England Player Elimination

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Right-io then since Goal 1 of the tour (winning the series) is gone let us now turn our attention to one of the other goals - finding out who has the raw materials to play for England and just as relevantly : who doesn't.

For me the England careers of the following players should be terminated forthwith without notice and on a permanent basis. They should be flown home immediately and replaced.....

Mears (too small and not good enough)
Parling (ineffectual outside the lineout. The new borthwick)
Botha (not good enough. misses tackles - no carrying and not smart enough)
Johnson ("A star" for effort and guts but we have 10 better options when fit and prospects)
Strettle (simply not good enough to get away with being 80 something kilos dripping wet)
Waldrom (too old now)
Anthony Allen ( if he was good enough he would've played T2)
Ugo Monye (too old now. his ship has sailed)

And to be singled out as no more than possibles for the AIs and put on temporary banishment until they develop their game a hell of a lot more….

Farrell (decision making, speed work with Margot Wells, weights, intensive kicking (from hand) and passing practice)
Morgan (stop eating all the pies and get on the tread mill)
Wade ( defence)
Tom Youngs (lineout throwing)
Barrit (passing and speed work with Margot Wells)

The rest need to be told just how disappointing they have been and given a clear individual plan to follow in the lead up to the AIs.

Lawes, Croft and Wood need the same plans. All 3 of them need to spend a lot of time in the gymnasium and told they might be welcome back in for the AIs.

Garvey, Steffon Armitage, Johnny May and Billy Twelvetrees need to be looked at as inclusions. 36 and Manu could be the combo we need.

Before anyone starts bleating to me about this all being a bit unfair and harsh, save your words. If you are not good enough then that is it.

We are England rugby. We are not here to provide careers to substandards. We are here to win and there is zero room for sentiment.

We will not win Test Matches on the basis of "deserving to win" them. We will win Test Matches that we are good enough to TAKE by force. The same applies to selection.

Unless you are so good that you cannot not be selected then you are gone.

Bit out of leftfield, but I would happily go with Parling and Olly Kohn (or Shaw) in 3rd test. Need some old school power in second row to soak up some of the SA intensity.

Sure they are focusing on the future blah blah, but you need to win games too.

Triangulation wrote:Saracens have really shafted England over Farrell senior. We really could have done with him in SA. Hopefully the RFU dont forget this young fry of treachery.

Absolute rubbish. Please elaborate on this ridiculous unproved slander.

I'll tell you something for free, when the game starts to break up and a bit of individual attacking nouse is required, you can tell who the Saracens players are. They're the ones standing around looking bewildered, moving sideways or coughing up ball in any number of new and exciting ways.

Technically it's libel, beshocked.
Equo, you are being unfair, you just have to look at Goode to see that Sarries have some talented attacking players. They are just not always utilised that way, by Saracens or by England

Seems to me that England are really undermined by our 2nd row. Both locks are below international class, which may be a bit harsh, but we are certainly missing one big enforcer. We need this big nasty hard man to add grunt in the scrums and to be a focal point for gain line battles. If we had such a person then it is possible that Botha could even fulfill the other 2nd row position as he certainly does perform around the park. The combo between Botha, Parling or Palmer is just too lacking in nastiness. Morgan has not been up there on this tour, but is one for the future. Plus the centres......we have options at 13 but not much at 12. o with a decent 4 and 12 England would be a lot better, but until then we will struggle.

Well let's bloody play Allen at 12 then

hugehandoff wrote:Seems to me that England are really undermined by our 2nd row. Both locks are below international class, which may be a bit harsh, but we are certainly missing one big enforcer. We need this big nasty hard man to add grunt in the scrums and to be a focal point for gain line battles. If we had such a person then it is possible that Botha could even fulfill the other 2nd row position as he certainly does perform around the park. The combo between Botha, Parling or Palmer is just too lacking in nastiness. Morgan has not been up there on this tour, but is one for the future. Plus the centres......we have options at 13 but not much at 12. o with a decent 4 and 12 England would be a lot better, but until then we will struggle.

Botha reminds me of one of those dippy long haired sheep dogs that bounds about enthusiastically but without real purpose...

