Westwood & the elusive first major

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So, another good challenge from our Lee ends with a Sunday tail off. No issues with it, course was beastly and many other top names did the same. But at 39, are we ever going to see the big W in the major column that Westy deserves?

Monty couldn't do it, and it still irks me. Garcia seems to have fallen by the weigh side in recent years too.

Majors are so competitive now, and as this weekend shows, it is not just the big boys in the mix.

Stars like Donald, Westwood and even Rose are all yet to win one and I worry that as a career develops into it's prime like Westwood’s has, then perhaps they have built up some psychological walls in their own minds.

Darren Clarke should give them all hope, of course, but really hope Westwood can bag one in next couple years.

Which of our top golfers do we think will get there, eventually?

Strewth, I wouldn't begin to judge Monty by Tigers standard. I'd take Els as a barometer. Played around and won around the world including majors, also made Monty his matchplay bunny.
Els was/is a great. Monty doesn't come close to Els for me so how far down do you go to still be a great ?

Great is an over used word, to me its defined by rareness, so to be a great you have to have won multiple majors, been consistent over a lont period of time and have won the world over.
Anyone can win one major like baker-finch, Hamilton etc, plenty ordinary golfers like o'meara, lyle, cabrera and Andy north have won two and even the village idiot Harrington has three.

To be a true genuine great you probably need a couple of dozen tour wins and at least four majors. So the likes of Mickelson, faldo, ballesteros and reluctantly the man sausage with the stupid name himself are greats.

dup post

is world class or european class better then legendary or great then SR?

Greatness isnt defined by wins for me-Norman was my example before of a great with 2. I think if monty had got two he would have been close to greatness, and if westy can get a couple or more he will put him self in that class(lol). Alongside the pmicks and ells of this world.

Tiger is beyond great- in fact beyond legendary, alongside Jack

Being a great is better than being world class obviously.
You can be world class for a season or so, it doesnt make you a great of the sport.

I don't believe in legendary as a descriptor.

you can be great for season.

Of course, you can be 'great' for a season, but that doesn't make you 'a great'.

I remember when David Howell was great for a season, a truly world class season, but he'll never be a great.

correct.

Bernard Gallagher, Dale Hayes, Peter Oosterhuis, Bernard Hunt, Christy O'Connor, Tommy Horton, Neil Coles, Guy Hunt, John O'Leary, Peter Butler, Brian Huggett, Neil Coles, Ken Bousfield, Maurice Bembridge, Ronan Rafferty.

They were all guys who won tournaments, titles, orders of merit, and some people (like me) remember their names.

Sadly they won't be known in a few years time, when I - and my generation - are gaga. They didn't win major titles unfortunately.

Poulter, Westwood, Donald, Garcia, Casey, Karlsson, Stenson, Montgomerie, Rose - they'll be known as the great players who didn't win majors unless they get their act together.

Rory McIlroy needs to get his head and his act together, or he'll be the Orville Moody, Lou Graham or Jerry Pate of the 21st century.

Fortunately Neil Coles and Himself enjoy careers recognised by the World Golf Hall Of Fame, perhaps compensation for neither completing any Major Championship other than The Open.

Hope generations to come do not diminish the careers of either because of being excluded from, or unable to travel to, the three US Majors.

It's bizarre the way these discussions go off on tangents such as discussing the intelligence levels of various golfers. I'm sure I read a profile of Lee Westwood once where it said that one or both of his parents are teachers. Apparently he was always really good in school, particularly at Maths. That's not particularly relevant to anything but it would go against the view of one or two here who seem to think he's not the brightest.

Only a true village idiot could possibly describe Padraig Harrington in that way. He's clearly one of the smartest guys out there. He can certainly overthink things at times but it is his mind that has been the single biggest factor in all his success. Also, Sandy Lyle is one of the most naturally talented players ever. Unfortunately, he lost his game far too early and failed to achieve what he could have but he was never ordinary.

George1507 wrote:...or Jerry Pate of the 21st century.

Jerry Pate. What happened to him?? Always thought he had a superb swing and looked as if he was set for a stellar career.

tinmar- i might be wrong but no one has called westy or poddy stupid.

However over thinking is a trait shown by 'losers' and sometimes the more intellegent you are the more you over think.

On a further point, I'd love to see Lee Westwood win a Major. Nobody really 'deserves' anything but in many ways he 'deserves' one more than most. The pressure can get to him though and he almost tries too hard. For me, the final round of the US Open was a demonstration of why Padraig Harrington has three and Lee has none. Simply put, Padraig seemed to be enjoying himself far more and really relishing the challenge. He just fell short in the end but he has a knack for playing his best golf on Sunday in a Major which Lee is struggling to match.

