commitment in the tackle is still in need of toughening up. His kicking percentages are currently more Championship than Premiership.

In short all three are inferior to Flood and the last position we currently need to worry about is 10. Well until the issues surrounding 2,3,4,5,8,11,12 are sorted.

Correct. Flood stays for the forseeable future. NOT up for discussion.

Botha should just be told now so that he can have a nice catch up with his mates etc without the need to fly back to the uk.

Looks like Robshaw's just eliminated himself - from T3 any. Wonder how many players we'll have standing.

fa0019 wrote:biltongbek

not so sure about the pack going to get that much better. The locks are old/not going to make the next world cup. If anything they are as good as they can be, right now.

I remember everyone raving about Courtney Lawes in 2010... I even read a comment from Sean Fitzpatrick saying that Lawes was destined to become the next force in world rugby to follow Bakkies, Thorn, Johnson, Weise etc. But he just gets outmuscled by significantly smaller players.

In terms of the captain... he's done well to galvanise a good team spirit in the team but has his performances ever touched one where you would single him out for praise????
I can't ever recall a match when I've seen him as a standout player and I certainly can't remember seeing a player so weak in defence as Robshaw on Saturday... to be honest it looked like a difference in class between him ahd the boks.... good test players don't miss half a dozen tackles in a match... even when they're off form.

yes I have- last week in fact. He's playing number 7 and he was doing a 7s job in the breakdown, which we won comfortably in the first half with him making several vital steals as he has for the last few months in the AP, whilst still making 16 tackles no misses, by the far the most of any England player (Someone on here quoted over 20. I don't know where from but any source of stats is probably better than espn) and linking up and leading the team. In fact every game he has played for England since being captain, here are his stats-

In 7 matches, Robshaw has passed the ball 34 times (5 times a game out of 12 receptions per game, I bet that's a better ratio of ball received to spread than Farrell), carried 54 for 68m (only 1.25m per carry, hard yards, 7.5 carries per game), only beating one defender, with 2 offloads. He has given up the ball 3 times in contact or due to handling errors. He has made 90 tackles and missed 5, 4 of which were on Saturday, which is 13 tackles each match at a completion rate of 95%. Before last match it was 99%. He has won 4 throws in the lineout and 1 more on opposition throw in. He has given away only 5 penalties, less than 1 a game, 3 of which were on Saturday and 2 of which were plain wrong. No tries or assists or cards of any sort. Not. Bad. And to call him defensively weak when he was the key player with Barritt in our defence in the Spring is just wrong. Demonstrably wrong. You say good players don't miss half a dozen tackles in a test match. He hasn't missed half a dozen tackles in test matches, period

In the 6N he made over half of the back row's tackles and 10% of England's tackles in the 6N. He made 64 tackles. He missed 1.

Johnson got plaudits for last week with a comparably bad tackle rate as Robshaw's this week- 10 made, 3 missed, and he is playing at 6!

Ah FFS!!! Now Chris is bloody injured too. Stop injuring our players!

I've discussed Flood on here many times over the last few weeks. I realise not many seem to agree and that's fine. I just don't rate him. He's not the same player for England as for Leicester. He is physically and mentally weak, a poor defender, an average kicker, and only performs to any sort of standard when the pack are dominant and Youngs is on form. I think he should have gone a long time ago, and now I'd far rather see the younger players given the opportunities as soon as possible.

I'm starting to agree about the 2nd rowers.....although I do think Lawes is a miss, (I've never really seen him out muscled as someone said above.....perhaps that one SA game when he was about 12)....I can not buy into this nonsense about our props tho' really can't see it at all. Marler's not quite ready yet but Cole and Corbs?? They are looking good in the scrums for a coupla young 'uns.
SA however have bismark. We have hartley. A good, aggressive player but lacking the intensity of his SA counterpart. Infact, intensity seems to be where SA have it. The first 20 mins on saturday they were so intense, direct and unrelenting I honestly thought there would be a cricket score!!