ChequeredJersey wrote:Technically it's libel, beshocked.
Equo, you are being unfair, you just have to look at Goode to see that Sarries have some talented attacking players. They are just not always utilised that way, by Saracens or by England

Sue me! Is "truth" a defence in England and Wales or does one also need to show that disclosure is in the public interest? Pretty straightforward anyway isnt it. Farrell clearly wanted England, England clearly wanted Farell - Saracens got in the way. The rest is just detail beshocked. Stop being so precious.

Now back to the rugby - yeah Allen should play 12 but frankly if none of our coaches over the last 8 years think he is up to it - he probably isnt. Send him back to the little leagues.

As to the poster before who said "but we dont have anyone better than...mears etc etc"

I dont believe that is true at all. Even if it was (and it isnt) i would say sod it we play the next young promising cab of the rank.

LET THE ELIMINATIONS COMMENCE.

It should be done in such a way that everyone is left in no uncertain terms what is good enough and what is not good enough. Reasons should be given to each player in an open letter.

Yes. I am angry.

Yeah, forgive me if I don't trust any of our coaches, all forwards I might add, in their opinion of what makes a decent 12. If SL doesn't think Allen can play international rugby, fine, that's his call. But don't drag him to SA, and then play him out of position in the midweekers whilst his club team mate with whom he has an excellent partnership and he complements better than any other option on tour gets played in his position, where the partner is not comfortable, when the other options in his position get injured. That's a bit disrespectful to the players, frankly.

CJ I think Mike Catt might know a thing or two about being a decent 12. I happen to agree on the Allen point though, he's not a big guy but he throws himself at everything that moves in an opposition shirt and organises a decent defence. He should have started the second test but hindsight is always in 20/20.

Barritt will be back for the third test and I'm looking forward to finally seeing him line up alongside Flood. That could be a very good 10/12 combo right there. Especially with Manu at 13. It would be nice if our best 10/12/13 actually got the chance to play together wouldn't it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:CJ I think Mike Catt might know a thing or two about being a decent 12. I happen to agree on the Allen point though, he's not a big guy but he throws himself at everything that moves in an opposition shirt and organises a decent defence. He should have started the second test but hindsight is always in 20/20.

Barritt will be back for the third test and I'm looking forward to finally seeing him line up alongside Flood. That could be a very good 10/12 combo right there. Especially with Manu at 13. It would be nice if our best 10/12/13 actually got the chance to play together wouldn't it.

On another post i called for Allen at 12 for T2. It didnt happen and now i want him out. I wasnt there at triaining etc and Catt knows his onions.

See you later Allen thanks for nothing.

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Technically it's libel, beshocked.
Equo, you are being unfair, you just have to look at Goode to see that Sarries have some talented attacking players. They are just not always utilised that way, by Saracens or by England

Sue me! Is "truth" a defence in England and Wales or does one also need to show that disclosure is in the public interest? Pretty straightforward anyway isnt it. Farrell clearly wanted England, England clearly wanted Farell - Saracens got in the way. The rest is just detail beshocked. Stop being so precious.

Now back to the rugby - yeah Allen should play 12 but frankly if none of our coaches over the last 8 years think he is up to it - he probably isnt. Send him back to the little leagues.

As to the poster before who said "but we dont have anyone better than...mears etc etc"

I dont believe that is true at all. Even if it was (and it isnt) i would say sod it we play the next young promising cab of the rank.

LET THE ELIMINATIONS COMMENCE.

It should be done in such a way that everyone is left in no uncertain terms what is good enough and what is not good enough. Reasons should be given to each player in an open letter.

Yes. I am angry.

Such arrogance to say a blatant lie is the truth.

You know absolutely nothing about the situation of Farrell so stop pretending you do.

The RFU have actually shafted Saracens. You evidently don't seem to understand that Saracens have invested a hell of a lot of time and effort into Farrell. Saracens looked after him when he first came to the club - he didn't play much - he was either injured or away with England.

The relationship with Farrell had been good. Farrell was made head coach of Saracens, he had signed a long term contract to stay at the club. Evidently a contract and long term commitment means FA to you.

Farrell Jr joined the Sarries academy - has made a big impact for the club. Future signings were made because of Farrell - Ashton and Tomkins.