I've tackled a couple of others here before about the amazing misconceptions that some people still seem to have about Padraig Harrington's career. For some reason, some people seem to think that he has had a couple of good years where he won Majors and little else. I've seen him bracketed along with Paul Lawrie, Todd Hamilton and a few others and someone here said that if Westwood wins a couple of Majors that he would be way ahead of Harrington. It's not that difficult to compare players careers on the internet so why people can't do this I will never know. If Westwood wins a couple of Majors he would be bracketed right alongside Harrington and a few others like Goosen, Stewart and Crenshaw to name just three off the top of my head. Look at tournament wins and overall Major performances and it's not possible to come to any other reasonable conclusion.

Cink, Lawrie, the list could go on and on with fine professionals who've won majors.

But winning THREE majors as Harrington has puts him in some rare air. Give him his due.

well poddy won the first one he ever had a real chance of winning- and then he could relax. i think most will agree that westy is the better golfer on top form and consitant form..

but fact is poddy has 3 majors, westy has none- and thats really all that matters.Poddy goes in the books as a top golfer, westy goes down as a nearly man if he doesnt win one.. I think many feel as though poddy was just there at the right time for his majors (tiger out) and everyoine else was still reeling from him.. Probally not a fair assement but there you go..poddy is down about 15 events on westy as well overall. thats alot of wins and westy offcourse has been a no.1 golfer as well. Major records very comparable mind- which is the main point(top 10's top 5's)- but i think we all know that even if westy doesnt win any majors he has possibly 15 more wins in him and another 10 top 10's in majors, i think we are all abit reluctant to say that about poddy!!

Shotrock wrote:Cink, Lawrie, the list could go on and on with fine professionals who've won majors.

But winning THREE majors as Harrington has puts him in some rare air. Give him his due.

Yes, but's it's a lot more than that as well. He's had 10 Top 5 finishes in Majors and spent well over 300 weeks in the Top 10 in the World Rankings. He's also won the European Order of Merit once and finished in the Top 3 in the rankings about five times not including the years he won his Majors. People thinking that Westwood is on a higher level is pretty incredible, in fairness.

tinmar read my post if you honestly believe that.

everyone knows that over the carrers westy has been above poddy and that is with a massive slump in the middle. Westys record is superiorin everything bar the major wins- but all the same the major wins trump everything- naturally! poddy deserves his dues. But the fact is if westy did win a few - westy will go down as a true great- and above poddy- I dont wanna sound unfair to poddy but that really is the fact of it

Didn't the c0ck smoker Woods miss the cut at Carnoustie when Harrington won?

wasnt woods injured?

mystiroakey - I don't know why you'd think that at all. There have only been two Majors so far this year and Padraig has been Top 10 in both of them. If he can hit the ball at Lytham the way he did last weekend, he should also go very close there.

Also, your assessment is certainly not fair. Tiger was playing at Carnoustie in 2007 and even at his very best would not have stood a chance at Birkdale in 2008 due to the conditions. Lee's best would only have been No 2 in the rankings if Tiger had still been up around 18pts in the owgr. Padraig's peak of No 3 would actually have been No 2 if it had happened in the last couple of years.

i said it wasnt fair.. and not my assesment but most peoples.

lee is up 16 wins on poddy and 8 on major tours. lee has the better record bar major wins. thats the fact of it, Poddy has threatened randomly this year- but lee lets be honest played some of the best golf both majors this year and has been over the last 3 years as well

All ifs and buts really.

I'd have to say I think the PGA is a poor major. High time they created a nomadic major as there is far too much emphasis on America.

mystiroakey wrote:tinmar read my post if you honestly believe that.

everyone knows that over the carrers westy has been above poddy and that is with a massive slump in the middle. Westys record is superiorin everything bar the major wins- but all the same the major wins trump everything- naturally! poddy deserves his dues. But the fact is if westy did win a few - westy will go down as a true great- and above poddy- I dont wanna sound unfair to poddy but that really is the fact of it

You're wrong and massively so in my opinion. Padraig has struggled for the last few years but finally seems to be coming out of it. The fact that Lee's peak has coincided with Padraig's struggles has completely distorted your views.

no i am not wrong in the slightest.

its fact- 16 more wins. it doesnt lie at all

super_realist wrote:Of course, you can be 'great' for a season, but that doesn't make you 'a great'.

I remember when David Howell was great for a season, a truly world class season, but he'll never be a great.

Aside from Tiger and Nick Price, Harrington is the only golfer in 20 years to win consecutive majors. He will go down as a very good golfer.

Super - PGA is a great major in terms of strength of field.

Majors are funny things at this point.

They just are.