Got to agree with CJ, Robshaw certainly has something of Worsley about him. He just loves to tackle and even in what was probably his worst performance of the season last weekend he was still the best English backrower and the best English forward outside of the front row (step forward Mr Cole on that score). I think Robshaw stood out more in the 6N because he had Croft who really covered for Robshaw's weaknesses (lineout, pace and carrying) and offered a great footballing skill set.

Robshaw's performance in the first test was one of the best 7 performances for England in the last few years. Possibly since Moody in '07. He's not even a player I rate that highly but you just can't argue he's played well for England.

ultra wrote:I'm starting to agree about the 2nd rowers.....although I do think Lawes is a miss, (I've never really seen him out muscled as someone said above.....perhaps that one SA game when he was about 12)....I can not buy into this nonsense about our props tho' really can't see it at all. Marler's not quite ready yet but Cole and Corbs?? They are looking good in the scrums for a coupla young 'uns.
SA however have bismark. We have hartley. A good, aggressive player but lacking the intensity of his SA counterpart. Infact, intensity seems to be where SA have it. The first 20 mins on saturday they were so intense, direct and unrelenting I honestly thought there would be a cricket score!!

To be perfectly honest, I also thought if this juggernaut of physicality and pace didn't stop there would be a big score, yet, once again it didn't last.

Robshaw carried his hand injury into T2 which might explain the drop off in tackle completion rate from his usual lofty standards.

Backrow needs to be

6. Fearns
7. Haskell
8. Morgan/Waldrom

In addition to my earlier stats post, here's how the other highly vaunted flankers performed this 6N-

Robshaw- 64 tackles, 5 games, 12.8 per game, 1 miss, 98%
Croft- 36 tackles, 5 games, 5.1 per match, 5 misses, 88%
Stroksoscsch- 12 tackles, 2 games, 6 per match, 2 misses, 86%
Rennie- 71 tackles, 5 matches, 14 per match, 8 misses, 90%
Barclay- 41 tackles, 5 matches (some subs), 8 per match, 2 misses, 95%
Warburton- 17 tackles, 3 matches, 5.7 per match, 2 misses, 89%
Lydiate- 43 tackles, 4 matches, 10.75 per match, 2 misses, 96%
R Jones- 24 tackles, 4 matches (mostly as a sub ), 6 per match, 3 misses, 89%
O'Brien- 44 tackles, 4 matches, 11 per match, 1 miss, 98% but < Robshaw's
Ferris- 63 tackles, 5 matches, 12.6 per match, 3 misses, 95%
Bonnaire- 37 tackles, 5 matches, 7.4 per match, 4 misses, 90%
Dusautoir- 77 tackles!, 5 matches, 15.4 per match, 1 miss!, 99%

So only Dusautoir, IRB player of the year and probably the most infamous tackler in international rugby today made more tackles per match in the 6N or at a higher completion rate. Even with his poor performance on Saturday, Robshaw still has better stats so far than most of these players in terms of defence! He doesn't carry like SOB or Ferris but he can work the breakdown and saying he isn't cut out at this level after one poor match in a poor team doesn't make sense!

ChequeredJersey wrote:In addition to my earlier stats post, here's how the other highly vaunted flankers performed this 6N-

Robshaw- 64 tackles, 5 games, 12.8 per game, 1 miss, 98%
Croft- 36 tackles, 5 games, 5.1 per match, 5 misses, 88%
Stroksoscsch- 12 tackles, 2 games, 6 per match, 2 misses, 86%
Rennie- 71 tackles, 5 matches, 14 per match, 8 misses, 90%
Barclay- 41 tackles, 5 matches (some subs), 8 per match, 2 misses, 95%
Warburton- 17 tackles, 3 matches, 5.7 per match, 2 misses, 89%
Lydiate- 43 tackles, 4 matches, 10.75 per match, 2 misses, 96%
R Jones- 24 tackles, 4 matches (mostly as a sub ), 6 per match, 3 misses, 89%
O'Brien- 44 tackles, 4 matches, 11 per match, 1 miss, 98% but < Robshaw's
Ferris- 63 tackles, 5 matches, 12.6 per match, 3 misses, 95%
Bonnaire- 37 tackles, 5 matches, 7.4 per match, 4 misses, 90%
Dusautoir- 77 tackles!, 5 matches, 15.4 per match, 1 miss!, 99%