Saracens was being built around Farrell. Farrell was lent to England because it is a real dream to coach your country. It was made clear by Saracens that it was only temporary.

RFU decided to negotiate for Farrell's release from his Saracens contract during the period of arguably their two most important games. Saracens consequently lost both games.

Farrell releases statement saying he will honour his contract with Saracens.

A few weeks later Farrell resigns despite Saracens looking after him all these years.

Now, now we all know that Farrell Snr came to some agreement with Sarries post 6N to see out the season and then leave.

On another post i called for Allen at 12 for T2. It didnt happen and now i want him out. I wasnt there at triaining etc and Catt knows his onions.

See you later Allen thanks for nothing.

Perhaps not Tri, he just had a great game against the SA Baabaas North. My MOTM with two assists and a try from his unfavoured OC position.

Triangulation wrote:On another post i called for Allen at 12 for T2. It didnt happen and now i want him out. I wasnt there at triaining etc and Catt knows his onions.

See you later Allen thanks for nothing.

The Tigers's coaches clearly rate Allen... and what has Catt done as a coach compared to them? He might know his onions, he has yet to show he can pick and coach a good back line though.
His failure to get picked might be less of a comment on Allen than that England need to move on from picking mediocre backs coaches from London Irish - the last one was average at club level and out of his depth at international level, the current one was average at club level and I'm not impressed so far with how he has got the backs playing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Now, now we all know that Farrell Snr came to some agreement with Sarries post 6N to see out the season and then leave.

On another post i called for Allen at 12 for T2. It didnt happen and now i want him out. I wasnt there at triaining etc and Catt knows his onions.

See you later Allen thanks for nothing.

Perhaps not Tri, he just had a great game against the SA Baabaas North. My MOTM with two assists and a try from his unfavoured OC position.

Sigh I expect better from you Sam. The reality is no one knows what happened. Don't pretend you know any better unless you have heard from a RFU official.

Seriously Sam? He had an OK game, no way was he MOTM though. He did a few good things, but I also saw him get tossed around a bit in the first half and these guys are no where near as physical as the Bok test side.

Care
Flood
Foden
Allan
Manu
Ashton
Goode

Will hopefully be the third test backline.

Beschocked I wouldn't trust an RFU official if I heard their side of the story anyway, I've met a few and that work away from HQ and their stories of some that do work from Twickers is not particularly inspiring.

The facts point to a deal being paid post 6N. Let's list them.

1) Farrell turns down any England overture post 6N despite being very keen to join Lancaster's coaching team initially.
2) Anouncement he is off is only made after the end of the season and with no attempt by England to bring in another defence based coach.
3) Sarries announce his replacement on the same day showing that no negociations between management/coaching/board of directors was needed and the club already had their option arranged and contract agreed.

It's hardly like what happened to Glos

formerly known as Sam wrote:Beschocked I wouldn't trust an RFU official if I heard their side of the story anyway, I've met a few and that work away from HQ and their stories of some that do work from Twickers is not particularly inspiring.

The facts point to a deal being paid post 6N. Let's list them.

1) Farrell turns down any England overture post 6N despite being very keen to join Lancaster's coaching team initially.
2) Anouncement he is off is only made after the end of the season and with no attempt by England to bring in another defence based coach.
3) Sarries announce his replacement on the same day showing that no negociations between management/coaching/board of directors was needed and the club already had their option arranged and contract agreed.

Farrell turning down England is no surprise as he was under contract. Farrell made a u turn. That's not normal.

You think the RFU care if the season's over or not. They conducted negotiations during the most inconvenient time.
If they did know about it as you believe why not bring it out in the open? Why not just say that Farrell was leaving? I certainly have got the impression that the resignation was a shock. Having an option ready is no surprise. Sorrell looked after the attack during the 6nations. A contingency plan was obviously in place.

I have heard from more reliable sources than anything you can come up with that the resignation was a shock.

You think the RFU care if the season's over or not. They conducted negotiations during the most inconvenient time.

Post the tournament when they had stated they'd make their coaching decisions months before?

If they did know about it as you believe why not bring it out in the open? Why not just say that Farrell was leaving?