As has been discussed here before one only needs to host a tournament the exact same week as the US Masters, promise every golfer a $1 million appearance fee, with the winner getting $50 million. Watch the boys line up.

mystiroakey wrote:i said it wasnt fair.. and not my assesment but most peoples.

lee is up 16 wins on poddy and 8 on major tours. lee has the better record bar major wins. thats the fact of it, Poddy has threatened randomly this year- but lee lets be honest played some of the best golf both majors this year and has been over the last 3 years as well

You're English so I presume your "most people" would be English also. I'm trying to be fair about this here. I'm Irish and a lot of Irish people I know would consider Padraig to be far ahead of Lee. I actually think this would be unfair on Lee. Maybe, for an unbiased opinion, the American view should be considered.

Lee has played some of the best golf in both Majors this year but so has Padraig. Lee is two shots ahead for the 144 holes played and both players missed a huge number of makeable putts.

Not sure what the argument is here...............of course Harrington has had a "great" career. Westwood has also had a "great career".......................obvious Harri has overshadowed LW in the Majors while LW has had a far superior career to Harri when you exclude the Majors...........

If both were to retire tomorrow, it would be hard to choose which one had a "better career".......................

poddy is miles ahead of lee- thats fact.

we are talking ifs and buts- if westy had won 2 or 3 majors he would be rated very highly amongst the gofling world and go down as a great. and above poddy!! That would be the american view- i garantee it

you have to stop talking about the comparable stats - major records are spot on, rankings lee trumps poddy, wins lee trumps him massively, major tour wins again.

But the only important stat here is majors!! Poddy is the main man.. This is all a theoritical discussion. You came out saying the stats are similar and everyone needs to use the internet- We all do, but your wrong, lees are just simply better tis all!

mystiroakey wrote:poddy is miles ahead of lee- thats fact.

we are talking ifs and buts- if westy had won 2 or 3 majors he would be rated very highly amongst the gofling world and go down as a great. and above poddy!! That would be the american view- i garantee it

you have to stop talking about the comparable stats - major records are spot on, rankings lee trumps poddy, wins lee trumps him massively, major tour wins again.

But the only important stat here is majors!! Poddy is the main man.. This is all a theoritical discussion. You came out saying the stats are similar and everyone needs to use the internet- We all do, but your wrong, lees are just simply better tis all!

If Westwood had the majors I think even Irish people would agree he had a superior career.

An interesting quirk of Lee's record is that the biggest proportion of his wins came before the slump. 75% of his wins on the European Tour came at a time when he wasn't a factor in the Majors at all. I think we would all agree that the best years of Lee's career have been the last four years. Yet, he's only won six times on Tour in that period compared with 16 times before his slump. If you had compared their records in 2008, it wouldn't have been even remotely close despite Lee having more wins even at that time. It is Lee's great play in the Majors since then that has deservedly got him rated so highly now.

Padraig has also had over 30 2nd place finishes in his career. I accept that if both players had no Majors that Lee would be ahead but only slightly. If Lee wins his Major, I would include him in a group with Padraig, Jim Furyk and Retief Goosen for the past 15 years. Sergio & Monty would also be there if only they had a Major. The only players I would rate higher would be Mickelson, Singh & Els, probably in that order. Tiger Woods is obviously way out ahead.

I can't think of anyone else with 3 majors that takes as much stick as Poddy does. I'm thinking back to some of the vitriol dished out 2 years ago when he was a Captains pick. Yes he had been in a slump but he clearly had/has something mentally that makes him competitive. I think it's so hard to compare the 2 because their relative strengths and weaknesses are so different.

I actually like listening to Poddy....."Majors are actually easier to win because 90% of the field don't believe they can win"...True, simple yet brilliant!!


For the record I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why LW shouldn't win a major in the next 3-4 years, indeed I'd be more shocked if he didn't contend in at least half of them.

Oh and also for the record I'm Scottish so the whole "I'm English Lee is the best/I'm Irish Poddy is the best" doesn't come into it (clearly Lawrie & Monty were better than both :-O )

Tinmar the good thing about comparing westy and poddy is that they are of a similar age so comparing records makes good sense.

However 16 wins is a very big difference. there is no slightly about it.
on the ther hand 3 majors isnt just a difference its a defining difference.

This shouldnt really be a discussion about poddy V lee. Poddy comes up alot and maybe unfairly. He deserves praise

Jas, the stick padraig got as a captains pick wasn't due to his major runs (which are irrelevant in Ryder cup, due it not being strokeplay,( just ask Cocknose Woods and Mickelson, or conversely Garcia and Poulter) and all to do with his poor form amd awful ryder cup record.

JAS by the way.

who do you rate better monty or lawrie?

mystiroakey wrote:no i am not wrong in the slightest.

its fact- 16 more wins. it doesnt lie at all

You are wrong 14 of westwoods victories were on the Japan, Australasia, Asia or Sunshine tours. Wow.

Westwood has been a pro for two more years than Harrington.

Harrington has won more than double the PGA tour events than Westwood has won and three more majors.