So only Dusautoir, IRB player of the year and probably the most infamous tackler in international rugby today made more tackles per match in the 6N or at a higher completion rate. Even with his poor performance on Saturday, Robshaw still has better stats so far than most of these players in terms of defence! He doesn't carry like SOB or Ferris but he can work the breakdown and saying he isn't cut out at this level after one poor match in a poor team doesn't make sense!

Those are definitely some statistics backing up Robshaw. I really like Robshaw he gives everything and does the basics exceptionally well. England just need to sort out the rest of the backrow to maximise their effectiveness.

I was never the biggest fan of Robshaw, he was the best flanker in England for a few years before this season but never got a fair crack.

I honestly thought he'd struggle to step up, but fair play to him he's been ok, I mean he can't compare to the likes of Warburton, Rennie, Pocock etc with respects to impact in a game, but he has been solid enough and far better than I thought.

The thing with Robshaw though is that he does the basics extremely well. This allows the other backrow players to shine. Just look at Croft and Morgan during the Six Nations!

Also watch Quins with Robshaw playing and with him not playing. He adds a huge amount of drive to the team he captains and plays for. And some of his steals in recent months have been magic

Ok i agree many of the current tour squad have probably not done their international career future much good...

HOWEVER and its a big one and im going against everything i said in here recently.....

How many of the "young pretenders" or replacements back at home have put their hand up...or are actually ready? How many are their clubs first choice.


1) Mears - I wouldnt have taken him...however which players have been playing?
Youngs - No and cant throw.
Lindsay - Yes a great season...but is even worse at throwing.
Webber injured.
Jaimie George- Barely played and cant throw.
Gray - Probably the only one who hasnt been given a fair chance.
ANy others?

2) Parling - Think his criticism is actually down to the rest of the pack not doing their job. Parling is in their for his lineout and has done that job very well. I still personally want both my second rows to do the tough stuff aswell.
Botha - Yup not good enough.
I would add Palmer to the list aswell - his powers are on the wane.
Replacements:-
Garvey: Good ball carrier, huge guy. Hows his lineout work and hows his work in the tight - tackling and rucking.
Attwood - Form has been up and down...mostly the latter. Not been the player we saw in 2009....
Lawes - Injured most of the season.
Slater / Kitchener - Still developing not quite ready.
Launchbury - Awesome season...big powerful lad...injured on tour.
Others - still developing or like Hudson...missed their chance.

3) Johnson ("A star" for effort and guts but we have 10 better options when fit and prospects) I disagree on Premiership performances he has been one of the best 6's. Worth keeping in the squad to see how he goes. Its a tough place to mnake your debut.
Replacements -
Croft - Injured
Wood - Injured
Fearns - Unfit, ponderous and clumsy compared to the animal that first came to the attention of everyone.
Haskell - Like marmite...you like him or you dont...

4) Strettle - Dont think he's been helped by Sarries tactics. Not good enough for this level at the minute.
Replacments:
Wade - Defensive liability - another Varndell at then mo.
Monye - Suffered for form..but playing well is a big powerful guy.
Benjamin - Fast and powerful...and a Tiger so will improve.
Topsy Ojo - I rate highly...successive England managers dont.
Johnny May - Electric offensively...was SA the place to take a raw diamond?