I'm sure Sarries wanted it kept quiet so as not to disrupt the squads preperations for the end of season run in.

Triangulation wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Technically it's libel, beshocked.
Equo, you are being unfair, you just have to look at Goode to see that Sarries have some talented attacking players. They are just not always utilised that way, by Saracens or by England

Sue me! Is "truth" a defence in England and Wales or does one also need to show that disclosure is in the public interest? Pretty straightforward anyway isnt it. Farrell clearly wanted England, England clearly wanted Farell - Saracens got in the way. The rest is just detail beshocked. Stop being so precious.

Now back to the rugby - yeah Allen should play 12 but frankly if none of our coaches over the last 8 years think he is up to it - he probably isnt. Send him back to the little leagues.

As to the poster before who said "but we dont have anyone better than...mears etc etc"

I dont believe that is true at all. Even if it was (and it isnt) i would say sod it we play the next young promising cab of the rank.

LET THE ELIMINATIONS COMMENCE.

It should be done in such a way that everyone is left in no uncertain terms what is good enough and what is not good enough. Reasons should be given to each player in an open letter.

Yes. I am angry.

I assume your refering to me there.

As i said I wouldnt have selected Mears, Botha...Robson etc..infact probably half of this squad.

However i was merely stating that half those names being bounced about at present...even by myself actually...have barely played for their clubs, or have been in dire form...Attwood for example...

As i also said on another thread...THIS coming season is going be HUGE for England as the kids being touted about - Tom Youngs, Lindsay, kitchener, May, Wade, Joseph, Kvesic, Launchbury, Garvey and the older injured or out of form players - Croft, Wood, Attwood, Fearns (Fitness) and Morgan ( Fitness) have all got a chance of cementing places in the England team...if they can really step up and play top class for their clubs...

Check out Defrocked getting his knickers all in a twist!

Equo good to see you still doing your best be as obnoxious as possible.

So by your reasoning if it was only sarries players that lost us the test? Fantastic deduction after all Flood was ment to ensure that our backs scored try's for fun, rather than Farrell.

How about some proper objective comments?

A lot of players did not perform and the selected players will ALL need to perform at there best for us to win

Be realised that if Marler and Care get injured on Saturday Quins will have lost pretty much all our best players

Knackeredknees wrote:Equo good to see you still doing your best be as obnoxious as possible.

So by your reasoning if it was only sarries players that lost us the test? Fantastic deduction after all Flood was ment to ensure that our backs scored try's for fun, rather than Farrell.

How about some proper objective comments?

A lot of players did not perform and the selected players will ALL need to perform at there best for us to win

Oh look, its the other SAracens supporter, another 2 more and you'll have enough to beat your home attendance average at Vickerage Rd.

Equo, can we please lay off the same old nonsense, it doesn't bring anything to the debate.

Equo, this isn't Italian football, we are supposed to be friendly here and rivalries between clubs are meant to be mature and taken care of on the field

Equo Troiano wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:Equo good to see you still doing your best be as obnoxious as possible.

So by your reasoning if it was only sarries players that lost us the test? Fantastic deduction after all Flood was ment to ensure that our backs scored try's for fun, rather than Farrell.

How about some proper objective comments?

A lot of players did not perform and the selected players will ALL need to perform at there best for us to win

Oh look, its the other SAracens supporter, another 2 more and you'll have enough to beat your home attendance average at Vickerage Rd.

Yyyaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn

I think you really deep down love sarries as you spend all you time and effort on here talking about us and our players.

Welcome to the family

biltongbek wrote:Equo, can we please lay off the same old nonsense, it doesn't bring anything to the debate.

Nor did Beshocked's outburst really, but hey ho.

However, you like it

Knackeredknees wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:Equo good to see you still doing your best be as obnoxious as possible.

So by your reasoning if it was only sarries players that lost us the test? Fantastic deduction after all Flood was ment to ensure that our backs scored try's for fun, rather than Farrell.

How about some proper objective comments?

A lot of players did not perform and the selected players will ALL need to perform at there best for us to win

Oh look, its the other SAracens supporter, another 2 more and you'll have enough to beat your home attendance average at Vickerage Rd.

Yyyaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn

I think you really deep down love sarries as you spend all you time and effort on here talking about us and our players.

Welcome to the family

Well, when a player is as bad as Botha (did you see him last night? My God, it was emabarassing) I feel obligated to express my opinion regarding his continual and baffling selection.

Welcome to your family, wow, that makes 5 of us...

So were a few others!

So where do I send your Fez?

Knackeredknees wrote:So were a few others!

So where do I send your Fez?

Could you put it just up your back side passage for safe keeping please? Ta

yappysnap wrote:Care
Flood
Foden
Allan
Manu
Ashton
Goode

Will hopefully be the third test backline.

I would be happey enough with this line but if Allen is not selected at 12 to start, then what is the point of him. He must have been a HUGE BIG FAT disappointment in training or he has done unspeakable things to someone's sister/wife/gf/daughter

I have seent he boks side for this weekend and i think we can win. Whether we are good enough to take it on the day is another thing altogether.

There is a sticky for the third test with the Springbok team announced.

Maybe they played him at 13 in training? I still think the set up (wrongly), together with several other countries, thinks a modern IC has to be Ma'a Nonu.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Maybe they played him at 13 in training? I still think the set up (wrongly), together with several other countries, thinks a modern IC has to be Ma'a Nonu.

I guess if you have a gifted play maker at 10 and a decent running option at 13 then a battering ram at 12 is fine, as the fly half can just bypass him if they want quick ball. Also i guess it helps the fly half out in defence to have a lump alongside to clear up any mistakes. But IMO with centres it inside/outside isn't such a big issue as people make out, as long as there is a ballence between them.

That does appear to be the way they are going. But Nonu/SBW and Roberts are the only giant ICs in international rugby. Most teams play with an averaged size skilful player and it works fine. Even the ABs considered playing Carter at 12 this summer, and may do so in future to accommodate Cruden. The idea of 16+ stone centres has gotten in the heads of the England coaches it seems. That's the only rationalisation I can think of for ignoring Allen all this time. Maybe they will give Twelvetrees a chance as he is that big, but he also has some creativity and skill, could be a solution.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

You think the RFU care if the season's over or not. They conducted negotiations during the most inconvenient time.

Post the tournament when they had stated they'd make their coaching decisions months before?

If they did know about it as you believe why not bring it out in the open? Why not just say that Farrell was leaving?

I'm sure Sarries wanted it kept quiet so as not to disrupt the squads preperations for the end of season run in.

Sort of defeats the object when the RFU conducted talks during the period of Saracen's most important matches of the season. Waiting a couple of weeks would have been much more understanding.

It's hardly quiet when everyone knew Farrell's future was being discussed during that period. It was plastered all over the media.
Disrupting preparation with speculation is not keeping things quiet!

Back to this specific topic I feel the Sarries players are the scapegoats. Sure most haven't performed well but it's a team game.

Farrell gets a slating despite being only 20 and having unrealistic pressure on his shoulders. He hasn't been great but I am sure can iron out his weaknesses.

Botha is a stop gap - no more no less.Other England 2nd rows have hardly been banging down the door for selection.

Strettle is off the pace admittedly. Can he recover his mojo? Who knows?

Where's the glaring quality which should replace them?
England have been overpowered and outmuscled. That's everyone's problem.

From a neutral POV I think Botha is way out of his depth at this level.

As for Farrell I thought it was only us Welsh who built our No10s up to then slag him off soon as things start to go wrong.

farrell is a young lad who will learn an awful lot from this tour and will be a big part of Englands future palns

Agree with both those points Bedford.

What I would say is that a lot of the annoyance about Farrel is that he was in front of an obviously superior player and it's apparent to everyone what his limitations are, but still Lancaster started him in a game we had to attack in.

He has a lot of potential but you have to wonder if he's been a bit rushed so far.

bedfordwelsh wrote:From a neutral POV I think Botha is way out of his depth at this level.