The only thing Westwood has over harrington is 8 more euro tour events.

Which would you prefer 8 more euro tour events or 3 more PGA tour events and three majors.

Sorry lads Westwood hasn't got anything on Harringtons career. Doesn't even come close.

mystiroakey wrote:Tinmar the good thing about comparing westy and poddy is that they are of a similar age so comparing records makes good sense.

However 16 wins is a very big difference. there is no slightly about it.
on the ther hand 3 majors isnt just a difference its a defining difference.

This shouldnt really be a discussion about poddy V lee. Poddy comes up alot and maybe unfairly. He deserves praise

To be honest, my annoyance is directed more at the way Padraig comes up in these discussions about Majors and their value. For some reason, his name often seems to get lumped in with Lawrie, Beem, Curtis, Micheel, Hamilton, North, etc. This makes no sense and fails to take any account of overall Major records, world ranking history and overall tournament records.

Comparing Monty with Lawrie is not the same as comparing Westwood with Harrington, much as some people seem to think it is. Lawrie has had a very good career but his best ever ranking is No 29. Harrington has spent over 300 weeks in the Top 10.

guns

your reading stats wrong. majors count on both tours.

westy has 16 more wins and 8 more major tour wins.

westy has 11 more standatf euro wins

westy is younger-

poddy has 3 more majors than westy .

they both have 2 standard pga tour wins

you are tripling up poddies 3 major wins.

I find it very strange that anyone might dismiss Harrington as anything other than a great player. Even without his 3 majors.

SmithersJones wrote:I find it very strange that anyone might dismiss Harrington as anything other than a great player. Even without his 3 majors.

That's exactly my point.

yeah i understand your frustration Tinmar. Poddys a top golfer that is has been proven at the highest level 3 times, and that is really all that matters.

Harrington has been improving steadily coming into the B open, major number 4 on the way?

not if westy has something to say about it

He is two years younger but he has been a pro two years longer than Harrington.

Westwood has only been European tour player of the year and euro tour order of merit winner Harrington has been euro Tour player of the year euro order of merit winner, PGA player of the year and PGA tour player of the year.

Even though the majors count on both tours Harrington has still won more PGA tour events so it's a moot point.

"Harrington is the only player in the world to have been partnered with Tiger Woods in a tournament five or more times and to outscore him. Harrington has a 68.83 average in six rounds, compared with Woods' average score of 69.50. The rest of the world's top players averaged over 70." - Wikipedia

Whatever way you spin it Harringtons carrer comes out on top.

or donald , or poulter, or lewis, or rose, or fisher, or hoover, or rock, or davies, or some random unkown offcourse grrrrr

Thomond wrote:

super_realist wrote:Of course, you can be 'great' for a season, but that doesn't make you 'a great'.

I remember when David Howell was great for a season, a truly world class season, but he'll never be a great.

Aside from Tiger and Nick Price, Harrington is the only golfer in 20 years to win consecutive majors. He will go down as a very good golfer.

When you say consecutive do you mean defend a major title or as I'm interpreting it one after the other. If it's the latter the. You missed out Phil Mickleson. He won the 05 PGA and the 06 Masters. Its partly what makes his screw up on 18 at the US Open even more calamitous as that would have been 3 consecutive and set him up for the Mickleslam

GunsGerms wrote:He is two years younger but he has been a pro two years longer than Harrington.

Westwood has only been European tour player of the year and euro tour order of merit winner Harrington has been euro Tour player of the year euro order of merit winner, PGA player of the year and PGA tour player of the year.

Even though the majors count on both tours Harrington has still won more PGA tour events so it's a moot point.

"Harrington is the only player in the world to have been partnered with Tiger Woods in a tournament five or more times and to outscore him. Harrington has a 68.83 average in six rounds, compared with Woods' average score of 69.50. The rest of the world's top players averaged over 70." - Wikipedia

Whatever way you spin it Harringtons carrer comes out on top.

what is it now that you dont understand guns?

offcourse poddies carrer comes out on top- that has never been the discussion. I think you still dont understand how these things work. But i am sure you will figure it out one day. He have been dismissing majors in this discsusion- its all based on ifs and buts and a theoritical position.
Thereby both have won 2 pga events, westy 22 euro- poddy 11, other poddy 10 and westy 15. westys wins is far superior

i think everyone will agree that Westwood has underachieved and Harro has overachieved.lee a better player but Pad has the better career so far.

"everyone knows that over the carrers westy has been above Poddy"

So even though Harrington has had a better career Westwood is a better golfer is that your point? If so that's so pretty odd logic.

"I think you don't understand how these things work"

Are you tired or something?

"Westys record is superiorin everything bar the major wins"

This is clearly not correct. He only comes out on top in Euro tour events excluding minor tours.