5) Waldrom - Showed better than Morgan on Saturday but yes i would get rid.
Replacements:
Crane - Will he recover from a serious injury
Fearns - See above
Haskell - Is he a 6 or an 8?
Easter - Retired by lancaster...and hated by everyone..bar a few of us. Would have been perfect for that 2nd test.
Gray - How many games is he playing regularly.
York - Just moved to us maybe one to watch next season.
Guest - Missed the boat

6) Anthony Allen - Possibly missed the boat.
Replacements:
Tuilagi is a 13 not a 12.
Barritt - Injured. How will he go with the more offensive Flood next to him.
Turner Hall - Not quite making the level
James Fitzpatrick - Monsterously powerful...but does he have the skill level for the next level...im not sure. Certainly makes more yards than Barritt.
Powell - Dissapeared
Twelvetrees - hasnt been first choice and been inconsistent as a result.
Farrell - Young, and has no offensive game...which will not improve at Sarries. If he can improve that though he could be good.

Next seasons performances by these pretenders is going to make it HUGE season for the development of England - be it good or bad...

thebluesmancometh wrote:I was never the biggest fan of Robshaw, he was the best flanker in England for a few years before this season but never got a fair crack.

I honestly thought he'd struggle to step up, but fair play to him he's been ok, I mean he can't compare to the likes of Warburton, Rennie, Pocock etc with respects to impact in a game, but he has been solid enough and far better than I thought.

I compoletely disagree...his performance in the first test v SA was simply immense...and had he played to that level in the 2nd...i believe we could have been even closer to the Boks...

People are being really harsh on here, we should be looking at the positives a bit more like the spirit and refusal to give up. It was always going to be really rough on tour to south africa - only really special teams succeed (lions) even New Zealand struggle. The media drummed up the interest by saying it was a new south africa team with debutants in it, ok yes but sandwiched between a fearsome frontrow and a rampaging backrow. If I had to make a debut in a test match in the row I would pick either SA or NZ as I know I would have time to play myself in and concentrate on the basics - pushing in the scrum and jumping in the lineout leaving the carrying mostly to the backrow and having experienced guys dragging round in the tight. Simple facts Eng are naive and inexperienced with and unsettled xv but are showing the makings of a decent team-give them time and support and they will improve.

Garvey: Good ball carrier, huge guy. Hows his lineout work and hows his work in the tight - tackling and rucking.

He's won London Irish's defender of the year award two years running. Tackle completion rate was 95% in 10/11.

Yoda wrote:People are being really harsh on here, we should be looking at the positives a bit more like the spirit and refusal to give up. It was always going to be really rough on tour to south africa - only really special teams succeed (lions) even New Zealand struggle. The media drummed up the interest by saying it was a new south africa team with debutants in it, ok yes but sandwiched between a fearsome frontrow and a rampaging backrow. If I had to make a debut in a test match in the row I would pick either SA or NZ as I know I would have time to play myself in and concentrate on the basics - pushing in the scrum and jumping in the lineout leaving the carrying mostly to the backrow and having experienced guys dragging round in the tight. Simple facts Eng are naive and inexperienced with and unsettled xv but are showing the makings of a decent team-give them time and support and they will improve.

On the whole true, but some changes still need to be made

mawhis wrote:

Garvey: Good ball carrier, huge guy. Hows his lineout work and hows his work in the tight - tackling and rucking.

He's won London Irish's defender of the year award two years running. Tackle completion rate was 95% in 10/11.

Good stuff, so hes a strong defender...whats his rucking and scrummaging like?

biltongbek wrote:FA, I agree, hence my point, they aren't that bad, pick your style and use the flyhalf most suited. Simples.

As far as their pack is concerned I think they are over reacting.


Give these guys another year and they will be in a different class.

They are still adapting to the intensity necessary at this level.

You're being generous Biltong. I don't think any of this pack is going to reach that level of physicality. Corbs, Marler, Haskell all have the size and POTENTIAL. The rest, not convinced. Robshaw may adapt to this level, Cole is ok if we accept he's no carrier. Every single lock in that squad is absolute powder puff.

We DESPERATELY need to see if Garvey can step up, i was crying out for a few (non-serious) injuries in the locks to force Lancaster's hand. Robson, Parling, Botha, Palmer - no, no, no, no, no.

biltongbek wrote:Look, I have said a number of times Botha is not an international class lock, I have been criticised for saying that, apart from that the pack is not as bad as you are all saying.