As for Farrell I thought it was only us Welsh who built our No10s up to then slag him off soon as things start to go wrong.

farrell is a young lad who will learn an awful lot from this tour and will be a big part of Englands future palns

A stop gap replacement was required to replace the injured Lawes, who doesn't need to bang on the door, because he's already on the inside. Not that I think Lawes is the silver bullet England need in the second row, but seriously, anyone, ANYONE would be better than the 'challenged' Botha. If Botha was indeed a stop gap, what was the problem with giving the likes of Attwood or Garvey a run out? Okay, they're inexperienced, but have agression, dog and have displayed nouse at club level. As opposed to Botha, who probably has to ask Graham Rowntree to tie his boot laces for him before they run out.

I feel that the criticism of the Saracens contingent is largely justified. They work well together at club level, but when anything other than operating like an automaton is required, they look lost. Botha is thick as mince, Farrell (yes I KNOW he's young) offers very little apart from a cool head and goal kicking ability, Strettle is woefully out of form, Hodgeson plays well enough against lesser opposition but creates little out of hand at top level. Okay Barritt and goode have been 'acceptable' and based on that I would say that they're probably the only two Saracens players that should be in the squad, maybe Farrell too.

The fact is there are plenty of players banging on the door (witness the matches against the SA Barbarians side) and an over reliance on certain players is stifling England's game. Take out the trash I say.

Equo Troiano wrote:

A stop gap replacement was required to replace the injured Lawes, who doesn't need to bang on the door, because he's already on the inside. Not that I think Lawes is the silver bullet England need in the second row, but seriously, anyone, ANYONE would be better than the 'challenged' Botha. If Botha was indeed a stop gap, what was the problem with giving the likes of Attwood or Garvey a run out? Okay, they're inexperienced, but have agression, dog and have displayed nouse at club level. As opposed to Botha, who probably has to ask Graham Rowntree to tie his boot laces for him before they run out.

I feel that the criticism of the Saracens contingent is largely justified. They work well together at club level, but when anything other than operating like an automaton is required, they look lost. Botha is thick as mince, Farrell (yes I KNOW he's young) offers very little apart from a cool head and goal kicking ability, Strettle is woefully out of form, Hodgeson plays well enough against lesser opposition but creates little out of hand at top level. Okay Barritt and goode have been 'acceptable' and based on that I would say that they're probably the only two Saracens players that should be in the squad, maybe Farrell too.

The fact is there are plenty of players banging on the door (witness the matches against the SA Barbarians side) and an over reliance on certain players is stifling England's game. Take out the trash I say.

Jesus will you change the bloody record! The only largely justified criticism is largely from you!!

You only pick out the sarries players for criticism, ignoring the fact the only two players who can be considered above criticism so far have been Cole and Youngs. We're the Saracens players the only reason we lost? Was the lack of carrying and yards made by all 8 of the pack all Botha's fault? Was the fact none neither of the wings scored Strettle's fault. I do appoligise for the fact that Owen Farrell is after what 8 or 9 caps is not playing like Dan Carter. But I'm glad you deem Goode and Barritt "acceptable" that is most gracious of you.

What happened did a sarries fan/player run off with your wife/mum/sister/girlfriend and that's why you feel you have to have a go at every chance justified or not?

Time to grow up and remove that large bag of chips on your shoulder and view the game objectively, you never know you may even like it.

Knackeredknees wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

A stop gap replacement was required to replace the injured Lawes, who doesn't need to bang on the door, because he's already on the inside. Not that I think Lawes is the silver bullet England need in the second row, but seriously, anyone, ANYONE would be better than the 'challenged' Botha. If Botha was indeed a stop gap, what was the problem with giving the likes of Attwood or Garvey a run out? Okay, they're inexperienced, but have agression, dog and have displayed nouse at club level. As opposed to Botha, who probably has to ask Graham Rowntree to tie his boot laces for him before they run out.

I feel that the criticism of the Saracens contingent is largely justified. They work well together at club level, but when anything other than operating like an automaton is required, they look lost. Botha is thick as mince, Farrell (yes I KNOW he's young) offers very little apart from a cool head and goal kicking ability, Strettle is woefully out of form, Hodgeson plays well enough against lesser opposition but creates little out of hand at top level. Okay Barritt and goode have been 'acceptable' and based on that I would say that they're probably the only two Saracens players that should be in the squad, maybe Farrell too.