Just look at how well they did when we took Bismarck, Jannie and Alberts off.

I believe that's called damning with faint praise Biltong

Hood, maybe I am just less critical than you guys.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mawhis wrote:

Garvey: Good ball carrier, huge guy. Hows his lineout work and hows his work in the tight - tackling and rucking.

He's won London Irish's defender of the year award two years running. Tackle completion rate was 95% in 10/11.

Good stuff, so hes a strong defender...whats his rucking and scrummaging like?

From what i've seen LI look a much better scrummaging side with him in the 2nd row.

He's been used in the back-row a bit as well with...mixed results. I think it's been due to injuries elsewhere but LI fans can put me right. it does give some indication of his work-rate.

On that point I find it hard to describe him. His work-rate has been lauded by people, and he does seem to make his tackles however from what i've seen he does sort of look knackered a fair bit. He never seems to have much explosiveness, you wouldn't describe him as dynamic, but it sort of doesn't matter. He flops on to rucks occasionally but seems to clean out very well, his presentation in the tackle is superb...the best thing is undoubtedly his carrying. It's not pacey or explosive as I say, but when he's on form he offers himself again and again and again. It's there that his work-rate looks VERY impressive. And even with a slow build up he seems to have the bulk to take people with him.

He may end up being horribly exposed at int. level, but he's our best chance of a genuine enforcer if we can get him super fit. I really think he has the greatest potential to solve our lightweight boiler room.

biltongbek wrote:Hood, maybe I am just less critical than you guys.

Don't know what you're talking about Biltong, I'm a regular sunshine and rainbows type here...

Biltong, you guys have an excellent quality of backrow players. What is your opinion on our backrow options and the balance thereof? If any other South Africans, Australians or New Zealanders want to chip in please do

Well I liked Croft and Morgan, and Robshaw, now I am confused because just about all of them are being criticesed for one thing or another.

I watched Croft and Morgan during the six nations and were impressed by them.

CJ, you must remember I look at baxkrows differently than anyone else. I don't beleive a pilferer is necessary.

If you have power, pace and skills on attack as a mixture and brutish defence I am happy, and preferably someone weighing around 110 kg

I don't really understand why Croft is falling so low in so many people's future reckoning. He is one of our few genuine world class players and was coming back to top form for England during the 6N. He surely deserves to be nailed on at 6 when fit.

Morgan has played the last 2 tests not at all match fit. Everybody needs to realise this. He should return to his 6N form when fit. Don't ditch a player for some average performances when he couldn't realistically be expected to do any better.

Robshaw has impressed everyone since the 6N and while he had his worst game on Saturday, it has become evident that he was carrying what sounds a significant injury. If I had a broken thumb I wouldn't fancy throwing my arms at Willem Alberts! It could be questioned whether he is one of the 2 best flankers when everyone is fit and playing well, but at the moment he is doing very well.

I think Tom Wood might push for a starting place but his game is similar in some aspects to Croft's so we may lose a bit of balance. I think they are different enough that there is a chance it could work out, and I think Croft and Wood are the 2 best players in their own right, so should be given a chance to try playing together if there is such an opportunity.

Haskell has proven his ability at test level and would be more than adequate on the bench to cover all 3 positions and provide physical impact.

For the next few years I think these guys will make up the core of the back row when available. People will say there is no 'proper 7', but like Biltong I do not really buy the theory that you cannot be successful without one. Both Robshaw and Wood are decent on the floor, Croft is brilliant in the wide spaces providing support to the carrier, while they are all fine linking play.

Anyway what is a 'proper 7' really? McCaw and Pocock are always the names touted but they are completely different players. I'd say McCaw is closer in style to Robshaw than to Pocock. All are fantastic players in their own right, but they are so different and the constant labelling of 7s annoys me. These days the roles are far more blurred and as long as you have class players who can cover all the necessary aspects of back row play between them, you will be fine.