The fact is there are plenty of players banging on the door (witness the matches against the SA Barbarians side) and an over reliance on certain players is stifling England's game. Take out the trash I say.

Jesus will you change the bloody record! The only largely justified criticism is largely from you!!

You only pick out the sarries players for criticism, ignoring the fact the only two players who can be considered above criticism so far have been Cole and Youngs. We're the Saracens players the only reason we lost? Was the lack of carrying and yards made by all 8 of the pack all Botha's fault? Was the fact none neither of the wings scored Strettle's fault. I do appoligise for the fact that Owen Farrell is after what 8 or 9 caps is not playing like Dan Carter. But I'm glad you deem Goode and Barritt "acceptable" that is most gracious of you.

What happened did a sarries fan/player run off with your wife/mum/sister/girlfriend and that's why you feel you have to have a go at every chance justified or not?

Time to grow up and remove that large bag of chips on your shoulder and view the game objectively, you never know you may even like it.

Equo Troiano wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:

A stop gap replacement was required to replace the injured Lawes, who doesn't need to bang on the door, because he's already on the inside. Not that I think Lawes is the silver bullet England need in the second row, but seriously, anyone, ANYONE would be better than the 'challenged' Botha. If Botha was indeed a stop gap, what was the problem with giving the likes of Attwood or Garvey a run out? Okay, they're inexperienced, but have agression, dog and have displayed nouse at club level. As opposed to Botha, who probably has to ask Graham Rowntree to tie his boot laces for him before they run out.

I feel that the criticism of the Saracens contingent is largely justified. They work well together at club level, but when anything other than operating like an automaton is required, they look lost. Botha is thick as mince, Farrell (yes I KNOW he's young) offers very little apart from a cool head and goal kicking ability, Strettle is woefully out of form, Hodgeson plays well enough against lesser opposition but creates little out of hand at top level. Okay Barritt and goode have been 'acceptable' and based on that I would say that they're probably the only two Saracens players that should be in the squad, maybe Farrell too.

The fact is there are plenty of players banging on the door (witness the matches against the SA Barbarians side) and an over reliance on certain players is stifling England's game. Take out the trash I say.

Jesus will you change the bloody record! The only largely justified criticism is largely from you!!

You only pick out the sarries players for criticism, ignoring the fact the only two players who can be considered above criticism so far have been Cole and Youngs. We're the Saracens players the only reason we lost? Was the lack of carrying and yards made by all 8 of the pack all Botha's fault? Was the fact none neither of the wings scored Strettle's fault. I do appoligise for the fact that Owen Farrell is after what 8 or 9 caps is not playing like Dan Carter. But I'm glad you deem Goode and Barritt "acceptable" that is most gracious of you.

What happened did a sarries fan/player run off with your wife/mum/sister/girlfriend and that's why you feel you have to have a go at every chance justified or not?

Time to grow up and remove that large bag of chips on your shoulder and view the game objectively, you never know you may even like it.

So very precious these SAracens fans... (both of them)..

Maybe you should look at the stats that biltong put up on Manu in the match thread on a player not performing well, before criticizing players?

All I can say is thank god the other Tigers fans are a lot more reasonable and bring a lot more to any debate or conversation than you manage.

So, its alright for others to question the ability of your precious, precious boys, but not me.

Do get over yourself.

Hope you're keeping that fez warm for me...

But others do it objectively as well the others in the side as well, including your untouchable tigers.

It is safe, just not sure I've got one big enough to fit

Knackeredknees wrote:But others do it objectively as well the others in the side as well, including your untouchable tigers.

It is safe, just not sure I've got one big enough to fit

Hey look, Goode has made it into the starting 22. All the rest are at best warming the bench, funny old thing isn't it. Its almost as if they weren't good enough to be there...

Equo Troiano wrote:So, its alright for others to question the ability of your precious, precious boys, but not me.

Do get over yourself.

Hope you're keeping that fez warm for me...

Perhaps if you were a little more balanced in your approach towards your never ending criticism of anything Saracens your opinions wiill hold more value, don't you think?

You have been on this crusade for longer than it takes for a star to be born.

Just saying.